When is the next cull at QF Engineering?
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: London-Thailand-Australia
Age: 15
Posts: 1,057
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The aircraft engineers’ union has made a last ditch effort to get Qantas to keep open its heavy maintenance base at Avalon Airport near Geelong, including an offer for workers to take long periods of leave without pay.
The axe has been hovering over the aircraft maintenance base at Avalon since last year, when Qantas began to consolidate its engineering operations around the country.
Qantas says it faces up to 10 months over the next two years when it will not have any aircraft undergoing maintenance at Avalon due to it gradually retiring its fleet of Boeing 747-400 jumbos.
The Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association made a confidential proposal to Qantas three weeks ago, which included an offer for workers to take three months’ leave without pay over the next two years.
Advertisement
But the talks between the two broke down early today when Qantas proposed to involve other unions and inform the workforce at Avalon about the plans for staff to take unpaid leave.
ALAEA president Paul Cousins said the proposal would save Qantas up to $10 million, and allow the airline to keep the Avalon workshops open while it awaits for more aircraft engineering work.
‘‘At the moment the company has said they will have a review – but the code-word for ‘review’ is ‘shutdown’,’’ he said. ‘‘The goal [of Qantas] is to send all work overseas.’’
The axe has been hovering over the aircraft maintenance base at Avalon since last year, when Qantas began to consolidate its engineering operations around the country.
Qantas says it faces up to 10 months over the next two years when it will not have any aircraft undergoing maintenance at Avalon due to it gradually retiring its fleet of Boeing 747-400 jumbos.
The Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association made a confidential proposal to Qantas three weeks ago, which included an offer for workers to take three months’ leave without pay over the next two years.
Advertisement
But the talks between the two broke down early today when Qantas proposed to involve other unions and inform the workforce at Avalon about the plans for staff to take unpaid leave.
ALAEA president Paul Cousins said the proposal would save Qantas up to $10 million, and allow the airline to keep the Avalon workshops open while it awaits for more aircraft engineering work.
‘‘At the moment the company has said they will have a review – but the code-word for ‘review’ is ‘shutdown’,’’ he said. ‘‘The goal [of Qantas] is to send all work overseas.’’
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qantas wanted a review where is their proposal,if they wants to shutdown why review ,is it all smokescreen to please the government and public or some sort of conspiracy going on.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bexley
Posts: 1,792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So the ALAEA put a "secret" proposal to Qantas almost 3 weeks ago did they? A proposal that forces us to take anywhere between 3 to 5 months without pay per year. And when did they discuss this proposal with us workers and sought our support?
Mistake number one was to put the proposal to Qantas in the first place as it offers no long term solution to the bigger problem.
Mistake number two was to make the offer "secretely" without all of us having some say.
Mistake number three was to then go to the media and claim that somehow we, those directly impacted, supported the proposal assuming Qantas had agreed.
Steve, the day the Association decides to become a dictatorship, you lose my membership, my respect and my support. Today is that day.
Mistake number one was to put the proposal to Qantas in the first place as it offers no long term solution to the bigger problem.
Mistake number two was to make the offer "secretely" without all of us having some say.
Mistake number three was to then go to the media and claim that somehow we, those directly impacted, supported the proposal assuming Qantas had agreed.
Steve, the day the Association decides to become a dictatorship, you lose my membership, my respect and my support. Today is that day.
- You will get to vote on this
That is not a dictatorship. Other option is that they will close you down, a decision we have been told was made some time ago. If the proposal does come in, you will also have an option to take VR beforehand. Again that decision will be yours.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melbourne
Age: 57
Posts: 628
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I realise it hurts genx and Jethro, but your Union just took a major step towards being a professional partner.
I don't mean that in some condescending way, I mean it in that the ALAEA are looking for solutions to keep jobs in a high cost environment. You can yell and scream and do all the traditional things that Unions do, that will just hasten the process. You have to find a new way of doing things and like it or not that is what the ALAEA are trying.
And no, they can't go to the floor with the proposal first. They need to find something that COULD keep your jobs and then bring it back. Avalon is a disaster to try and keep afloat, the whitespace is a killer. Give Steve and the ALAEA credit for tying to find something to keep you going.
True, you may not like it. But the alternative is very clearly to shutdown.
Neither are particularly palatable choices, but that choice is one that is and has been staring you in the face for some time. Fortunately you have a mature level of management in your Union who are obviously trying to find genuine solutions.
I don't mean that in some condescending way, I mean it in that the ALAEA are looking for solutions to keep jobs in a high cost environment. You can yell and scream and do all the traditional things that Unions do, that will just hasten the process. You have to find a new way of doing things and like it or not that is what the ALAEA are trying.
And no, they can't go to the floor with the proposal first. They need to find something that COULD keep your jobs and then bring it back. Avalon is a disaster to try and keep afloat, the whitespace is a killer. Give Steve and the ALAEA credit for tying to find something to keep you going.
True, you may not like it. But the alternative is very clearly to shutdown.
Neither are particularly palatable choices, but that choice is one that is and has been staring you in the face for some time. Fortunately you have a mature level of management in your Union who are obviously trying to find genuine solutions.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A spokesman for Qantas said it was not clear how the proposal solved the problem ''that there is no work in the hangar for around five months each year for the next four years''.
He said the airline had spent six weeks looking at options to keep maintenance staff employed, including the one from the engineers association.
Read more: Qantas staff make desperate offer
-------------------------SO WHERE iS QANTAS OPTIONS------------------------
He said the airline had spent six weeks looking at options to keep maintenance staff employed, including the one from the engineers association.
Read more: Qantas staff make desperate offer
-------------------------SO WHERE iS QANTAS OPTIONS------------------------
Last edited by Bagus; 31st Oct 2013 at 20:08.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bexley
Posts: 1,792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thought I would respond to some of your comments also genxfrog.
This is not true. The proposal we have put allows Forstaff to force you to take up to 3 months maximum LWOP in 2014 only. In return they must guarantee employment to the end of 2015.
Compared to the other option (being made redundant very soon) over the two year period you will give them 13 weeks pay in exchange for 13 weeks time off. You will also accrue 7 weeks annual leave, 15 days LSL and add 6 weeks pay to your potential redundancy package by adding 2 years service.
I am not aware of any employer who can guarantee employment forever. Two years is better than none and it gives us a chance to add to that. A number of prospects are out there such as Virgin or Jetstar work that we are also discussing with the Airport, Govts, Qantas and Forstaff.
As already explained, you get the final say on this. It would not have worked the other way around.
We did not tell the media that members supported the proposal. We said it would be put to a vote and didn't say that Qantas had agreed either.
So the ALAEA put a "secret" proposal to Qantas almost 3 weeks ago did they? A proposal that forces us to take anywhere between 3 to 5 months without pay per year.
Compared to the other option (being made redundant very soon) over the two year period you will give them 13 weeks pay in exchange for 13 weeks time off. You will also accrue 7 weeks annual leave, 15 days LSL and add 6 weeks pay to your potential redundancy package by adding 2 years service.
Mistake number one was to put the proposal to Qantas in the first place as it offers no long term solution to the bigger problem.
Mistake number two was to make the offer "secretely" without all of us having some say.
Mistake number three was to then go to the media and claim that somehow we, those directly impacted, supported the proposal assuming Qantas had agreed.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Genxfrog,out there things are much worse,Alaea proposal will make qantas to come to the party whether they agree or not they are due to say something or counter proposal and our vote will determine it.
Apprentices think twice before joining this industry.Hate aviation.
Apprentices think twice before joining this industry.Hate aviation.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aviation is a wonderful industry. But its a bugger to make money out of. This discussion is way over due. Romulus is spot on, the ALAEA is showing some leadership here and could quickly turn the tables. The problem is the 74s are retiring and no one is going to put in that much effort with such a short timeframe. AVV needs another line of aircraft. Qantas is notorious for being reluctant to take IR risk. You guys should be thinking about how you can make it attractive to bring in other aircraft types. Its not about pay rates any more, its about overheads and efficiency. Avalon could make a huge impact on its cost base by tackling supervision, AME/LAME ratios, training, white space, MPD multipliers. Much can be done. Then at worst you go out fighting!
Good luck!
Good luck!
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think ALAEA should open up Forstaff enterprise bargaining and negotiate on good fate as the best possible outcome for Avalon on reduce cost base ,productivity ,efficiency so that other aircraft type can be done here.maybe that's what Qantas want.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think ALAEA should open up Forstaff enterprise bargaining and negotiate on good fate as the best possible outcome for Avalon on reduce cost base ,productivity ,efficiency so that other aircraft type can be done here.maybe that's what Qantas want.
If I remember correctly you did just that, to secure the Reconfigs. This was against the ALAEA recommendation at the time I think. (But the ALAEA still supported the workers decision).
So you got the reconfigs and then lost what, 3 'D' checks?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bexley
Posts: 1,792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The eba already caters for many types of aircraft. The blokes are qualified and ready to go on 738 work that can't fit in Bne. We are also trying to secure grants from the govt for 320 licence training so jetstar work can come in.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's truly a big disappointment that despite spending 6 weeks seeking a solution, (or so they say) Qantas was unable to find one.
Under the ALAEA proposal, if agreed, jobs might be saved for a time. I say might, because this is not an honourable company.
Absolutely, and the the fact is that negotiations for EBA's are carried out in similar circumstances coming at a time when there is disagreement and rejection of a company's offer. New ground to "get the deal done and accepted by the work force" is found by thinking differently.
The ALAEA is not just a conduit for good news and bad news. Their job is to improve the lot of their members whatever form that takes. When the jobs of their members are threatened by lack of business in this case, they have to find ways to improve the outcome.
I have never seen any other union do anything other than roll over or engage in some fruitless, pointless industrial action.
I hope that some common sense prevails here, but I'm not confident that Forstaff and Qantas will agree to a proposal put by the ALAEA because it WAS the ALAEA.
Under the ALAEA proposal, if agreed, jobs might be saved for a time. I say might, because this is not an honourable company.
And no, they can't go to the floor with the proposal first. They need to find something that COULD keep your jobs and then bring it back. Avalon is a disaster to try and keep afloat, the whitespace is a killer. Give Steve and the ALAEA credit for tying to find something to keep you going.
The ALAEA is not just a conduit for good news and bad news. Their job is to improve the lot of their members whatever form that takes. When the jobs of their members are threatened by lack of business in this case, they have to find ways to improve the outcome.
I have never seen any other union do anything other than roll over or engage in some fruitless, pointless industrial action.
I hope that some common sense prevails here, but I'm not confident that Forstaff and Qantas will agree to a proposal put by the ALAEA because it WAS the ALAEA.
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Twilight Zone
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't understand how some of us still behave like this has come as a shock. We should remind ourselves that when Qantas announced it was closing HM Tullamarine almost 18 months ago, Avalon would be next in a matter of time. What did we and our Association do during the period between then and now? Why didn't we get on the front foot and engage Forstaff and Qantas knowing full well that this was coming. 6 weeks of rhetoric with representatives of a company that is willing to ground it's whole fleet to prove a point is pointless.
The reality hurts but it is what it is. Qantas have no further use for us and we have served them longer than we all thought. Qantas under Dixon and now Joyce have always focused on cost cutting by off shoring. Bring Nazistein into the equation and he just simply pressed the fast forward button to achieve this outcome.
To genuinely believe that a proposal to allow us to take up to 5 months unpaid leave (depending on which version of the proposal is believable) would save us is incredibly naive. We don't earn the amounts of money that would sustain up to 5 months of unpaid leave and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know this. At the end of the day, our Association and those who represent us should have run this idea past us members first. To be absolutely blunt, don't they get paid by us and therefore work for us?
I applaud doing anything we can but there's got to be some logic applied and I think this was just a knee jerk proposal without a proper thought process being used.
Right now I think the focus and the best and possibly only thing left to do is pursue a better redundancy clause in our EBA negotiations which includes arrangements to assist us in finding other employment or training to move into other industries when we get our marching orders out of here.
I expect further criticism about my comments but speaking to those I work with, it's a common view we have and should prepare ourselves for.
The reality hurts but it is what it is. Qantas have no further use for us and we have served them longer than we all thought. Qantas under Dixon and now Joyce have always focused on cost cutting by off shoring. Bring Nazistein into the equation and he just simply pressed the fast forward button to achieve this outcome.
To genuinely believe that a proposal to allow us to take up to 5 months unpaid leave (depending on which version of the proposal is believable) would save us is incredibly naive. We don't earn the amounts of money that would sustain up to 5 months of unpaid leave and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know this. At the end of the day, our Association and those who represent us should have run this idea past us members first. To be absolutely blunt, don't they get paid by us and therefore work for us?
I applaud doing anything we can but there's got to be some logic applied and I think this was just a knee jerk proposal without a proper thought process being used.
Right now I think the focus and the best and possibly only thing left to do is pursue a better redundancy clause in our EBA negotiations which includes arrangements to assist us in finding other employment or training to move into other industries when we get our marching orders out of here.
I expect further criticism about my comments but speaking to those I work with, it's a common view we have and should prepare ourselves for.
Last edited by genxfrog; 1st Nov 2013 at 12:18.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melbourne
Age: 57
Posts: 628
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Genx, in part you are correct, you need to prepare for redundancy, it is the most likely outcome.
Equally the ALAEA are looking for an alternate, any alternate. It may come to nothing, it may be unpalatable but they are trying to find SOMETHING.
Would you accept a mechanism that gives reduced hours?
Would you accept a mechanism that gives you an extra 3 months paid holiday a year but reduces your wage by about 25% (i.e. by the amount you work less)?
Would you accept a model that sees you work a lot of hours when there is work and no hours when there is no work? What if the pay was smoothed over the two types of time?
The simple fact is Avalon is almost certainly history. You are in the so called Piper Alpha situation. The place is burning down around you, you can go to the crew galley (following procedure) and wait or you can take a plunge over the edge. The guys in the galley died, some of those who jumped lived.
It's a sucky choice, but if you're going to get any result other than closure you have to go pretty extreme. Simple as that.
Equally the ALAEA are looking for an alternate, any alternate. It may come to nothing, it may be unpalatable but they are trying to find SOMETHING.
Would you accept a mechanism that gives reduced hours?
Would you accept a mechanism that gives you an extra 3 months paid holiday a year but reduces your wage by about 25% (i.e. by the amount you work less)?
Would you accept a model that sees you work a lot of hours when there is work and no hours when there is no work? What if the pay was smoothed over the two types of time?
The simple fact is Avalon is almost certainly history. You are in the so called Piper Alpha situation. The place is burning down around you, you can go to the crew galley (following procedure) and wait or you can take a plunge over the edge. The guys in the galley died, some of those who jumped lived.
It's a sucky choice, but if you're going to get any result other than closure you have to go pretty extreme. Simple as that.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bexley
Posts: 1,792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jethro you must know the wrong guys.
There is only one version. Some people may be telling you porky pies but you can't get it more from the horses mouth than me publishing it here. It is up to 3 months LWOP in 2014 only and none in 2015.
Totally. It is an honour to Represent my former workmates. This situation is extremely emotive. What we have done was well thought out, based on member surveys and feedback and better than the other unions or Qantas/Forstaff who have thrown up nothing. If accepted by Qf the vote will be yours.
This is not a better strategy. Please think it through. The plan of the company is to sack the workers. Most workers want a job. If we walk in and say we want better redundancy payouts they will just say no. We can ask 100 times, the answer will be the same. Why would a company that faces millions of dollars in payouts just agree to add to that amount? If we take action they will just shut down. They planned to anyway.
Romulus things are not looking solid for Avalon's long term prospects but there opportunities on the horizon. Aviation is growing and aircraft will need to be maintained somewhere. Melbourne is spreading West and in 20 years it will be as busy as Adelaide may be today.
Don't give up guys. The ALAEA haven't. We meet again with Qantas 12pm next Wed.
To genuinely believe that a proposal to allow us to take up to 5 months unpaid leave (depending on which version of the proposal is believable)
To be absolutely blunt, don't they get paid by us and therefore work for us?
Right now I think the focus and the best and possibly only thing left to do is pursue a better redundancy clause in our EBA negotiations
Romulus things are not looking solid for Avalon's long term prospects but there opportunities on the horizon. Aviation is growing and aircraft will need to be maintained somewhere. Melbourne is spreading West and in 20 years it will be as busy as Adelaide may be today.
Don't give up guys. The ALAEA haven't. We meet again with Qantas 12pm next Wed.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qantas is destroying the moral not only in Avalon but whole organization ,Joyce wake up and take control,you are loosing the trust from your employees,how would this help you making qantas profitable,enough has a limit put trust back in engineering.