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Truss: Aviation Safety Regulation Review

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Truss: Aviation Safety Regulation Review

Old 15th Jun 2014, 07:42
  #921 (permalink)  
 
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Wow ..the NEW definition...!!

Ploughing thru the AsRR subs...some good reading in there.

And then you come to the CAsA sub..Dont they have a lot to say/for about themselves.? Jeez we're lucky

Apart from 6.2 as an upchucker (bucket required), and there are others,,,I just loved the new definition for "polishing the turd"....

....A HELPFUL THEMATIC GLOSS....aka the shiny hand polished BS one expects from CAsA.
CLASSIC...!!
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 08:38
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ASRR report

A breakup of the released submissions reveals that there are over 30% [one-in-three] that wished the submissions to remain confidential.

Why is this the case?? A breakup of this shows the principle source of the submissions.

Definitely good reading.

casa and atsb are not off the hook and it is up to Minister Truss to get this right and go the full "mile", not draw up short now.

Up to you Mr. Truss and don't depend on your minions.
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 08:52
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6.2
Yep like prosecute a 70 plus year old because you have a set against him not once not twice but 4 times.

Then you don't do anything about a person signing out defects and ADs when the person not a lame a ame not a nothing what did casa do. Nothing.



Or how about this one on damp.

Convicted ( pleaded guilty ) for having growing drugs (14 plants plus extra stuff ) no conviction recorded by the court and what have casa done.

NOTHING.
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 10:18
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CASA and it's effects.

My dealings with CASA have led to major depression and massive loss. My life is now a misery controlled by medication and hope. In the UK they have a law covering Corporate Manslaughter. Perhaps Aust needs Corporate Bullying.
I'm history, but this should not happen to anyone else. The skull and the GWM need to be held to account, held responsible, fired and charged for a multitude of offences under the Act and criminal law.
Never should this happen to anyone again.
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 10:26
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Jingle

I feel for you. I have so much on them that if they come at me I'll smash them again.
I might add with the above post they tried 4 times to prosecute him and 4 times they lost. How ever it cost him a fortune to defend him self.
They scrum people that can't make it into the real world. One awi I know grounds aircraft if the brake rotors are under size. Don't matter if they over size at the check and go under in service they still legal till the next service.

If you are in Nsw you may have a case against them. I don't know about over states.
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 21:17
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Trouble at Mill.

Yes Minister, we do appear to have a problem of epic proportions. No sir, we are not exaggerating, in fact your review, even though the terms of reference were very narrow and limiting, has provided a picture of a desperate industry, rapidly approaching crisis. Yes, there are indeed some major items which will be addressed and for that we thank you. But while industry patiently waits for those changes to take place, would you consider an embargo on any and all CASA actions against companies and individuals.

The hiatus need not be lengthy; just long enough for sane, independent, impartial assessment to be made on the merits of any CASA case. The CVD matter provides the quintessential example; flawed logic, flawed evidence, flawed motivation supported by public money against a few individuals. There is no logical reason to expend those monies, simply to cause untold stress and to wreak havoc on the lives of ordinary, hard working Australian families. It is not an isolated case; there are many more hidden beneath the CASA mirror.

It is certain that Forsyth and his panel have been privy to at least some of the industry woes, even though they were outside his ToR; Senators of the Pel Air inquiry have equally pertinent information, certainly enough to justify a brief period of peace, during the transition. Even if only to ensure those proposed actions are legally 'safe and sound'.

The proposed changes whilst important will not remove existing radical problems: safety is at risk; we were lucky, very lucky with the Virgin ATR. Good luck cannot be relied on to cure self inflicted damage, such as:-

- Incorrect, unnecessary, potentially lethal changes to the way aircraft are operated through the pet notions or inexperienced assumptions of inept flight operations staff being inflicted through SOP and 'modified' manufacturers check procedures. (Truly alarming).

- The engineers who maintain aircraft cannot be expected to continue to do their important work while continuously glancing over their shoulder to make sure 'the man' is not watching, taking notes and looking for half an excuse to prosecute.

- The many individuals who's lives and careers have been decimated without a shred of evidence coming before a court, John Quadrio is one of many as is Dominic James.

Just put the brakes on Minister, just for while – until sanity and balance return and everyone has had a chance to achieve a state of mind where change can be effectively made though good will, rather than through a jack boot. This is an angry industry, patiently waiting for real change. Just as it would be an error to tease a large hungry dog with a small bone, so it would be to further torment industry.

Put the brakes on Warren, call off the dogs and lets see if we cannot get this industry going forward again, in concert with rather than diametrically opposed to the regulator which exists to serve it, not rule it.

Selah.

Last edited by Kharon; 15th Jun 2014 at 21:32.
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 22:45
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Personally, I would throw open every position in CASA and make existing employees reapply for their jobs.

If Minister Truss can't get this right, then there is no hope for him or his government.
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 23:34
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Personally, I would throw open every position in CASA and make existing employees reapply for their jobs.

If Minister Truss can't get this right, then there is no hope for him or his government.
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Old 16th Jun 2014, 05:46
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Take a bow industry; take two, if it pleases.

Well done industry – some very adroit, succinct, educated comment made. The amount of work done and the care taken is impressive. I reckon the Rev. Forsyth was handed about a million bucks worth of first class industry expert advice, gratis. Submissions to the WLR speak highly of the dedication and professionalism entrenched within.

The patterns which emerge from the submissions are clear; it's interesting though that only the 'professional pilot' groups had anything significant to say about the ATSB, others made mention but the core issues were taken head on and best addressed by the following: - AFAP - : - AIPA- : -VIPA.

The ATSB submission, like Oliver simply asks for more porridge and can be as easily dismissed as the pathetic (bloody disgraceful) – press release – doled out as an 'interim' report on the ATR incident. Annexe 19 - indeed.

It seems that most agree that the ATSB is, essentially a viable outfit with some good crew, a modicum of residual respect; and, is salvageable, despite the 'aberrations' of the past. But I can't see how anything else but independence in the manner of the NTSB can be effective. The hated Miller review and the bastardised MoU rightfully get some diplomatic wet lettuce, but the message comes through clear enough, for gummint work anyway. General consensus seems to be that the Forsyth report recommendations 3, 4, 5 and 11 are generally acceptable, workable and heading in the right direction.

3. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigates as many fatal accidents in the sport and recreational aviation sector as its resources will allow.

4. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority utilise the provision in their bilateral Memorandum of Understanding to accredit CASA observers to ATSB investigations.

5. The Australian Government appoints an additional Australian Transport Safety Bureau Commissioner with aviation operational and safety management experience.

11. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority amend the wording of their existing Memorandum of Understanding to make it more definitive about interaction, coordination, and cooperation.
The ones which may provoke discussion and dissent are 19 and 20.

19. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau transfers information from Mandatory Occurrence Reports to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, without redaction or de-identification.
I'd like to see this happen, eventually; but for the while I feel that industry nerves endings are frayed and patience stretched a little too thin. Perhaps when faith can be placed in the hands of a truly reformed, mature regulator; then. But right now it requires a blind leap of faith. We shall see.

20. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau transfers its safety education function to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority.
Now I can't make up my mind on this one; instinctively, I'm a'gin it. CASA have made total bloody fools of themselves in the ATO personal development program and a dogs breakfast of just about every 'educational' program they have so far attempted. But, has ATSB the resources, skills and core 'mission' to get the job done right. The old 'crash comic' was a ripper, I know I learned heaps from it – back in the day. Perhaps this could be an alternative – ATSB investigation, translated to objective 'training' modules, cheap, cheerful and rewarding. Dunno – but it makes my old wooden head ache.....

Good job you guys and girls {inserts round of applause, big smile and Choccy frogs all round}.

Anyway – enough of reading submissions for me, for the while at least. Maybe some telly a couple of cold ones after a romp with the hounds. Ayup, a night off is declared, (midnight oil placed firmly in the cupboard).

Toot toot.

Last edited by Kharon; 16th Jun 2014 at 06:03. Reason: 2 4 1 up there Sunny
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Old 16th Jun 2014, 09:45
  #930 (permalink)  
 
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Plain English anyone

If any one wonders why CASA cannot produce a simple and plain set of safety standards, you only have to look at the CASA submission to the safety review to find the answer. It is amazing that this convoluted piece of nonsense was allowed to see the light of day without someone taking a red pen to the draft. It is clearly written by a lawyer, with its dense, turgid and impenetrable style. No prize for guessing who that lawyer may (004wercras got it right I think).Why use one word when you can use 10? Why use plain words when you can use archaic legal jargon that gives your submission “gravitas” (not).

Take a look at the sentence structure. Full of parenthetical phrases that qualify every word written. By the time you get to the end of a sentence, you forget what it was about. I particularly like the 91 word sentence in paragraph 3.4 which says (I’m not quite sure what it says but it sounds impressive):

“But whilst other considerations will properly be subordinated to any safety-related considerations with which the former are irreconcilably inconsistent, where two (or more) alternative courses of action are open to CASA, each equally conducive to optimal safety outcomes, but one less burdensome or economically problematic than another for a person whose rights, interests or legitimate expectations will be affected by CASA’s actions, CASA is effectively obliged to entertain and, in the absence of any other legitimate and legally sustainable reasons for not doing so, to adopt the less burdensome option”. To be sure!

As can be seen for the quote above, sentences in the submission run on for 100s of words. Whole paragraphs consist of a single sentence. Unbelievable. In para 4.2 a sentence is 109 words long. In paragraph 4.8 a sentence is 97 words long. In paragraphs 5.3 and 6.13 the paragraphs are just one long sentence, each with more than 170 words. The submission is riddled with such examples. The average sentence in the submission is probably 40 or 50 words long. How can this be? Doesn’t anyone in CASA have ANY idea about writing in simple English. Do they just allow the lawyers to write what they want without any check for sense, grammar or comprehensibility. Given the fact one of the lawyers in CASA was Australia’s representative in Montreal many years ago, it is perhaps not surprising that the submission is written as if it were a preamble to a Convention. See paragraph 6.13 where the CASA is “assiduously assuring” transparency and “developing, implementing and continually refining ‘pre-decisional’ review processes”. Check the wonderful linguistic symmetry in paragraph 91 where the Review Terms of reference are said to “contemplate a multitude of multifaceted, timely and, in certain cases, contested and understandably controversial issues”. But CASA acknowledges that “the preparation of adequately developed responsive comments that are, at once, concise and cogent has been a daunting task”. And CASA clearly has failed miserably in this task.

And obviously no one bothered to correct the submission for errors - no doubt they were too busy making important policy decisions. See for example para 2.4 “All these educative are to be performed...”. What does this mean? Seems they omitted the word “functions” after educative - but who knows? And look at para 5.3 (that wonderfully succinct sentence that consists of 173 words - “the volume of material that may bare on a round consideration of these issues”. Surely they meant “that may bear”? But perhaps “bare” is correct after all, given that it means “naked” or “nude” - just as this submission is naked or nude of any meaningful content. And what is a “round consideration”? Is it different from an ordinary consideration or a square consideration (at least square rhymes with bare).

So do not wonder why CASA can’t prepare standards in plain simple English. Just read this submission and you will have your answer why they can't.
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Old 16th Jun 2014, 10:40
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Borto, mate,

thats the whole point, if the punters understood it, we wouldn't have to employ a bunch of people to tell them what it means???
....according to them???....which may not necessarily mean what he thinks over there???....

but what would he know???...the bloke over here thinks their both wrong....

so go back to the first bloke....Na, sorry, he's been moved, now this other bloke who thinks their all wrong...

bloody hell I've rewritten this ten times now I'm back to the original!!!...Hang on this is costing $190 per hour!!!!

What a Nice little earner
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Old 16th Jun 2014, 11:03
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“But whilst other considerations will properly be subordinated to any safety-related considerations with which the former are irreconcilably inconsistent, where two (or more) alternative courses of action are open to CASA, each equally conducive to optimal safety outcomes, but one less burdensome or economically problematic than another for a person whose rights, interests or legitimate expectations will be affected by CASA’s actions, CASA is effectively obliged to entertain and, in the absence of any other legitimate and legally sustainable reasons for not doing so, to adopt the less burdensome option”. To be sure!
Use the most cost effective solution where two or more options exist offering the same levels of safety?

But I guess it could mean whatever they want it to mean.
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Old 16th Jun 2014, 11:42
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Anal dribble...

3.4 The person that wrote that has missed his/her true calling.
Should bugger off to the BBC and try for a job as a contract script writer for "Yes, Minister"

Will need to rewrite "CAsA,The Musical" ( banned from Prune) to "CAsA The Horror Movie" if Warren doesn't give the place an enema and do some serious corridor cleansing of (Non) Aviation House.

Do they put some mind-bending vapour in the airconditioning in the silly place?.

We, the people have long had more than enough of this meaningless, expensive rubbish.
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Old 16th Jun 2014, 11:52
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Yes minister quotes

Couple of quotes

WRITING ON THE WALL

"Civil Service language: 'Sometimes one is forced to consider the possibility that affairs are being conducted in a manner which, all things being considered and making all possible allowances is, not to put too fine a point on it, perhaps not entirely straightforward.
Translation: 'You are lying'."

"The Prime Minister doesn't want the truth, he wants something he can tell Parliament."
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Old 16th Jun 2014, 11:58
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Like shutting down an airline on Christmas Eve?
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Old 16th Jun 2014, 12:28
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Boratous, because Kharon is taking the night off I pinched a bag of his Choccy frogs and I am sending them to you! When you see the Styx Ferry pull up please don't panic, the Ferryman often runs odd jobs on behalf of the IOS on his downtime!! Your post has to be one of the funniest, astute and most accurate posts that has tickled my fancy in ages
The CAsA response was unequivocally the biggest load of complete and utter bull**** that I have read in a long long time. These guys must be either sniffing each other's underwear or snorting ICE 3 times per day. And the taxpayer is footing the bill for the excessive salaries of these knobs
Can't wait til the Wichdoctors ramblings in the report are then taken by the overweight Board Chairman and turned into some glossy brochure or some other nonsense and then on-sold to some third world country as a 'model of best practise Australian style'!

Maybe we should contact ISIS on Twatter or Farcebook and ask them to fix the CAsA problem once they have finished their work in Iraq??
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Old 16th Jun 2014, 22:32
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What a great way to start a day.

When brother Sunfish # 918 manfully struggled through the whole CASA offering to 6.2 without up-chucking, I was impressed. Impressed that anyone had actually bothered to read and try to make sense of the wretched thing, let alone have the fortitude to raise issue. The 6.2 part which nearly did for him was classic; the rest IMO was equally 'amusing' and provided lots of first rate ammunition for a rainy day. The problem was whether to use it then and there or to keep it, for best.....

The fine post by Boratous (legend) is a brilliant opening gambit and spot on for my money. The sub text, standing alone, is a masterly demonstration of how to blow away the smoke, cover the mirrors and turn over the rocks. All there and very nicely done...

I know how much time it takes to deconstruct a tome like the CASA submission, it's not a job for those with weak stomachs, nor those who just read the 'words'. Firstly you must be prepared to dedicate a few hours of your short life to plough through, then digest it all, then; if the muse descends and ennui has not carried you off, refine the thoughts to a few short paragraphs for the enjoyment of the IOS. Well done that 'man'.

If you get a minute or three, try the Boratous system on a paragraph or two. It's rewarding and it will define, in a 100 words or less, why the Bored, the management and probably 30% of the CASA crew have to go; and go now. You see boys and girls – they actually understand the submission, support it and unashamedly believe it's righteous. Just ask Wodger, master wordsmith and plagiarist, probably keeps a copy in the dunny. There's a couple of wannabe wordsmiths currently languishing in the halls of Sleepy Hollow; some of their 'work' is equally risible, disingenuous and would be comic, if folks took it apart, rather than read and believe it to be 'the' new gospel. It is all very unfortunate, but true. We must hope that Truss sees it for what it is. Sunny has bagged 6.2, find your favourite part and have a go. Definitely more to follow on this topic. More demolition after this message from our sponsors.

004 – Cheers for covering the night shift, very much obliged to you sir. You are correct; brother Boratous need not fear the ferry, honoured guests and friends are always made most welcome.

Toot toot.

Last edited by Kharon; 16th Jun 2014 at 22:50. Reason: Gabbing on the blower. Can't multi task for nuts.
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Old 16th Jun 2014, 23:32
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CASA submission.

As requested, a user friendly version of the CASA submission to the Forsyth review.

From Zippyshare – so only click the big red - "Download Now" - button, to avoid spam and other associated necessary evils. Despite some 'adjustments' it is still a large file and may take a minute or two to download.

Happy copy and pasting.

P6. a.k.a. Ping, ping.
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Old 17th Jun 2014, 02:05
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MoAS strikes again: Big aRse small s (for SAFETY)???

Excellent post Boratous, definitely one for the archives…

“If any one wonders why CASA cannot produce a simple and plain set of safety standards, you only have to look at the CASA submission to the safety review to find the answer. It is amazing that this convoluted piece of nonsense was allowed to see the light of day without someone taking a red pen to the draft. It is clearly written by a lawyer, with its dense, turgid and impenetrable style.”

Some other casual observations on the almost totally unreadable, irrelevant, substandard & taxpayer funded #sub239 (presumably co-authored by Hoodoo Voodoo & Flying Fiend)….

To begin with Fort Fumble must have taken up the Forsyth offer for late submissions as the PDF version was produced on the 06 February, one week after the due by date. One wonders if this was not another show of contempt, much like in the Senate, at saluting the good panel with the proverbial middle finger…

Herr Skull: “I will not indulge this IOS instigated propaganda with a timely response as it will all come to nought”

But then word got leaked that there was over 200 submissions (& growing) that all firmly pointed the finger at FF as the true axis of evil and industry woes…“Herr DAS we may have a problem”. A problem which was amplified by, until recently the outspoken but largely supportive AAAA, with their submission which was published on here a day after the closing date.

Next OBS is the electronic size of #sub239, it is by far and away the largest (nearly 14MB) with the next closest being the AAAA submission (8MB), which interestingly enough was submitted exactly 200 subs before Fort Fumble’s piece of perverse ****e..

Some would say that the size is reflective of the FF need to protect their position (as in right of reply) and therefore you would expect a rather voluminous submission in response…right?? Errr…wrong! The FF cynical, submissive effort is only 24 pages long and the only reason the file is so big is that it is, in typical FF secret squirrel style, enshrouded in multi-layers of security presumably to stop the IOS easily (doing a Wodger) and plagiarising/quoting useful bits of aviation regulation folklore…

Moving along…

Kharon: "...If you get a minute or three, try the Boratous system on a paragraph or two. It's rewarding and it will define, in a 100 words or less, why the Bored, the management and probably 30% of the CASA crew have to go; and go now. You see boys and girls – they actually understand the submission, support it and unashamedly believe it's righteous. Just ask Wodger, master wordsmith and plagiarist, probably keeps a copy in the dunny. There's a couple of wannabe wordsmiths currently languishing in the halls of Sleepy Hollow; some of their 'work' is equally risible, disingenuous and would be comic, if folks took it apart, rather than read and believe it to be 'the' new gospel..."

Still working on defragging the complete FF dismissive missive but in the meantime going off Bora’s quoted piece from, what I presume to be, the FF address of ToR 1…

“• the structures, effectiveness and processes of all agencies involved in aviation safety;”

…where we see FF begin to weave their lies, deceit and bulldust under the veil of safety (MOAS)…




And so it goes on and on…

Quote from the AAAA submission (page 4-5) could be equally applied to this disgusting document…

“…The latest glossy publication from CASA – the inaugural Aviation Safety Yearbook – is an excellent example of a costly exercise that portrays CASA’s performance as rosy, when the message from the industry coal-face is jarringly different. Such a publication contributes nothing to aviation safety or the reputation of the regulator. It is a cynical and embarrassing publication if it has been released to try and project a better image of CASA, its management and its Board at a time when the government has instituted a significant review into that and other aviation agencies.
The systems-based ‘futureproofing’ of an organisation described above reduces the risk of any individual or group taking an organisation in a direction where its deviancy can be normalised, its culture corrupted and its essential relationship with industry junked...”

The AAAA submission then goes on to say…

“In the case of CASA, however, the relationship with industry and objective performance of key functions has degraded to the point where it is critical for a significant change of senior personnel to signal a resetting of the aviation regulatory agenda and a new start to CASA’s relationship with industry.
This change must include both the existing Board (who have demonstrated no industry leadership and no strategic grasp on CASA), as well as the top two to three levels of CASA management that has created outcomes that are now pulling down the safety culture of the entire industry.”

which very much reinforces the “K” quote (above) i.e. the Bored & the Exec management (at least) have got to go ASAP (like yesterday Miniscule).

Finally for still further evidence (if indeed it is still needed) of the truly open contempt that these jokers in CAsA have for all their minority of critics, go no further than the final page of the submission, not labelled 'Summary' or 'Conclusion' but ‘Concluding Remarks’…



Kind of says it all really…

Ps Thank you PAIN I can use that…MTF!

Last edited by Sarcs; 17th Jun 2014 at 02:17.
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Old 17th Jun 2014, 02:33
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I nominate this as the longest sentence in the CASA submission:
5.3 Given the significance and complexity of the issues involved, and the volume of material that may bare on a round consideration of these issues, CASA looks forward to the opportunity to discuss a range of matters germane to regulatory reform and implementation with members of the Review Panel, in the course of which additional pertinent information and supportive materials can be provided, along with responses to any specific questions Review Panel members may have about:

• the processes by which CASA develops, consults on and finalises changes to aviation safety regulations and other legislative instruments (including Civil Aviation Orders);

• planned and proposed improvements to these processes generally, and in relation to legislation related to the activities of particular sectors of the aviation industry;

• the identification and reduction of costs and other administrative burdens involved in the implementation of new legislation, and the conduct of operations under that legislation;

• priorities for future regulatory development and implementation strategies; and

• the suitability and appropriateness of existing and anticipated Australian aviation safety regulations, benchmarked against other comparable overseas jurisdiction.
Over 170 words.

Translation: The regulatory reform program will drift along forever.

The scariest thing is that the government is going to continue feeding this Frankenstein around $20 million a year, indefinitely, to continue building a regulatory paradise for the aviation industry in Australia.

Any advance on 170?
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