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Truss: Aviation Safety Regulation Review

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Truss: Aviation Safety Regulation Review

Old 13th Jun 2014, 09:38
  #801 (permalink)  
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The Maitland submission is worth reading too. Particularly the section on conduct of casa offices. I'm sure a lot of the submissions are worth reading. Perhaps there are patterns of behaviour that will become very clear?
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Old 13th Jun 2014, 12:33
  #802 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Two observations to make;

1.The fact that basically 25% of respondents have chosen to remain anonymous gives testimony to the fact that Fort Fumble can't be trusted to accept the umpires decision graciously. Revenge is not a modus operandi that the Regulator is unfamiliar with. And;
2. The Urquhart submission. Shanes submission simply must be read above all, digested and meditated upon. This is the real nuts and bolts of why we absolutely need the system fixed, urgently. Real people are getting killed, real families and friends of those killed are being left to weather the pain and grief these tragedies leave behind for surviving loved ones, and in Shanes case also have to endure the humiliation, deceit and unconscionable actions of putrid bureaucratic scum as they wash blood from their hands. If for no better reason than to provide justice and to give Shane and other countless victims a decent nights rest then change must be actioned immediately. I still believe a royal commission is warranted, accountable persons need to be brought to justice and closure of sorts given to those still suffering.

I remind people that this review and its findings and recommendations are simply that - findings and recommendations. We need to ensure, enforce and demand that the WLR recommendations are accepted by Minister Truss in their entirety, as a starting platform. We will not accept any softcock approach, spin delay tactics or denials. We, the IOS have a duty to continue our quest, as this mission is far from over. We need to continue the fight to turn around the decay within our aviation fabric. Let's keep the bastards honest.
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Old 13th Jun 2014, 23:10
  #803 (permalink)  
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Real Meaning Of Civil Aviation Safety Authority

It just occurred to me how the words "Civil Aviation Safety Authority" are interpreted in Government circles and I believe all actions and events in the last Twenty years are consistent with my interpretation.

The Civil Aviation Safety Authority has the job of keeping Government and the public service safe from any occurrence or event in the Australian Aviation industry, period.

It is not there to "protect the public" let alone "serve the industry" or "keep pilots and passengers safe". It is there to protect firstly the Government of the day, then the public service then its own operatives, then the general public, industry operators and finally the poor bloody pilot. That is the hierarchy,period.

I say again, CASA exists to keep the Government safe from Civil Aviation.

This interpretation is consistent with the treatment of Qadrio and James, the embuggerisation of various operators, the lack of interest in a strong ATSB, the confusing, barmy regulations, capricious enforcement, the lack of any industry focus, the lot. All of it is designed to break the chain of accountability leading towards the Minister and the upper reaches of the public service in as many places as possible. This is the reason CASA never prosecutes one of its own even when confronted with written evidence of perjury.

You can bet that my interpretation has been spelled out in detail to the Minister including what happens to "courageous" Ministers who actually attempt to change something - the accountability insulator function of CASA will cease to be effective and the Minister ends up wearing blame.

The only effective way of forcing change in such an environment is to make the Minister more afraid of the public, his constituents, his back bench colleagues and members of the Cabinet then he is of Mr. Mrdak, his Department and CASA.

To that end it may be fruitful to write to your local member and other Cabinet members, for example I'm sure the Treasurer and Minister of Finance would be interested in the enormous cost of regulatory reform, Foreign Affairs would be interested in our international reputation if we are downgraded by the FAA, etc.

Just food for thought.
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Old 14th Jun 2014, 00:05
  #804 (permalink)  
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I would encourage every one to at least draw attention to the submissions of Gary Gaunt and Trevor Jenson to the attention of their local member of federal parliament.
I thought I might have been pleasantly surprised but all I could see in one of those submissions was a resume, a job application and a lot of quoting of other reports into well known accidents such as Piper Alpha and Longford.

I remind people that this review and its findings and recommendations are simply that - findings and recommendations.
Well spotted 004, the same goes for all the other Senate Inquiries. It is of no use to state"Well the Government has to do something now!" because they don't have to do anything, it all comes down to what they are willing to do. If the public reaction to the Virgin ATR grounding is any indication(insert sound bite of crickets), then the small demographic of aviation minded public opinion won't prod them to do much at all!
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Old 14th Jun 2014, 02:11
  #805 (permalink)  
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Itch nearly scratched.

I was – until I found this submission – 231 – intrigued by the all out assault from the Gliding Federation of Australia (GFA). They have always been a very civilised organisation, quietly, without too much fuss managing their affairs and producing some of the finest pilots it has ever been my pleasure to work with. So what rattled the cage of this quiet, but influential outfit. Seems CASA have gone in mob handed in a dedicated mission to find 'the dirt' and managed to offend:

Good effort to get so many submissions in, coordinated effort by good management and active members. Well done GFA.

CASA have acted unconscionably in raiding the GFA Offices, unannounced. This is a total betrayal of trust on their behalf.

Any adverse findings they have found are likely to be clerical errors at best and oversights at worst.

Many years of mutual co-operation, many years of mutual collaboration, many years of mutual trust, gone.
Kelpie on this one – MTF.....
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Old 14th Jun 2014, 08:35
  #806 (permalink)  
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"CASA have acted unconscionably in raiding the GFA Offices, unannounced. This is a total betrayal of trust on their behalf."

Yup, aint that the truth!! but do anyone in "Guvmint" give a sh..t.
Remember years ago the polis were getting frustrated because they had to obtain a search warrant to raid private property. Problem was the judges who had to sign them kept asking embarrassing questions.
Polis, as enforcers will, looked for ways around the "LAW" and found it in the unfetted power of Customs who could kick anyone's front door in any time it took their fancy. So Polis raids became customs operations inter-department cooperation and all that, until they raided a house, husband and wife naked on the bedroom floor with shotguns at their heads, screaming kids probably scared for life,...errr.... wrong house...errr...sorry. Husband happened to be a TV reporter...even then it was all swept under the carpet.
Just realize, if you hold any sort of aviation approval, license, delegation,
CAsA have the power to kick your front door in, drag you and your significant other onto the floor at gun point, ransack your house and all they need is?? "Reasonable suspicion"...who decides that??? well of course they do.
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Old 14th Jun 2014, 21:15
  #807 (permalink)  
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Of icebergs and the tips thereof.

The 'thing' which intrigues me most is the persistence of this discredited outfit. Naively, when I kicked off the Bankstown Chronicles, I thought it was an isolated problem, local like. Maybe the Truss review has emboldened those who were previously 'afeared to speak', but hells bells, there are some scary stories coming out from under the rocks.

Many of these involve 'operational embuggerance'; now administrative nonsense can be dealt with – through the COM, but when 'strange but true' tales start creeping into SOP, it's time, to put a foot down, with a firm hand. Things equally as wrong as power off and both hands on the wheel at 50' during landing (true dat) are being inflicted on Chief pilots and forced into SOP. Cooperate or no sign off; and no, you cannot have a written directive. I will not bore you with the tales; I have discarded many as being 'dubious', but the remainder are from experienced pro pilots who are forced to endure some of the most infantile, pedantic, operationally risible tenets ever published. It has to be stopped, here and now would be great...

Unless someone gets a rope on some of these buggers there's going to be a prang. It will not be attributable to the half wit who enforced the change, but to whoever is the number one moving target – in a line of three.

The minister must be taken gently, by the Senators if need be to a place where this can be stopped. The top dressing of change is a great start, it really is; but the termites have been at work for a long while now and I'm not certain the 'operational' foundations can support the weight much longer. I know, it's easy to say the chief pilot should tell them to bugger off and take their silly notions with 'em; but then, the reality of financial pressures, operational expediency, not wanting to be in a stand up brawl with the local FOI and a peaceful life are powerful incentives.

Truss must act, swiftly, purposefully with intent, it really is getting messy out here.

Toot toot.
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Old 14th Jun 2014, 21:16
  #808 (permalink)  
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I just read the CASA submission. I can't copy and paste relevant sections but it made me want to throw up, especially 6.2 about enforcement.
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Old 14th Jun 2014, 21:27
  #809 (permalink)  
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Mornin' Sunny.

Well done Sunny, (Choc frog) I only got to part 1 and reached for the bucket.

6.2 On those rare occasions when resort to the use of our enforcement powers becomes necessary, CASA is proud of its demonstrable ability and willingness to act with resolve and without fear or favour. At the same time, however, we are keenly aware of the fact that the exercise of our enforcement powers can have a profound effect on the reputation, affairs and livelihood of the persons affected by our actions, and of our corollary obligation to ensure that, when we do take action, we do so in an even-handed, proportionate and in all other respects entirely appropriate-and lawful-manner.
Demonstrable – "clearly apparent or capable of being logically proved."

Demonstrated – "clearly show the existence or truth of (something) by giving proof or evidence."

The devil as always – in the disingenuous details.....

Last edited by Kharon; 14th Jun 2014 at 22:09. Reason: Second coffee notions
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 01:13
  #810 (permalink)  
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The 6.2 vomit....

Bring me another bucket ffs. !!

That statement is a classic example of the difference between the CAsA dreamland/fairyland and the GA reality ...and CAsA persons behaviour out in the real world.

Who wrote this shite????

Its absolutely untrue , its bullsh*t with a capitol B....BULLSH*T.
Its a total heap of ar$e covering motherhood crap that I bet the author doesnt even believe.

If this is the intellectual capacity of people calling the shots in the Funny Farm, and they are not part of the Truss cull...if there is one.. then we are in for a very torrid/horrid time.
Ops normal?
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 05:18
  #811 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Posts: 559
Aroa, that drivel that CAsA submitted has the DNA of a Witchdoctor and the bloated Board chairman smeared all over it! If even 1% of that pony pooh was true I would cancel my retirement plans and opt for another 10 years in such a well supported and safe industry which is oversighted by some of the most wonderful, beautiful and nice Regulators to grace mother Earth since the days of the Wright brothers
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 07:42
  #812 (permalink)  
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Wow ..the NEW definition...!!

Ploughing thru the AsRR subs...some good reading in there.

And then you come to the CAsA sub..Dont they have a lot to say/for about themselves.? Jeez we're lucky

Apart from 6.2 as an upchucker (bucket required), and there are others,,,I just loved the new definition for "polishing the turd"....

....A HELPFUL THEMATIC GLOSS....aka the shiny hand polished BS one expects from CAsA.
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 08:52
  #813 (permalink)  
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Yep like prosecute a 70 plus year old because you have a set against him not once not twice but 4 times.

Then you don't do anything about a person signing out defects and ADs when the person not a lame a ame not a nothing what did casa do. Nothing.

Or how about this one on damp.

Convicted ( pleaded guilty ) for having growing drugs (14 plants plus extra stuff ) no conviction recorded by the court and what have casa done.

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Old 15th Jun 2014, 10:18
  #814 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2012
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CASA and it's effects.

My dealings with CASA have led to major depression and massive loss. My life is now a misery controlled by medication and hope. In the UK they have a law covering Corporate Manslaughter. Perhaps Aust needs Corporate Bullying.
I'm history, but this should not happen to anyone else. The skull and the GWM need to be held to account, held responsible, fired and charged for a multitude of offences under the Act and criminal law.
Never should this happen to anyone again.
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 10:26
  #815 (permalink)  
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Posts: 1,002

I feel for you. I have so much on them that if they come at me I'll smash them again.
I might add with the above post they tried 4 times to prosecute him and 4 times they lost. How ever it cost him a fortune to defend him self.
They scrum people that can't make it into the real world. One awi I know grounds aircraft if the brake rotors are under size. Don't matter if they over size at the check and go under in service they still legal till the next service.

If you are in Nsw you may have a case against them. I don't know about over states.
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 21:17
  #816 (permalink)  
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Trouble at Mill.

Yes Minister, we do appear to have a problem of epic proportions. No sir, we are not exaggerating, in fact your review, even though the terms of reference were very narrow and limiting, has provided a picture of a desperate industry, rapidly approaching crisis. Yes, there are indeed some major items which will be addressed and for that we thank you. But while industry patiently waits for those changes to take place, would you consider an embargo on any and all CASA actions against companies and individuals.

The hiatus need not be lengthy; just long enough for sane, independent, impartial assessment to be made on the merits of any CASA case. The CVD matter provides the quintessential example; flawed logic, flawed evidence, flawed motivation supported by public money against a few individuals. There is no logical reason to expend those monies, simply to cause untold stress and to wreak havoc on the lives of ordinary, hard working Australian families. It is not an isolated case; there are many more hidden beneath the CASA mirror.

It is certain that Forsyth and his panel have been privy to at least some of the industry woes, even though they were outside his ToR; Senators of the Pel Air inquiry have equally pertinent information, certainly enough to justify a brief period of peace, during the transition. Even if only to ensure those proposed actions are legally 'safe and sound'.

The proposed changes whilst important will not remove existing radical problems: safety is at risk; we were lucky, very lucky with the Virgin ATR. Good luck cannot be relied on to cure self inflicted damage, such as:-

- Incorrect, unnecessary, potentially lethal changes to the way aircraft are operated through the pet notions or inexperienced assumptions of inept flight operations staff being inflicted through SOP and 'modified' manufacturers check procedures. (Truly alarming).

- The engineers who maintain aircraft cannot be expected to continue to do their important work while continuously glancing over their shoulder to make sure 'the man' is not watching, taking notes and looking for half an excuse to prosecute.

- The many individuals who's lives and careers have been decimated without a shred of evidence coming before a court, John Quadrio is one of many as is Dominic James.

Just put the brakes on Minister, just for while – until sanity and balance return and everyone has had a chance to achieve a state of mind where change can be effectively made though good will, rather than through a jack boot. This is an angry industry, patiently waiting for real change. Just as it would be an error to tease a large hungry dog with a small bone, so it would be to further torment industry.

Put the brakes on Warren, call off the dogs and lets see if we cannot get this industry going forward again, in concert with rather than diametrically opposed to the regulator which exists to serve it, not rule it.


Last edited by Kharon; 15th Jun 2014 at 21:32.
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 22:45
  #817 (permalink)  
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Personally, I would throw open every position in CASA and make existing employees reapply for their jobs.

If Minister Truss can't get this right, then there is no hope for him or his government.
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Old 15th Jun 2014, 23:34
  #818 (permalink)  
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Personally, I would throw open every position in CASA and make existing employees reapply for their jobs.

If Minister Truss can't get this right, then there is no hope for him or his government.
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Old 16th Jun 2014, 05:46
  #819 (permalink)  
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Take a bow industry; take two, if it pleases.

Well done industry – some very adroit, succinct, educated comment made. The amount of work done and the care taken is impressive. I reckon the Rev. Forsyth was handed about a million bucks worth of first class industry expert advice, gratis. Submissions to the WLR speak highly of the dedication and professionalism entrenched within.

The patterns which emerge from the submissions are clear; it's interesting though that only the 'professional pilot' groups had anything significant to say about the ATSB, others made mention but the core issues were taken head on and best addressed by the following: - AFAP - : - AIPA- : -VIPA.

The ATSB submission, like Oliver simply asks for more porridge and can be as easily dismissed as the pathetic (bloody disgraceful) – press release – doled out as an 'interim' report on the ATR incident. Annexe 19 - indeed.

It seems that most agree that the ATSB is, essentially a viable outfit with some good crew, a modicum of residual respect; and, is salvageable, despite the 'aberrations' of the past. But I can't see how anything else but independence in the manner of the NTSB can be effective. The hated Miller review and the bastardised MoU rightfully get some diplomatic wet lettuce, but the message comes through clear enough, for gummint work anyway. General consensus seems to be that the Forsyth report recommendations 3, 4, 5 and 11 are generally acceptable, workable and heading in the right direction.

3. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigates as many fatal accidents in the sport and recreational aviation sector as its resources will allow.

4. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority utilise the provision in their bilateral Memorandum of Understanding to accredit CASA observers to ATSB investigations.

5. The Australian Government appoints an additional Australian Transport Safety Bureau Commissioner with aviation operational and safety management experience.

11. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority amend the wording of their existing Memorandum of Understanding to make it more definitive about interaction, coordination, and cooperation.
The ones which may provoke discussion and dissent are 19 and 20.

19. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau transfers information from Mandatory Occurrence Reports to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, without redaction or de-identification.
I'd like to see this happen, eventually; but for the while I feel that industry nerves endings are frayed and patience stretched a little too thin. Perhaps when faith can be placed in the hands of a truly reformed, mature regulator; then. But right now it requires a blind leap of faith. We shall see.

20. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau transfers its safety education function to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority.
Now I can't make up my mind on this one; instinctively, I'm a'gin it. CASA have made total bloody fools of themselves in the ATO personal development program and a dogs breakfast of just about every 'educational' program they have so far attempted. But, has ATSB the resources, skills and core 'mission' to get the job done right. The old 'crash comic' was a ripper, I know I learned heaps from it – back in the day. Perhaps this could be an alternative – ATSB investigation, translated to objective 'training' modules, cheap, cheerful and rewarding. Dunno – but it makes my old wooden head ache.....

Good job you guys and girls {inserts round of applause, big smile and Choccy frogs all round}.

Anyway – enough of reading submissions for me, for the while at least. Maybe some telly a couple of cold ones after a romp with the hounds. Ayup, a night off is declared, (midnight oil placed firmly in the cupboard).

Toot toot.

Last edited by Kharon; 16th Jun 2014 at 06:03. Reason: 2 4 1 up there Sunny
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Old 16th Jun 2014, 09:45
  #820 (permalink)  
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Plain English anyone

If any one wonders why CASA cannot produce a simple and plain set of safety standards, you only have to look at the CASA submission to the safety review to find the answer. It is amazing that this convoluted piece of nonsense was allowed to see the light of day without someone taking a red pen to the draft. It is clearly written by a lawyer, with its dense, turgid and impenetrable style. No prize for guessing who that lawyer may (004wercras got it right I think).Why use one word when you can use 10? Why use plain words when you can use archaic legal jargon that gives your submission “gravitas” (not).

Take a look at the sentence structure. Full of parenthetical phrases that qualify every word written. By the time you get to the end of a sentence, you forget what it was about. I particularly like the 91 word sentence in paragraph 3.4 which says (I’m not quite sure what it says but it sounds impressive):

“But whilst other considerations will properly be subordinated to any safety-related considerations with which the former are irreconcilably inconsistent, where two (or more) alternative courses of action are open to CASA, each equally conducive to optimal safety outcomes, but one less burdensome or economically problematic than another for a person whose rights, interests or legitimate expectations will be affected by CASA’s actions, CASA is effectively obliged to entertain and, in the absence of any other legitimate and legally sustainable reasons for not doing so, to adopt the less burdensome option”. To be sure!

As can be seen for the quote above, sentences in the submission run on for 100s of words. Whole paragraphs consist of a single sentence. Unbelievable. In para 4.2 a sentence is 109 words long. In paragraph 4.8 a sentence is 97 words long. In paragraphs 5.3 and 6.13 the paragraphs are just one long sentence, each with more than 170 words. The submission is riddled with such examples. The average sentence in the submission is probably 40 or 50 words long. How can this be? Doesn’t anyone in CASA have ANY idea about writing in simple English. Do they just allow the lawyers to write what they want without any check for sense, grammar or comprehensibility. Given the fact one of the lawyers in CASA was Australia’s representative in Montreal many years ago, it is perhaps not surprising that the submission is written as if it were a preamble to a Convention. See paragraph 6.13 where the CASA is “assiduously assuring” transparency and “developing, implementing and continually refining ‘pre-decisional’ review processes”. Check the wonderful linguistic symmetry in paragraph 91 where the Review Terms of reference are said to “contemplate a multitude of multifaceted, timely and, in certain cases, contested and understandably controversial issues”. But CASA acknowledges that “the preparation of adequately developed responsive comments that are, at once, concise and cogent has been a daunting task”. And CASA clearly has failed miserably in this task.

And obviously no one bothered to correct the submission for errors - no doubt they were too busy making important policy decisions. See for example para 2.4 “All these educative are to be performed...”. What does this mean? Seems they omitted the word “functions” after educative - but who knows? And look at para 5.3 (that wonderfully succinct sentence that consists of 173 words - “the volume of material that may bare on a round consideration of these issues”. Surely they meant “that may bear”? But perhaps “bare” is correct after all, given that it means “naked” or “nude” - just as this submission is naked or nude of any meaningful content. And what is a “round consideration”? Is it different from an ordinary consideration or a square consideration (at least square rhymes with bare).

So do not wonder why CASA can’t prepare standards in plain simple English. Just read this submission and you will have your answer why they can't.
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