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Truss: Aviation Safety Regulation Review

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Truss: Aviation Safety Regulation Review

Old 16th Dec 2014, 03:02
  #1601 (permalink)  
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Reciprocal flourish vs rhetorical flourish?

Of bollocks;
Trust, of course, is a two-way street. Relations of trust need to be mutual and reciprocal to flourish. And if reliability forms the basis on which trust is built, it is reasonable and proper that verification should be readily forthcoming from both sides of the relationship.
More wordsmith sculpted folly from the master of wank words! That guy must seriously get a chubby from sprouting endless speeches and writing endless papers that are peppered with educated words and PHD methodology? I didn't hear the words 'bullshit', 'crock of shit' or 'complete shit' used?

There will never, and I repeat in a deep IOS monotone, never be trust between CASA and the aviation 'community' as long as thieves, bullies, liars, incompetents, Nupty's, halfwits, dimwits, dipshits, gronks, shonks and other peddlers of bollocks are allowed to apply their trade free of accountability without repercussion.
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 04:44
  #1602 (permalink)  
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Circular reasoning or Tautology.

Is the conclusion the premise or is the premise the conclusion?
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 08:21
  #1603 (permalink)  
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Make one's bones.

To make one's bones – Wiki – explains the whole thing, very nicely.

Well, now we have two of them; both with much to prove. Lets start with the 'easier' target.

Doc. Jonathon Aleck: and, his 'Gold Coast' speech to a fairly hostile audience of the "Australian Airports Association", which, by any measure are a fairly 'unsettled' outfit; given the Murky Machiavellian manipulation of 'system', was a masterpiece. In what?, well may you ask. There are those who will have it that Doc Aleck is, essentially, a frustrated man with both a moral compass and a first rate brain. Let us, just for the moment, accept that as a given.

There are tools at his disposal which could, in fairly short order, generate a lot of the much wanted trust. For example: he runs a thing called the ethics committee. I can without referring to any notes cite at least a half dozen 'cases' which demand his immediate attention; and, should he decide to act honourably (remember that word) he could, in a very short space of time restore most of the credibility which he and 'his' committee have resoundingly lost during the preceding five, long, weary years of the McComic era. Want trust, want to earn it: Jonathon you know the cases, as well as we do. You also know who perpetrated the aberrations, who told Porkies, who fiddled with evidence, who delayed, who lied under oath, who manipulated the ATSB and also, who benefited.

Start there, do a good job and perhaps you will be accepted into the fraternity of "aviators". Never; not even for one moment, forget, 'we' all know and have examined those cases in detail and have formed 'considered', provable opinions. Stand up FCS and be what many believe you are, an honourable, honest man (and a lover of the Bard).

Skidmore?, he has the easy task; look, listen, learn and FCO bloody L, do something: to get the dogs under management. The safety watchdogs are slinking back into the safety of kennels: muzzles bloodied after a sheep killing rampage. 'They' have done an incredible amount of damage to the reputation, credibility and integrity of CASA and the associated agencies – all easy to fix. Acknowledge and rectify – just duck the politics and trust will be gifted. It would, IMHO, be a grave error to allow the travelling public to become 'aware', shall we say, of just how pathetic, unreliable and morally bankrupt the 'safety watchdogs' have become, protected under the McComic regime.

Call the Ethics committee – use the Board – examine the cases we all know and ACT. For pities sake, ACT before the world does. Hells bells, you may even enjoy being "your own men", for just a while a least.

Do not ask for credit – refusal oft offends.

Handing over: your call – but remember 150, 000 readers this month have failed, dismally, to defend CASA, their Board, the cast or crew. Think on that.

Aye well: Selah children; and back to my knitting, I guess.
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Old 16th Dec 2014, 22:02
  #1604 (permalink)  
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E & C Committee

Its a side step shuffle mob for a dance move if the ICC comes up with a result not to CAsA's liking. A bastard child of McComic.

And you have to laugh when they have "ethics" in the moniker when those in the committee dont have any.
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Old 17th Dec 2014, 04:38
  #1605 (permalink)  
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Gotcha..Bang you're dead.!!

The standing man is a senior airworthiness inspector who has just caught a private individual ( now deceased) checking a split pin on the elevator of his pvt aircraft that does not have a current MR.

Since this heinous event is a crime of strict liability that may result in a hefty fine, jail time or death and serious injury the SAWI from the agency that acts as judge, jury and executioner has just carried out the execution to save time, and taxpayer dollars in having to deal with the CDPP, courts or the AAT.
The court may not produce the result that CAsA required... so much easier to do an 'in-house' job. Or in the field, so to speak
Another notch on the butt, another unsafe aviator removed from the skies...permanently. RIP GA.

Or have I got that completely wrong... the guy on the ground is the tosser from AusCheck that just told the pilot he could NOT fly or even taxi his a/c because he has no asic.!! Dont laugh, true.

Yep, that's it
Time to fight back.
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Old 17th Dec 2014, 06:18
  #1606 (permalink)  
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Only an extraordinarily clever person could have survived as a senior manager and executive in CASA for nearly two decades and yet have had no involvement in, no influence over and no responsibility for any of the kinds of systemic or specific problems of substantial concern to the AAI committee or ASRR panel. Thank heavens people of that calibre are on hand to help “develop meaningful and enduring solutions” to all the problems that, weirdly enough, look exactly like the enduring problems to which, in an amazing coincidence, meaningful solutions have been promised but never delivered by CASA over the last decade or so.

Only an extraordinarily clever person, with extraordinary chutzpah.

I remain in genuine, absolute awe, Jonathan Aleck.
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Old 17th Dec 2014, 06:45
  #1607 (permalink)  
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My sentiments entirely...

re JA the long term time server welded..cleverly but firmly to the trough.....

A recent example of his 'chutzpah' which shows how his word-smithing has been a great survival tool and diverted any attentions that may have come his way....smother it in BS and/ or verbal vomit.

False sworn statements to be used in a court of law to bring about the conviction of an individual that would result in a hefty fine or jail time....according to Herr Doktor are not false or lies..."they are only discrepancies in the wording used, or containing the odd discrepant word"...thus rendering them ( the false statements) not untrue and therefore not lies..!! Yes folks..white IS black
Astounding brilliance in perception. Bravo Jono!!
Wasnt any "discrepancy" that caused the CDPP to chuck out the case.!!

It's an enduring problem alright..

Time to stick another BIG pin in the voodoo doll.
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Old 17th Dec 2014, 10:31
  #1608 (permalink)  
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I think the picture is of the Screamer taking out a pesky IOS member who tendentiously blogged about him. Then again it could be a picture of an ICC member dealing with an industry complaint! Naughty UITA, one photo yet it has endless possibilities.
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Old 17th Dec 2014, 22:46
  #1609 (permalink)  
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M&M 2014 weport card - Slight dwift on ASA AQONs

Slight drift but another area currently under the Senate blowtorch which also involves a politically (M&M) selected AVM (active) and a new Hoodoo Doc (although not quite in the calibre of JA), which most definitely falls into the M&M remit...

Remember this...

Which AVM 'Stabbed in the Dark' eventually responded with this wet lettuce, weasel, worded correction to the Hansard record:
3.) Correspondence received 25 November 2014 from Ms Margaret Staib, Chief Executive Officer of Airservies Australia, clarifying evidence given on 20 October 2014.(PDF 116KB)
Then three days later we had this - An inquiry into the performance of Airservices Australia.

Well from that session there was a number of QONs (37 in total) generated and surprise...surprise the AQONs are already released, all 184 pages of them...:
1 Answers to questions taken on notice on 28 November 2014 in Canberra, ACT.
Most of the answers are obviously designed to put the most avid readers to sleep...

However there is some of particular interest for the average nerd...

1st example and on the subject of ethics was this AQON from Dr (Duck'n'weave) Ethics:

...Dr Weaver: I have chaired that committee since March this year.

Senator STERLE: So there are three of you on that who know about that.

Dr Weaver: There are also representatives from the rest of the organisation—so the chief auditor; the manager, security and resilience is often in attendance; and other representatives from people and culture.

Senator STERLE: You can provide names. That is fine. How many are there all up?

Dr Weaver: The key members of the committee are the executive—

Senator STERLE: Who would have known—Mr Weaver, very clear, very precise—when I asked the question of Ms Staib at Senate estimates two weeks ago, that there was credit card fraud?

Dr Weaver: The people that know of credit card fraud are the members of that committee and the representatives of that committee.

Senator STERLE: You have said all that. Tell me how many people—five, 10, half the organisation, 2,000, what?

Dr Weaver: To be clear, there will be other people that would know about individual cases of credit card fraud.

Senator STERLE: So a lot of people would know?

Dr Weaver: About individual cases, it would be quite a small number that would know about each individual case.

Senator STERLE: Mr Weaver, do you know how many people?

Dr Weaver: I do not know the exact number, no.

Senator STERLE: Can you find out for me, please?

Dr Weaver: Yes.


Instances of serious credit card misuse are reported to the Fraud and Ethics Committee which has five permanent members:

Executive General Manager, Safety, Environment and Assurance

Chief Finance Officer

Executive General Manager, People and Culture

Executive General Manager, Projects and Engineering

Chief Auditor.

The number of people who may know of an individual case will vary depending on the circumstances and may involve staff from security and resilience, human resources, employee relations, legal counsel, in-line managers or senior executive outside of the committee. Matters are always dealt with cognisant of the privacy of the individual and balanced against organisational responsibilities to effectively manage the issue.

The details of the specific case that was raised at the 20 October 2014 Estimates hearing involving a staff member that was dismissed were explained during the in-camera hearing.
Next example perked my interest in light of the recent Miniscule v Archerfield Airport Chamber of Commerce AAT hearings:
CHAIR: I think I will take this to public works from here. We have not had a bad day, have we? Tell me about the runway at Archerfield. Is it true that it does not comply—whatever one they are arguing about that has been shortened?

Mr Hood: I will have to take that on notice. I am not aware of any complaints in relation to any—

CHAIR: As you would know, and as Mr Murdoch is very conscious of, there is a contest of interests at airfields like Bankstown, where the developers—and they have ways and means of convincing people. It appears to me that there is a bit of pressure on in various airfields, including Archerfield and, of course, Bankstown. It appears to me that all of a sudden they have woken up to the fact that whichever runway it is is no longer compliant, even though they are using it. I am wondering, if something goes wrong, who is going to be liable for that.

Mr Hood: It is the first time it has been raised with me, but I am certainly happy to take it on notice.

It could cut across CASA as well. I am happy to take that.

In 2008, it was identified that a building infringed one of the restrictive surfaces (the PANSOPS surface) for the Standard Instrument Departure (SID) for one of the runways at Archerfield (28 Right).

At the time, Airservices initial action was to issue a Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) which moved the PANS-OPS surface to a position whereby the building was no longer penetrating it.

Subsequently, specific cloud and visibility requirements were put in place for use of the procedure to ensure that it could only be used in circumstances when the building could be sighted by pilots. The NOTAM was then rescinded, making the full length of the runway available again.

An ATSB report (AI-2008-038) published in April 2010 assessed the actions of Airservices and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) to be adequate to address the safety issues raised.
Airservices procedures are fully compliant.
Again another example - by ASA this time - of all care and no responsibility when it comes to Secondary Airports...

Ok back to the current topic on JA & ethics...

Creamy - "...Only an extraordinarily clever person, with extraordinary chutzpah.

I remain in genuine, absolute awe, Jonathan Aleck."

Choccy frog for Creamy I reckon...

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Old 19th Dec 2014, 21:06
  #1610 (permalink)  
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Three shells and a pea.

As it's Christmas, I reckon CP merits a Tim Tam. Not so sure that the Word Weasel work shop deserves any such consideration for the AQON; what – 180 odd pages, most of it more work-shopped drivel, to clearly outline where the wriggle room for spending 'airline' monies is located. A clever, determined, only slightly larcenous lad (or ladette) could drive a horse and cart through the clever construction the 'Slicks' have provided. When you skim past the obvious, stultifying, mind numbing, soporific, tedious stating of the bleeding obvious; you get to some answers – one liners – maybe two sentences. Which complete the 'loop'; now having gained time, the game is to wait for the obvious questions the estimates crew must pitch at you.

When the approved Word Weasel work-shop answer is not available, roll off the top, take it an notice and Bingo, you have just earned another three months of salary. It's like the shell game; invented by charlatans, perpetuated by the shills in the Souq, to take advantage of those naive or gullible enough to risk their dinars. It must drive the likes of Heffernan and Sterle nuts; I expect 'Elphy Bey' Truss barely notices the time or the money slipping away down the well trodden back alley into the coffers of those who profit most from 'the great game'.

The answer to your question Senator is under one of these three shells; you can pick only one though; so pick one, any one you like, but ante up first; there's a good chap.


Last edited by Kharon; 19th Dec 2014 at 21:18.
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 17:09
  #1611 (permalink)  
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Jabiru has been shafted, Truss review worthless,
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 21:05
  #1612 (permalink)  
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Tis the season now of folly;

Sunny – "[Truss] review worthless"
Don't know as I can agree Sunny. Before the whole cartload of change (AAI recommendations, Forsyth recommendations, TSBC recommendations, ATSB Pel-Air review) can be delivered at the current glacial pace, there has to be a hiatus. Christmas break, new DAS, new bored members; and, probably a new Minuscule (gods willing, weather permitting). It's been a tiring year, the Senate committees have moved a mountain even if it was perforce at a suitably dignified 'parliamentary pace'.

Before the proposed changes and policy kick in, any licks CASA wanted to get in must be taken now. If Jabiru can hold on and generate a sustainable rebuttal; then, perhaps in the new year there will be an opportunity for 'sensible' discussion leading to a solution. There is, at face value, 'a case' for both parties to argue which, 'in the heat of battle', precludes a balanced approach; it will be down to the 'judge' to make a 'safe' ruling.

CASA believes that 'top cover' will be enough to prevent any serious ordinance impacting on their bunker. It is an incorrect, flawed assumption. The top cover will melt away to protect it's own rice bowl, when the going gets tough. How tough?, well that remains to be seen, but what with airports becoming a hot topic, Pel Air trailing along behind, ASA in the gun, ATSB due for a roasting and a very cranky Senate committee driving the bus; I'd say once Heff and his crew have had enough Christmas pudding and a surfeit of Damson gin; things just may become a little warmer over at Sleepy Hollow. They are after all the most vulnerable target, located in an almost indefensible position, with the most to hide, from a determined, well supplied opposition.

Could all turn to worms, as it has in the past, but by the pricking of my thumbs and the smell on the breeze, I'd say it will be an 'interesting' next twelve month.

It may seem as though little has been achieved since last Christmas; but I believe the goal posts have been firmly relocated in the right place; up to the teams now to play up, run hard and do strong.

Toot toot......
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 22:13
  #1613 (permalink)  
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Cabinet reshuffle.

I wonder if we can expect anything positive for aviation in the reshuffle this afternoon. Like a Minister for transport for example. The Nats usually suffer this portfolio and Truss is seen by everyone to be doing a poor job. Perhaps a Lib may be given the job.

Truss should piss, or get off the pot!
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 02:39
  #1614 (permalink)  
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question for Mr Kharon and others.

a rat is smelled. what is at the core and what is the basis of the peculiar smell?
where does the statute of limitations feature in all of this?
could the obfuscation and behaviour be nothing more than a delaying tactic to let the matters age beyond a limitations of action statute?

serious question.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 20:57
  #1615 (permalink)  
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Troll the ancient Yule tide web site.

Don't know as I can tell you the answer W8. Certainly delay, diversion and dilution are a part of the external defence system for Sleepy Hollow; but that is not unusual, they've been at it for years. The more intriguing aspect is why the minuscule has allowed this to continue on his watch; there are some 60 serious, far-reaching, recommendations knocking on his door, demanding attention, that's before the tacit and published recommendations of the Canadian safety authority are considered. The list of what I believe are serious' matters is extensive and growing by the day, so the reason for delay at government level could be explained by the sheer volume of and implications drawn from those reports. What Truss should, quite rightly, be able to do is rely on is the integrity and competence of 'his' aviation safety authorities. It must be a shock, considering the amount of money it costs and the wider implication of discovering that the Emperor and minions have no clothes.

The problems are of ministerial proportion and serious. The airports debacle is about to land firmly and squarely on his desk. Consider the ministers position; he most certainly cannot admit to the world that his much vaunted aviation safety system has degenerated into an expensive sham; that the great Australian airports rip-off is about to become public; that his ATSB told fairy stories or that the monster lurking under the bed is CASA. He cannot allow that to be discovered; therefore he must act as the repercussion to his government would be disastrous, particularly as the MH 370 incident is developing a life of it's own, outside of 'his' control. Another accident or incident will place the government at risk, should they not act.

So time, for Truss is of the essence, for he's damned if do and equally damned if he don't. Tough spot his trusty watchdogs have placed him in. Then, being isolated from the IOS, he must rely on those paid to give him advice, the Sir Humphries of this world, to turn down the noise and ensure that his arse in not in the next sling leaving Dodge.

When you add it all up ASA, ATSB, CASA all suffer the same blight, it needs to be eradicated, but it must be done so the public never see it done. That takes time, I doubt the 'statute of limitations' will ever come into play; as it will be difficult for the AFP to define a brief, let alone get it to the stage where the DPP can frame a case; too many locked doors to batter down and little or no political interest in doing it will see off those unpleasant 'legal' aspects. On the bright side though, all roads lead to Rome and the seat of 'real' power is readily identified. Once the Gordian knots on the apron strings of power are undone, things will rapidly improve. One small step, will Truss take it ? who'd know, certainly not I.

Well, FWIW, that's my two bob spent.

Last edited by Kharon; 21st Dec 2014 at 21:14.
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Old 28th Dec 2014, 20:37
  #1616 (permalink)  
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Prepare for a masterclass in using the infinite flexibility of language to choose any approach you like from time-to-time to justify anything you like from time-to-time time:
Whether specifying, interpreting, applying or, where necessary, enforcing regulatory requirements, CASA is bound to regard safety as the most important consideration. This is what our Act has provided since CASA’s predecessor, the Civil Aviation Authority, was established in 1988, and there is no indication of which I am aware that this will be changing any time soon. At the same time, however, it is crucial to recognise that, whilst safety must be our most important consideration, it is not, and may not properly be, our only consideration. In exercising our powers and performing our functions, CASA is neither discouraged nor prevented from taking a wide range of other relevant and important considerations into account. In fact, we are required by law to do so.

This critical recognition, which I fear is sometimes lost in the otherwise appropriately privileging ‘rhetoric of safety’, resonates well with the Government’s policies on regulation, and it is entirely consistent with the first Key Performance Indicator in the Government’s recently released Regulator Performance Framework, which directs that regulators must ‘not unnecessarily impede the efficient operation of regulated entities’ -a formulation that departs in a deliberate way from the original draft KPI, which called for regulators to ‘facilitate the efficient operation of regulated entities’.

I’ll return to this subtle but important point in a moment. ...

A recent and important example of the kind of regulatory relief CASA is providing for operators and airports alike involves regulations relating to narrow-runway operations. No longer will aerodromes be required to widen runways to allow for the operation of aircraft which have been assessed as capable of operating safely on narrower runways. The expectation is that such aircraft will be issued with an approved narrow-runway flight manual supplement, giving operators the freedom and the responsibility to address what is essentially an operational issue, without the need for aerodrome operators to seek an exemption from previously applicable requirements.

The new rules commended less than two weeks ago, on 13 November 2014.
But wait a moment ...

Who made the runway width rules, from which CASA is providing relief, in the first place?

And when those rules were made in the first place, weren't the obligations imposed on CASA precisely the same as they are now: "Whilst safety must be [CASA's] most important consideration, it is not, and may not properly be, [CASA's] only consideration. In exercising [CASA's] powers and performing our functions, CASA is neither discouraged nor prevented from taking a wide range of other relevant and important considerations into account. In fact, [CASA is] required by law to do so.

What we have is precisely the same decision making obligation applied to precisely the same objective risks and benefits, but with different decisions made at different points in time.

Having taken safety into consideration as the most consideration, and having taken the wide range of other relevant and important considerations into account, as CASA is "required by law" to do, CASA made the decision to make the runway width rules.

Having taken safety into consideration as the most consideration, and having taken the wide range of other relevant and important considerations into account, as CASA is "required by law" to do, CASA made the decision to "provide relief" from the runway width rules.

All that really changed was that enforcement of the runway width rules became politically 'inconvenient'. At that point it became politically expedient for CASA to 'remember' the obligation to take account of "a wide range of relevant and important considerations" other than safety, and to quietly 're-assess' the relative importance and relative weightings to be attributed to those considerations.

As I've said many times, aviation regulation in Australia is mostly politics dressed up in the language of safety. And to get away with it, you need extraordinarily clever people. People who are willing and able expertly to advocate for and justify a decision one day, then expertly advocate for and justify a decision to the opposite effect the next.

I remain in genuine awe, Jonathan Aleck.

Last edited by Creampuff; 28th Dec 2014 at 21:45.
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Old 28th Dec 2014, 23:15
  #1617 (permalink)  
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To put it another way Creampuff, CASA is absolutely and totally dishonest and corrupt. The very essence of bureaucracy in the Weberian sense, is for strict rules and authorities to be applied without fear or favour and transparently and equally.

By Dr. Alecks own admission, CASA does not adhere to those rules but claims the right to make "appropriate considerations" this is nonsense and any judge or tribunal that accepts it is corrupt as well.
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Old 29th Dec 2014, 03:18
  #1618 (permalink)  
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Start with the removal of Farquartson and Aleck.
The reason for this - just look at the Jabiru and RAus mess for a start, the John Quadrio affair, PelAir. The lies to the Senate committee.
To date - all of this has been an acceptable means of compliance to CASA. The fact that some of these individuals have held key organisational roles for many decades proves that CASA's master - the Australian government, is more than happy with CASA's modus operandi. And for CASA it is a dream come true, being allowed to shift the goal posts if, as and when it chooses. The CASA beast is never accountable and is never liable. It is judge, jury and executioner. What a fantastic framework for those employeed within its ranks! Operate with impunity and full immunity. Sweet!!

"Massaged skies for all"
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Old 31st Dec 2014, 22:52
  #1619 (permalink)  
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1st January 2015

OK Mr Skidmore. Today you formally/officially take up the position of Director of Aviation Safety.

Now that your feet are under the table I look forward to your actions, particularly those as the result of the ASRR.

Get your "skates" on and get doing.

Happy New Year (and hopefully a decent CASA culture)

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Old 31st Dec 2014, 23:24
  #1620 (permalink)  
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And, the last man standing, is?

Another new year, but for the minuscule, the same old 'challenges' remain, steadfast as ever. A now forearmed Iron Ring with advance knowledge of what the 'industry' would like to have had for Christmas can, at their leisure forward plan to make sure that nothing changes.

The stalwart 'political' suicide argument will be polished to a mirror shine.

The trusty 'personal liability' option v an 'alternative' solution on the Hobson's choice machinery will be fuelled and oiled, to generate the smoke of self protection.

The infallible 'fear' factor will be sharpened to surgical precision and placed discretely on the bored room table; to provide 'pause for thought' to reinforce the notion that any, even a mild disagreement with the will of the Iron Ring will paid for, in blood.

Then, the GWM will be fed, watered and unleashed to keep the populace in it's rightful place.

Indeed, the IR may contentedly sit back knowing that not even the lightest zephyr or hint of breeze will disturb the calm surface of their self satisfaction. Good work if you can get it; dead man's boots job of course and the queue is long.

So what tools do we have available to unlock the doorway to the serene mill pond of Zen like contemplation. Well:-there's the holy hand grenade of the Rev. Forsyth and his happy band of miscreants. The notion of a revisit and audit, to measure tangible change, evaluate the fiction and assess the reality of the "changes" fairy story would be a good place to start. Say in a six month, bring them back to have a good sniff about. Of course, there is the bored to step around, then the Iron Ring, then the GWM to plough through, but if industry supports the effort, perhaps some small concession would be granted; if only for a little peace and quiet.

Unravelling the Pel-Air debacle at Senate committee level would open some windows a crack and let some fresh air and light in. Taken to it's natural conclusion it may even heal some of the dreadful wounds inflicted by Albo's hand picked, one man hit squad and his catamites. But that needs the independent, bi-partisan efforts of a dedicated, informed committee, fully supported by the Minuscule. Political will, executive horsepower, and some old fashioned courage will be needed to stare down the iron Ring.

Well, here we are in the ring waiting for the bell to start Round 1. It's never too early to start loosing, so don't let the opposition get the first hit; standing still and waiting for the other fellah to thump you, has never been a good way to start a street fight.

Game on, shake off the hangover and lets try to keep the pressure on, before Abbott drops the ball and Albo emerges, once again and re-hires the McComic. Up to you ALL, at the end of the day, all 275,000 of you who read PPRuNe this past month. You know you want to......


Last edited by Kharon; 31st Dec 2014 at 23:35.
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