When is the next cull at QF Engineering?
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Silverado,
You're off course here.
Forstaff Aviation is a contract company and it's employees are just that.
It's the company that obtains contracts and the employees work them as required. They are permanent employees of the contract company.
Contractor workers on the other hand, work to fulfil a contract to which they have agreed. They are not permanent employees and will be terminated under the conditions of the contract which is usually a time period, viz 3, 6, 12 months.
If you want to debate the point, it's also pointless because Jethro and Qantas employees are in the same boat confronting the same issue of "will I be without a job when all this stops?"
Taking cheap shots at people who are facing unemployment is unconscionable and you should look at both sides of this story.
Concerned LAME,
Your posts on this issue are a contradiction to your name. These are very worried people whose future is ending. Those employees at Avalon don't need being told that at all.
You're off course here.
Forstaff Aviation is a contract company and it's employees are just that.
It's the company that obtains contracts and the employees work them as required. They are permanent employees of the contract company.
Contractor workers on the other hand, work to fulfil a contract to which they have agreed. They are not permanent employees and will be terminated under the conditions of the contract which is usually a time period, viz 3, 6, 12 months.
If you want to debate the point, it's also pointless because Jethro and Qantas employees are in the same boat confronting the same issue of "will I be without a job when all this stops?"
Taking cheap shots at people who are facing unemployment is unconscionable and you should look at both sides of this story.
Concerned LAME,
Your posts on this issue are a contradiction to your name. These are very worried people whose future is ending. Those employees at Avalon don't need being told that at all.
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And round and round in circles we go.
Aeromedic, everyone is fully aware of the type of employment that Forstaff workers are engaged in with Forstaff.
What I was alerting Jethro to, is his use of the description "Independent Contractor", which no one has claimed Forstaff employees to be.
I get it Jethro, AVV closure is a fait accompli
Lets take the thread back to its title "When is the next cull at QF Engineering"
Perhaps someone else can shed some light on what was said in S.A.M. yesterday by Tony Lowery.
Aeromedic, everyone is fully aware of the type of employment that Forstaff workers are engaged in with Forstaff.
What I was alerting Jethro to, is his use of the description "Independent Contractor", which no one has claimed Forstaff employees to be.
You just don't get it.
Lets take the thread back to its title "When is the next cull at QF Engineering"
Perhaps someone else can shed some light on what was said in S.A.M. yesterday by Tony Lowery.
Last edited by Silverado; 12th Feb 2014 at 09:42.
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I don't often agree with Steve, but I 100% do in this case.
During a toolbox talk with Chris N when I was with QF, he straight out said that if Qantas had their time over, they'd never have based heavy maintenance in Australia, it'd be 100% offshore.
I don't know if they'll ever achieve their heinous goals, but they certainly seem to be trying!
During a toolbox talk with Chris N when I was with QF, he straight out said that if Qantas had their time over, they'd never have based heavy maintenance in Australia, it'd be 100% offshore.
I don't know if they'll ever achieve their heinous goals, but they certainly seem to be trying!
The benefits of moving Qantas maintenance and overhaul overseas, from a management perspective include:
1) Qantas engineering management is not required to demonstrate any in depth knowledge of maintenance practices, procedures or strategies, Any potential incompetence or negligence on their part can be conveniently masked by reference to the MRO, which will take the blame...for a price.
2) A good MRO marketing team will stroke, massage and titillate the Qantas Engineering Management team as far as is legally possible. They will also be on the lookout for any vices (gluttony, etc.) displayed by the managment team and attempt to satisfy them as well as far as is legally possible. This is an extremely pleasant situation for a manager to find themselves.
3) The Engineering management team will never become bored because of the tremendous and pleasant travel opportunities a good overseas MRO will continuously generate for them. These will include not only visits to the MRO's facilities, but an endless string of conferences, meetings and information sessions at stellar tourism locations.
Compared to sitting in an office close to a hangar and perhaps having to deal occasionally with people who have dirt under their fingernails, more real experience than you can ever hope for and who do not hang on your every word, outsourcing to an overseas MRO is a wet dream.*
*And yes, I've had it all tried on me at various times. I almost weakend when told by the outsourcer " We are having a conference in New York Two weeks from now and we really think it would be good for you to be there."
1) Qantas engineering management is not required to demonstrate any in depth knowledge of maintenance practices, procedures or strategies, Any potential incompetence or negligence on their part can be conveniently masked by reference to the MRO, which will take the blame...for a price.
2) A good MRO marketing team will stroke, massage and titillate the Qantas Engineering Management team as far as is legally possible. They will also be on the lookout for any vices (gluttony, etc.) displayed by the managment team and attempt to satisfy them as well as far as is legally possible. This is an extremely pleasant situation for a manager to find themselves.
3) The Engineering management team will never become bored because of the tremendous and pleasant travel opportunities a good overseas MRO will continuously generate for them. These will include not only visits to the MRO's facilities, but an endless string of conferences, meetings and information sessions at stellar tourism locations.
Compared to sitting in an office close to a hangar and perhaps having to deal occasionally with people who have dirt under their fingernails, more real experience than you can ever hope for and who do not hang on your every word, outsourcing to an overseas MRO is a wet dream.*
*And yes, I've had it all tried on me at various times. I almost weakend when told by the outsourcer " We are having a conference in New York Two weeks from now and we really think it would be good for you to be there."
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FTP Thanks for that!
Considering that this is the first post and title of this thread
The changes in QF Engineering very much affect me!
SP's comment while true, doesn't present the facts, it's more scaremongering that I'd normally see from an internet troll.
TL and CN have 2 issues to contend with before they could offshore all Qantas maintenance;
1. The Qantas Sale Act
2. The fact that many Qantas aircraft don't leave the country, and all of them pass through Australia on a regular basis.
They can (and may) outsource all the Line maintenance. But the lions share of it will be done in Australia by people employed in Australia. It appears that there are many job losses and changes afoot in line and at least for the LAME population, if it's not LOFO then anyone without a 738, A330 or A380 licence can kiss their job at QF good bye.
Base maintenance on the other hand can be fully off shored, but again the QSA may hinder them at this stage. It looks from my perspective, that the Base maintenance changes will now settle for at least the medium term. (Its been very sad to see AVV and MEL go).
Considering that this is the first post and title of this thread
When is the next cull at QF Engineering?
Now that the non-event of the $6M profit has been announced as well as the flight re-shuffle, when is the next round of blood letting to begin?
Rumours are already rife that 200 will go in November, no doubt to coincide with the new schedule.
Uncle Chandra and his band of merry men are willing to take as much work from Australia as Tony and Chris will let him.
744 work will shift from SYD to BNE and 330s will be done wherever and whenever they land.
CAT A licencing is about to pick up and overtake all other training, tug drivers are also willing to hop on and fix an aircraft, because as QF sees them, most of them already have 2 years or more in the industry.
Now that the non-event of the $6M profit has been announced as well as the flight re-shuffle, when is the next round of blood letting to begin?
Rumours are already rife that 200 will go in November, no doubt to coincide with the new schedule.
Uncle Chandra and his band of merry men are willing to take as much work from Australia as Tony and Chris will let him.
744 work will shift from SYD to BNE and 330s will be done wherever and whenever they land.
CAT A licencing is about to pick up and overtake all other training, tug drivers are also willing to hop on and fix an aircraft, because as QF sees them, most of them already have 2 years or more in the industry.
SP's comment while true, doesn't present the facts, it's more scaremongering that I'd normally see from an internet troll.
TL and CN have 2 issues to contend with before they could offshore all Qantas maintenance;
1. The Qantas Sale Act
2. The fact that many Qantas aircraft don't leave the country, and all of them pass through Australia on a regular basis.
They can (and may) outsource all the Line maintenance. But the lions share of it will be done in Australia by people employed in Australia. It appears that there are many job losses and changes afoot in line and at least for the LAME population, if it's not LOFO then anyone without a 738, A330 or A380 licence can kiss their job at QF good bye.
Base maintenance on the other hand can be fully off shored, but again the QSA may hinder them at this stage. It looks from my perspective, that the Base maintenance changes will now settle for at least the medium term. (Its been very sad to see AVV and MEL go).
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There is one singular agenda on CN and TL's mind - break the union.
1. Cull LAME numbers, by the hundreds. Watch for AJ's announcement on the 27/2 and thereafter as they continue to seek efficiencies.
2. Beef up management (no expense spared here) - Ops managers, everywhere - WHY?, in this time of financial distress.
3. HR manager - Ex Senior Counsel of Freehills worked with Patricks on waterfront reforms (the scenario sounds very familiar).
4. Changes to maintenance planning. ie less work.
5. Cat A certifiers. And a contract workforce probably already in training, think, the Americas and Philippines.
6. Retiring of the legacy fleet, less work again, more LAMEs ... gone.
7. An onside LNP government demanding that the airline "get it's house in order", ie, attack their workplace conditions, with their blessing.
For those still standing expect an EBA negotiated on a one way street.
Rostering, redundant licenses, grade levels, customer type payments, penalty rates maybe even redundancy clauses are all up for the axing in one way or another. The airline has spent quite some time, resources and money gearing up for this 'war' whilst we go about doing a decent days work.
Are you getting the picture and that warm and fuzzy feeling that you're a valued employ? Hang on to your hats (and wallets) boys and girls coz these guys are out to shaft you.
And if you believe them, there will be a better and more prosperous QE at the end of all this.
1. Cull LAME numbers, by the hundreds. Watch for AJ's announcement on the 27/2 and thereafter as they continue to seek efficiencies.
2. Beef up management (no expense spared here) - Ops managers, everywhere - WHY?, in this time of financial distress.
3. HR manager - Ex Senior Counsel of Freehills worked with Patricks on waterfront reforms (the scenario sounds very familiar).
4. Changes to maintenance planning. ie less work.
5. Cat A certifiers. And a contract workforce probably already in training, think, the Americas and Philippines.
6. Retiring of the legacy fleet, less work again, more LAMEs ... gone.
7. An onside LNP government demanding that the airline "get it's house in order", ie, attack their workplace conditions, with their blessing.
For those still standing expect an EBA negotiated on a one way street.
Rostering, redundant licenses, grade levels, customer type payments, penalty rates maybe even redundancy clauses are all up for the axing in one way or another. The airline has spent quite some time, resources and money gearing up for this 'war' whilst we go about doing a decent days work.
Are you getting the picture and that warm and fuzzy feeling that you're a valued employ? Hang on to your hats (and wallets) boys and girls coz these guys are out to shaft you.
And if you believe them, there will be a better and more prosperous QE at the end of all this.
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We all knew that the LAME workforce was going to be massacred, when the company agreed to the document that was rubber stamped by FWA as our Workplace Determination.
What amazes me is that Qantas didn't have the mettle to push through their IR agenda then. Most LAME's I talk to believe we got a better WD/EBA than we really wanted/expected. I suspect, for those LAME's that weather the storm, will again get an EBA that is considered reasonable.
If Qantas was offered Jetstar EBA terms and conditions by the ALAEA, I'm confident they would turn it down and we would end up with more of the same (albeit with a smaller and smaller LAME workforce).
I put it to any manager reading this thread, that you don't have the balls to make any real changes to the EBA/WD. You will play hard ball during the protracted, so called negotiations and then fold and whimper away. With your only resolve to reduce the workforce further! You will be left with an EBA, that you will complain is unsustainable and you will be right. You will whinge about the ALAEA and take no responsibility for your failings!
What amazes me is that Qantas didn't have the mettle to push through their IR agenda then. Most LAME's I talk to believe we got a better WD/EBA than we really wanted/expected. I suspect, for those LAME's that weather the storm, will again get an EBA that is considered reasonable.
If Qantas was offered Jetstar EBA terms and conditions by the ALAEA, I'm confident they would turn it down and we would end up with more of the same (albeit with a smaller and smaller LAME workforce).
I put it to any manager reading this thread, that you don't have the balls to make any real changes to the EBA/WD. You will play hard ball during the protracted, so called negotiations and then fold and whimper away. With your only resolve to reduce the workforce further! You will be left with an EBA, that you will complain is unsustainable and you will be right. You will whinge about the ALAEA and take no responsibility for your failings!
Last edited by Silverado; 14th Feb 2014 at 04:34. Reason: Clipped your right, they live by the theory of "if at first you don't succeed, a bigger hammer is what you need"
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In the wake of the Alcoa announcement today The Committee for Geelong claimed they are working with Avalon Qantas and Forstaff to transition staff and help them question is has anyone heard from them or even know who they are .
Committee for Geelong - Committee for Geelong
Committee for Geelong - Committee for Geelong
Bagus:
The way Abbott and Co. are operating, there will be no negotiation next time. You will simply be told. Furthermore, the Labor Party won't come to your aid either.
Good luck to qantas one base policy heavy maintenance,next eba will be interesting negotiation.TL and CN time out.
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Sunfish, in case you can't count, LABOR has been in power for the last 7 years. No one is to blame for this **** except Rudd, Gillard and their Labor party cronies. Then you add unions into the mix, work out that at places like QF, Alcoa etc un-skilled labour simply can't get paid $100K+++.
How hard is that to work out. Now everyone screams for Abbott to fix it in 3 months. Haha. It only going to get worse.
How hard is that to work out. Now everyone screams for Abbott to fix it in 3 months. Haha. It only going to get worse.