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Truss: Aviation Safety Regulation Review

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Truss: Aviation Safety Regulation Review

Old 25th Nov 2013, 06:31
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Creamy, you are mostly right, the politicians can be snowed almost all of the time by public servants, an d this strategy has served DOT, CASA and ATSB well over the decades.

However there is one group that those gentlemen rightly fear as I have said: the good,folk at PM&C. They are public servants too, so the bullshit spinning doesn't work on them, they are whip smart and know exactly how to go for the jugular of fat and happy public servants who think they have it made.

If these folk get sicced on DOT, CASA and ATSB, then watch the fun, they don't stand a chance. It would be a foolish bureaucrat who calculated that PM&C are too busy to notice them.

The way they would do it is probably a masterful series of amendments to the appropriate legislation that would cut the feet out from under the targets and no one would be the wiser except for you lot.
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Old 25th Nov 2013, 07:51
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Sunfish

How right you are.Cannibalism is a favourite pastime in some circles in Canberra.

PM&C are the piranhas of the bureaucracy.

Their target often disappears without leaving even a fingerprint let alone a trace of genetic material.
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Old 25th Nov 2013, 08:01
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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This thread is unintelligible to most mortals who do not follow every intricacy of the political intrigue of CASA and politics. As an instance who is “Wazza”? I honestly haven’t a clue.
I don’t want an on line answer to my question. A PM would be welcome.
I live in an electorate with a new Liberal member of parliament.
I am sure, that if accurate, succinct complaints could be placed before our parliamentarians, the pressure could be ramped up on the enquiry.
To that end, may I suggest a “stickied” forum of real complaints in simple language that the poster would be prepared to put his/her signature to, not on line of course, but if requested by a parliamentarian’s office. The contact can still be via a personal email to the anonymous PPRuNe address.
Each Ppruner can then put up or shut up via their local Federal MP and senator.
As the the thread grows pressure can be sought from the press, industry organisations and local IT media.
I am happy to bombard my member with every item I can, but I know if I just write a letter or email it will be insignificant in his other electoral issues.
If we want to progress the issue, it has to be “grass roots”, consistent, accurate and passionate, with widespread input – ie as many electorates and senators that we can reach involved.
If they don’t come on board write a direct letter asking why.
It is no use reading, the issue requires DOING!
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Old 25th Nov 2013, 08:23
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Sunfish

Whatever else Federal politicians are, stupid they ain’t.

They aren’t being snowed by anybody.

They’ve snowed you and lots of others into believing that they’d intervene, if only they could understand the issues. Of course, the issues are so complex that lives would be at risk if they didn’t leave the experts in CASA to manage them, wouldn’t they?

Fawcett obviously has no idea. Heffernan; none. Nash; nada. Entsch; frozen with fear. Truss; powerless.

The mystique of aviation and all that.

If only someone in government understood the issues and had power to change things.

Alas, change can only be achieved after a ‘review’.

I say again: You’re being played for fools and, frankly, it's a very easy game to play.

Watch what happens with the promise to properly index DFRDB pensions. Another bunch of voters with the attention span of goldfish.
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Old 25th Nov 2013, 09:55
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Creampuff, I like your take on these matters. Barrier no longer has an AOC so would be a moot argument, they would not be just given one on the say so of a Minister, unless I totally misunderstand the system.

Similar to you, I have seen the passing of many of these inquiries with no real changes.
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Old 25th Nov 2013, 16:25
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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I'm thinking about submitting the recent senate report. Complete with 26 recommendations and sen X's additional comments.

Change the name, abolish or reestablish the board etc.

It will be interesting to watch although it could be another Groundhog Day. I hope not. Only time will tell.

Although I urge people to submit. The weight of all those submissions may just work.
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Old 25th Nov 2013, 22:36
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Creampuff:

They’ve snowed you and lots of others into believing that they’d intervene, if only they could understand the issues. Of course, the issues are so complex that lives would be at risk if they didn’t leave the experts in CASA to manage them, wouldn’t they?

Fawcett obviously has no idea. Heffernan; none. Nash; nada. Entsch; frozen with fear. Truss; powerless.

The mystique of aviation and all that
Creamy, this is where we differ. Many other public service institutions have decided to rely on the "technical complexity" and "risk" defences and they are now extinct. PM&C are quite capable of finding their own experts, if they in fact needed them.

In fact there are Two arguments that trump the "expert" defence every time and PM&C are the absolute masters of them: simple economics and administrative efficiency.

If, as I hope they will, somebody casts their eye over the cost and outputs of the regulatory reform program bells will ring. If they then look at the sheer volume of regulation compared to lot her countries, more bells will ring. If they then look at the economic costs of regulation on the Australian GA industry compared to other countries, the bells will reach a crescendo.

Then when they look at administrative efficiency, the first thing that will hit them is the shear lunacy of multiple inconsistent interpretations of the regulations and their complexity compared to the rest of the world, for example an FOI, when asked why there isn't a simple checklist of what is required of a private pilot flying a C172 to successfully complete any ramp check anywhere in the country told my friend that it was "Too complicated"!!!!! That should make another cathedral full of bells start ringing!

Then when they look at work flow, "projects", lines of authority, approvals, not to mention enforcement actions, there is a whole other mess to be found. Finally they will look at the likes of Barrier, Polar, Quadrio, hempel and others and the penny will drop.

CASA needs to be broken up. the ATSB needs its full independence restored and confidentiality restored by the creation of a strict liability offence for any ATSB person to breath a word to anyone. There needs to be an economic fostering clause in the legislation and enforcement must be totally separated from rule making.

It can be done. PM&C people could do it over a weekend if they aren't too busy.
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Old 25th Nov 2013, 23:57
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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You miss my point (which may have been poorly expressed).

The government understands, completely, all of the issues and options.

The government is not snowed by the mystique of aviation.

The government isn’t doing anything, because it doesn’t need or want to do anything.

Mssrs Forsyth, Whitefied, Reiss and Spruston will feed the industry chooks for a few months to keep them distracted, the report of the review will be feted by the usual suspects then gather dust in the usual way. Job done.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 03:20
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Someone should get rid of the rooster. He keeps turning the light off at the end of the tunnel.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 07:29
  #70 (permalink)  

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Creamie me old,

i have stayed away from these forums as apart from the same old, same old, not much of any proactive stuff I see, with the same tired old characters endlessly remembering the war and past glories.

i am disappointed that your continued exposure to it and the gallant efforts to maintain CDF here have blunted your previous edge.

Our friend Sunfish is right it can be done.

i have been called a lot of things mostly on these forums but naive I'm not when I say that I think this Government is waay different and the the terms of the review are very well informed and serious in their intent.

if you don't embrace change it will never happen

The usual suspects around here need to get their heads out of that place and get working on a really professional submission simply stating the issues, facts and recommendations and devoid of war stories, ego, grandstanding or personnel assassination, they have not the time nor interest

i have seen a couple of proposed industry submissions and I can only say they were so incompetent i would be ashamed to be included as one of said industry. If that the best we can do then God help us.

i know at least two of the panel fairly well and that will an instant turn off.

These guys have serious creds.

Get help, professional help in defining and framing up your submission and go do it.

This will be the last chance in most of our lifetimes.

Good luck
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 08:03
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Gaunty me old,
there is really only two real issues.

1. Do you support an aviation industry in Australia or not?

2. Do you accept that corruption within the current regulator is perfectly acceptable or not?

If the answer to 1. is yes then there needs to be some fundamental changes in the way we regulate, because right now we are exporting our industry to our neighbours who have proper regulations.

If the answer to 2. is yes, then we are all screwed, not just the aviation industry, "banana republic" comes to mind.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 08:07
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Great to hear from you, gaunty!

I agree: It can be done.

I agree: It can be done, but only if it’s done professionally.

I’ve been trying to make those very points - evidently poorly.

I’d add only this: Unless the non-major party aligned Senators with effect 1 July 2014 are convinced of the benefits of the recommendations arising from the ‘review’, those recommendations ain’t goin’ nowhere, ‘serious creds’ or not.

So….. some - in my opinion, most - of that professional submission-making horsepower must, in my opinion, be allocated to convincing non-major party aligned Senators with effect 1 July 2014 in parallel to the review.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 08:26
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Bloody hell, Gaunty of all people! Here, giving advice!

i know at least two of the panel fairly well and that will an instant turn off.
I guess you don't like them?

These guys have serious creds.
No, I guess you like them after all?

i have seen a couple of proposed industry submissions and I can only say they were so incompetent
So this is why you would be ashamed to be party to "that" industry, or have you now entertained the idea of putting your own submission for us to judge your competence? Maybe you and Creamy should do a joint submission?

One thing is for sure, we can't call you a "usual suspect", being unusual and all that.

BTW Are you still painting that pot black?
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 20:53
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Creampuff is simply wrong about government motivation to do any thing.

Repeat after me: jobs, investment, growth.

I am in sunny Broome at present. Do you think I could find someone to fly me to Cape Leveque and back yesterday? Nope.

All I see at present everywhere I go are parked aircraft. Port Hedland tonight if I don't hit a Roo.

Jobs, investment, growth. those are the three buttons that MUST be pushed in EVERY submission.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 21:06
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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So where does ‘stop the boats’ fit into that mantra, oh government guru?

The new government’s highest priority has nothing to do with jobs, investment or growth.

It’s all about populism, sunny, because it’s all about gaining and maintaining power.

And aviation reform doesn’t make a schmick of difference to any government’s electoral fortunes.

How the non major party aligned Senators vote, does.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 21:25
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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AH Creamy , Words, Words, lots of words, no affirmative thought or let alone action, but lots of words.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 22:03
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Creampuff, you just wait until the economy craters a little more. Once that happens the Governments ONLY priorities will be jobs, investment and growth. I worked in Government during Jeff Kennetts tenure when Victoria was a basket case and when it's " man the pumps" time, jobs investment and growth are all that matters.

That is why I said in my template for the review is that the first thing that needs to be done is for an economist to run a tape measure over the segments, charter, GA, regional and recreation and set out the number of jobs , investment and growth history of each of them.

It is then a simple step to look at the impediments to more jobs, more investment and more growth and make assumptions about what employment and investment and growth could be generated is the impediments were removed.

If the job growth and dollar numbers are substantially positive and big enough, then tHe Government will move, if not, you are stuck with CASA(the main impediment).
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Old 27th Nov 2013, 01:33
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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AH Creamy , Words, Words, lots of words, no affirmative thought or let alone action, but lots of words.
My apologies.

I thought that pointing out what I consider to be the only remotely realistic and practical way of bringing about real change might be helpful.

And you wonder why GA in Australia is treated like a doormat.
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Old 27th Nov 2013, 04:30
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Come in spinner?

You know its funny, but among the pagan peoples of ancient times, including the Greeks and Romans, one’s fate, particularly the length of the individual’s life, was often considered to be determined beforehand for all individuals by the gods. This could be likened to an operators AOC or COA, with CAsA as ‘he who holds your fate in his hands’. Grecian mythology represented the control of men’s destiny by three goddesses (or modern day DAS’s);

Clotho (spinner), who spun the thread of life. Or who today spins the facts in general! A lot of spinning is coming up when the Truss review hits full tilt. Then you have;

Lachesis (disposer of lots), who determined the length of life. Or by today’s standard determines how long you keep your AOC or COA, which in turn determines whether you will have an inheritance to leave your kids or if you will be sent to the wall. And they dispose of your lots when you win in the AAT and they then still fight you in court. And;

Atropos (inflexible), who cut life off when the time expired. Once the CAsA have had enough of playing with you, wringing you out and running your fighting funds into the sewer they bury the hatchet on you.

A similar triad was found among the Roman deities. So my guess is that CAsA actually has bloodlines that stretch back to the Roman Empire. Spooky isn’t it?
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Old 27th Nov 2013, 06:26
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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I see your point. There was a lot of incest going on then and now. Some say it's a rite of passage, or is that right of passage?


Enter the rough end of the pineapple to use on someone's passage, right?
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