Truss: Aviation Safety Regulation Review
letters and all that....
Been there done that suiya and sunny...either direct to the minister, or via the local member ( you know the one who wants your vote )...but has never been able to produce answer..!! Intergalactic black hole.
If it is serious sh*t, they may ,or may not pose the Q to CAsA ...who will just make up a story to make it go away.
I did get one letter from some obscure plonker in DoTR , who had some non aviation managerial sub-title and the gist of the answer went something like this..."Hullo , dont you know Australia is very flat, has fantastic weather and we have the worlds best ball busting record for aviation safety!!??.Have a nice day".
Top stuff!! Nothing about the issue at hand,no questions answered..just the classical bureaucratic, time wasting brush off.
And as for Huffy Puffy showing his proper BIG R creds ...everybody in this industry is an idiot. Bit of a giveaway that.
The ASRR requested submissions and Im sure that from the many lodged, there are constructive suggestions on the changes that should be made.
The Panel didnt asked to be spoon fed on how to do it...they are to assess the responses and make recommendations on the changes that SHOULD be made...BUT will they.
If the elected Minister doesnt have the backbone, teeth and interest to drive them home/ ensure that it happens...then there is NO hope.
I have my money on warren truss, the bridge girder as the only thing with any steel.
There have been countless recommendations for change to over the decades CAsA but, like suggestions from the ATSB...NOTHING HAPPENS.
If it is serious sh*t, they may ,or may not pose the Q to CAsA ...who will just make up a story to make it go away.
I did get one letter from some obscure plonker in DoTR , who had some non aviation managerial sub-title and the gist of the answer went something like this..."Hullo , dont you know Australia is very flat, has fantastic weather and we have the worlds best ball busting record for aviation safety!!??.Have a nice day".
Top stuff!! Nothing about the issue at hand,no questions answered..just the classical bureaucratic, time wasting brush off.
And as for Huffy Puffy showing his proper BIG R creds ...everybody in this industry is an idiot. Bit of a giveaway that.
The ASRR requested submissions and Im sure that from the many lodged, there are constructive suggestions on the changes that should be made.
The Panel didnt asked to be spoon fed on how to do it...they are to assess the responses and make recommendations on the changes that SHOULD be made...BUT will they.
If the elected Minister doesnt have the backbone, teeth and interest to drive them home/ ensure that it happens...then there is NO hope.
I have my money on warren truss, the bridge girder as the only thing with any steel.
There have been countless recommendations for change to over the decades CAsA but, like suggestions from the ATSB...NOTHING HAPPENS.
Who called “everybody in industry” an “idiot”, aroa?
There is a bunch of people who keep doing the same thing over and over again without learning any lessons. For my part, I consider that bunch of people to be idiots (or insane). But that’s not “everybody in industry”.
It’s pointless writing to a Laborial or any of their pet officials about aviation regulation. To a Laborial, “credible” means “might affect our political fortunes”. The people who write about matters relating to aviation regulation usually vote Laborial, so there’s little to be gained from pretending to care about the subject matter of their correspondence. By definition, therefore, almost all correspondence relating to aviation regulation is “incredible” and may safely be ignored.
I have my money on you losing your money. Nothing personal, mind, and in a way I hope to be proved wrong. But investment decisions must be made using the head, not the heart.
The Socialist Agrarian Party, of which the Minister is leader, has as much interest in and dedication to the encouragement and expansion of aviation in Australia as its Coalition and opposition partners. Have you not been paying attention for the last 20 or so years?
You evidently haven’t been invited to speak to the Panel yet.
Perhaps I’m an idiot because I’ve said this “for the last time” before: The only glimmer of hope is a ‘whole of industry’ approach to the non-major party aligned Senators post-1 July, urging them to follow Senator X’s lead on matters aviation. The Laborials will pretend to be vitally interested in and dedicated to the interests of the aviation industry in Australia, when the Laborials need the vote of the non-major partly aligned Senators and their vote is contingent upon action in relation to aviation regulation. Short of that, you might as well resign yourself to more of the same and stop bleating.
There is a bunch of people who keep doing the same thing over and over again without learning any lessons. For my part, I consider that bunch of people to be idiots (or insane). But that’s not “everybody in industry”.
It’s pointless writing to a Laborial or any of their pet officials about aviation regulation. To a Laborial, “credible” means “might affect our political fortunes”. The people who write about matters relating to aviation regulation usually vote Laborial, so there’s little to be gained from pretending to care about the subject matter of their correspondence. By definition, therefore, almost all correspondence relating to aviation regulation is “incredible” and may safely be ignored.
I have my money on warren truss …
The Socialist Agrarian Party, of which the Minister is leader, has as much interest in and dedication to the encouragement and expansion of aviation in Australia as its Coalition and opposition partners. Have you not been paying attention for the last 20 or so years?
The Panel didnt asked to be spoon fed on how to do it …
Perhaps I’m an idiot because I’ve said this “for the last time” before: The only glimmer of hope is a ‘whole of industry’ approach to the non-major party aligned Senators post-1 July, urging them to follow Senator X’s lead on matters aviation. The Laborials will pretend to be vitally interested in and dedicated to the interests of the aviation industry in Australia, when the Laborials need the vote of the non-major partly aligned Senators and their vote is contingent upon action in relation to aviation regulation. Short of that, you might as well resign yourself to more of the same and stop bleating.
why is it that you can never get an approval from CASA?
why has Canadian Owner Maintenance been in place in Canada for about 15 years now without incident and yet owner maintenance in australia is seen as a heinous crime? (although every owner I know except one does it )
why has CASA done all in its power for decades now to kill Australian aviation?
the guys who tried to build the eagle-x here are convinced that CASA's actions can only be explained logically if CASA was trying to shut them down.
The long held attitude to CASA assuming any risk has long been a serious impediment to any Australian based aviation operations. Have a look at the CASA v. HeviLIft Helicopters case in the Federal Court some years ago. It was about certifying the KA32A helicopter in Australia.
Tootle pip!!
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Casa are anti competitive
Spot on Leadie The GAF story is a shocker and I been told before Mahindra came in as white knight. AMROBA has lots of examples. Casa's complicate in the damage and fallout to industry. The ASRR must act to rid us of the evil empire now.
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108. The phrase “fit and proper person” carries no precise meaning and takes its meaning from its context, from the activities in which the person is engaged and the ends to be served by those activities: Australian Broadcasting Tribunal v Bond [1990] HCA 33; (1990) 170 CLR 321 at 380 per Toohey and Gaudron JJ. Whether a pilot is a fit and proper person is not to be measured by simply a consideration of whether they are competent to fly an aircraft but also requires consideration of their conduct “measured against the responsibilities, functions and duties of the holder of the [relevant] pilot licence” (Re Taylor and Department of Transport (1978) 1 ALD 312; Re Quadrio and  Civil Aviation Safety  Authority [2011] AATA 709 at [67]).
CASA are always right and if you skip past something that they have done that is incompetent, or you disagree with their BS, you are a not fit and proper person.
what a frankenstein the pollies in their ignorance have set upon us.
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Casa misuse of regs
Here is one of the basic misuse of power we have seen.
The AAT does not even have to abide by proper evidence rules either allowing a rogue regulator to produce rubbish argument to support a not a fit and proper person argument.
The current AAT case that was dismissed against avmed McSherry surrounds poor evidence.
Quadrio never got a proper chance with casa withholding evidence.
Anderson was faced with double jeopardy, if not quadruple jeopardy.
The AAT does not even have to abide by proper evidence rules either allowing a rogue regulator to produce rubbish argument to support a not a fit and proper person argument.
The current AAT case that was dismissed against avmed McSherry surrounds poor evidence.
Quadrio never got a proper chance with casa withholding evidence.
Anderson was faced with double jeopardy, if not quadruple jeopardy.
Last edited by Up-into-the-air; 17th Mar 2014 at 01:54. Reason: Clarity
there IS a cure, only I doubt that the industry has the guts to do it: go on strike, Kill everything from remote area tourism flights to the King Island crayfish trade. No exceptions. Stop the medical emergency flights as well. Shut it all down until there is a binding agreementf from both sides of Government to break up CASA and separate the roles of regulator and policeman, give ATSB back its full independence and implement the NZ version of FAA regulations.
Nothing less is going to save you. Creampuff is right, neither side of Government responds to rational argument. Kick them both in the balls if you want a result.
....or perhaps build a fighting fund and donate massively to both their political campaigns, they seem to be getting as greedy and corrupt as American politicians.
Nothing less is going to save you. Creampuff is right, neither side of Government responds to rational argument. Kick them both in the balls if you want a result.
....or perhaps build a fighting fund and donate massively to both their political campaigns, they seem to be getting as greedy and corrupt as American politicians.
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Watched a program on Nat geo last night about Bert Rutan and the development of his space vehicle, what vision and determination, what dedication.
Then I lay awake and thought where is the vision and determination gone in Australia, not just in aviation but in all areas of commerce, except perhaps for the legal profession.
Something like the space plane would never happen here, CAsA would kill it off before it even started.
Then I thought not just CAsA, the drive,focus and dedication of those employed in the process would be killed off by the unions.
The lawyers would have shut them down after an unfortunate industrial accident, and don't even mention the OH&S people!!..not a high vis on site anywhere.
Are we destined to be Coolies for the Chinese?
Then I lay awake and thought where is the vision and determination gone in Australia, not just in aviation but in all areas of commerce, except perhaps for the legal profession.
Something like the space plane would never happen here, CAsA would kill it off before it even started.
Then I thought not just CAsA, the drive,focus and dedication of those employed in the process would be killed off by the unions.
The lawyers would have shut them down after an unfortunate industrial accident, and don't even mention the OH&S people!!..not a high vis on site anywhere.
Are we destined to be Coolies for the Chinese?
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I wonder how far the idea of bungee jumping would have gone had the Australians thought of it first. The KIWI's get an idea and they are encouraged and given counsel on 'how to make it work', in Australia any idea is given the 'how can we stop this from working' treatment. How about jet boat white water use, Deer shooting from that same boat, manned inflatable balls rolling downhill and every other money making adventure idea.
CASA don't have any responsibility to foster and encourage general aviation and it's easier to just rid themselves of the affair by grounding every GA aircraft and industry in the Country. And we wonder why things work in NZ that don't work here. The industry has been financially and mentally broken without the means to form legally protect itself from the CASA predator.
CASA don't have any responsibility to foster and encourage general aviation and it's easier to just rid themselves of the affair by grounding every GA aircraft and industry in the Country. And we wonder why things work in NZ that don't work here. The industry has been financially and mentally broken without the means to form legally protect itself from the CASA predator.
Last edited by Frank Arouet; 17th Mar 2014 at 04:22. Reason: editing.
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Frank,
I agree, I get european backpackers walking past my house overseas.
When I ask them if they have been to Australia, they say yes but we left..
Too Boring, can't DO anything, too many rules.
I agree, I get european backpackers walking past my house overseas.
When I ask them if they have been to Australia, they say yes but we left..
Too Boring, can't DO anything, too many rules.
I theeeenk I know part of the solution to the problem. CASA was set up as a statutory corporation or suchlike. That meant that its employees are quasi public servants but not subject to the same discipines as true public servants.
This has allowed CASA to play fast and loose with both the government and aviaton community. When it suits them, they are public servants with all sorts of statutory jackboot powers, but without the straightjacket the public service act imposes on such persons.
When it suits them they are a corporation, free as air to do what they like including engaging in investigation and litigation techniques forbidden to the public service and police forces around the nation.
This is the classic "run with the hare and hunt with the hounds" situation. To put that another way, try sidling off to Montreal for a conference if you are a real public servant, the approvals process will generate half an inch thickness of paper.
The solution then is to abolish CASA, which can happen overnight. Allocate the regulation activities to a unit of the department of transport (or a ministry of aviation) and enforcement to a unit of the AFP.
This solution breaks the alleged "iron ring". If we then adopt the NZ FAA regulations and add a requirement that the regulations are to foster aviation, the job is done.
This has allowed CASA to play fast and loose with both the government and aviaton community. When it suits them, they are public servants with all sorts of statutory jackboot powers, but without the straightjacket the public service act imposes on such persons.
When it suits them they are a corporation, free as air to do what they like including engaging in investigation and litigation techniques forbidden to the public service and police forces around the nation.
This is the classic "run with the hare and hunt with the hounds" situation. To put that another way, try sidling off to Montreal for a conference if you are a real public servant, the approvals process will generate half an inch thickness of paper.
The solution then is to abolish CASA, which can happen overnight. Allocate the regulation activities to a unit of the department of transport (or a ministry of aviation) and enforcement to a unit of the AFP.
This solution breaks the alleged "iron ring". If we then adopt the NZ FAA regulations and add a requirement that the regulations are to foster aviation, the job is done.
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So many people can't be wrong.
Sunny, you are spot on sir, 100%, except for this point;
The word "alleged" is incorrect. There is an iron ring that operates with impunity, and when you combine that fact along with the rest of your post you have a clear description of what CASA is. So yes, the whole deck of cards needs to be smashed overnight, and the rusty iron ring shackles taken off industry once and for all.
I can't put enough emphasis on the fact that everyone needs to read Pro Aviations submission to the WLR. That's one of the few submissions that got through before the disgraceful government put the padlock on the rest of the submissions. Why read that submission? It is one of the most accurate pictures you will ever see that clearly shows why the current problems exist, the untold, unchecked and unbridled power that CASA has been given, and the ways in which they misuse it.
This solution breaks the alleged "iron ring".
I can't put enough emphasis on the fact that everyone needs to read Pro Aviations submission to the WLR. That's one of the few submissions that got through before the disgraceful government put the padlock on the rest of the submissions. Why read that submission? It is one of the most accurate pictures you will ever see that clearly shows why the current problems exist, the untold, unchecked and unbridled power that CASA has been given, and the ways in which they misuse it.
Pubes and Rubes..
Good one Sunny...you are right the APSC/ Aust Public Service Commission has a real "Code of Conduct" containing criminal provisions for illegal conduct for real public servants.
The CAsA code does not, and is a 'get out of jail free card' with just a bunch of motherhood rubbish that CAsA employees ignore with impunity..and a card nicely dealt by the "ceo" (sic) McComic to save a few. Not a fit and proper imo
Other Acts,... CAC Act, Admin Decisions (Judicial Review0, MLO etc... for CAsA ...phffft ! just ignore all that. What can the IOS do about it anyway.
Abolish CAsA...its the only way to go.!
And as for the locked up ASRR subs..way tooo many home truths, names and evidence of corruption, misfeasance and diverse assorted regulatory buggery to be seen in there. Best not spoil the Ministers lunch.
The CAsA code does not, and is a 'get out of jail free card' with just a bunch of motherhood rubbish that CAsA employees ignore with impunity..and a card nicely dealt by the "ceo" (sic) McComic to save a few. Not a fit and proper imo
Other Acts,... CAC Act, Admin Decisions (Judicial Review0, MLO etc... for CAsA ...phffft ! just ignore all that. What can the IOS do about it anyway.
Abolish CAsA...its the only way to go.!
And as for the locked up ASRR subs..way tooo many home truths, names and evidence of corruption, misfeasance and diverse assorted regulatory buggery to be seen in there. Best not spoil the Ministers lunch.
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You heard it here first....
I am told that I am mistaken.
I got the figure of $240,000,000 for the regulatory wet dream from elsewhere on here.
I am told that we actually don't know the figure but latest estimates have the number at over $300,000,000.
in round money that is a third of a billion dollars.
considering that prime minister abbott was lambasted in parliament today over cutting benefits to a thousand or so legacy kids one wonders why the liberals don't put the sword to all this as part of the red tape chopping exercise.
abolish casa and you'll just about be back in surplus.
I got the figure of $240,000,000 for the regulatory wet dream from elsewhere on here.
I am told that we actually don't know the figure but latest estimates have the number at over $300,000,000.
in round money that is a third of a billion dollars.
considering that prime minister abbott was lambasted in parliament today over cutting benefits to a thousand or so legacy kids one wonders why the liberals don't put the sword to all this as part of the red tape chopping exercise.
abolish casa and you'll just about be back in surplus.
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casa and atsb - The waste and failure to meet ICAO requirements
Have talked to the Member for Kooyong, Josh Frydenberg about this and he has casa on the list.
Remember though, this is largely industry money and in the 2012 year, $110m came from the Aviation fuel excise and $43m from Government under the casa Act of the total $153m casa spends.
So it is industry money [although ultimately paid for by the general public] we are talking about here.
AND the money has been wasted/ improperly used/"troughed"
Remember though, this is largely industry money and in the 2012 year, $110m came from the Aviation fuel excise and $43m from Government under the casa Act of the total $153m casa spends.
So it is industry money [although ultimately paid for by the general public] we are talking about here.
AND the money has been wasted/ improperly used/"troughed"
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the gentle tap on my head that said my original figure was mistaken suggested a question in parliament.
I'm thinking along the lines of
"madam speaker, my question is directed to the treasurer.
treasurer what has the total cost been so far for CASA's regulatory rewrite?
what is the projected final cost for this exercise?
what measurable benefit will be seen by the aviation industry for all of this expenditure?"
I wonder how we get it asked?
I'm thinking along the lines of
"madam speaker, my question is directed to the treasurer.
treasurer what has the total cost been so far for CASA's regulatory rewrite?
what is the projected final cost for this exercise?
what measurable benefit will be seen by the aviation industry for all of this expenditure?"
I wonder how we get it asked?
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It's only money
And to think that royal commissions have been called to investigate failed government exercises of a much smaller scale?
I think 25 years and around $250,000,000 with still no outcome, workable process or system improvement should be the catalyst for such a commission?
Inquiries are futile. Although they are tools for unearthing a lot of hidden issues at the end of the day the Senators can only make recommendations, to which the government is perfectly entitled to respond with 'blow it out yer ass'! Which coincidentally is what they have done in response to the last few aviation inquiries, including Seaview, Lockhart etc etc.
Anyway, just think about how many flat screen TV's for the unemployed, extra packets of soft jubes for the pensioners, additional government advisors, and manicured footpaths around Vaucluse that money could have paid for???
I think 25 years and around $250,000,000 with still no outcome, workable process or system improvement should be the catalyst for such a commission?
Inquiries are futile. Although they are tools for unearthing a lot of hidden issues at the end of the day the Senators can only make recommendations, to which the government is perfectly entitled to respond with 'blow it out yer ass'! Which coincidentally is what they have done in response to the last few aviation inquiries, including Seaview, Lockhart etc etc.
Anyway, just think about how many flat screen TV's for the unemployed, extra packets of soft jubes for the pensioners, additional government advisors, and manicured footpaths around Vaucluse that money could have paid for???
[A]t the end of the day the Senators can only make recommendations ...
Senators can also introduce legislation (other than legislation imposing tax) and vote to amend legislation.
The Bill changing the Civil Aviation Act to increase the size of the CASA Board is a perfect opportunity for the Senators with strong opinions about aviation regulation to put their power and vote where their mouth is and amend the Bill and make real changes to aviation regulation. But you watch what they do.
That's why CASA and ATSB called their bluff.
Last edited by Creampuff; 19th Mar 2014 at 00:33. Reason: Changed Senate to House of Reps
From the Member for Grayndler, Mr Albanese:
You see: CASA's always done an excellent job.
… In conclusion, CASA has always done an excellent job over the years, including in its current configuration with its board, a product of the former Labor government's 2009 reforms. This bill does not change that structure; it simply increases the size of the board. In that context the bill is a continuation of the parliament's bipartisan approach to aviation safety—an approach that has served us well over the years—and I commend the bill to the House.