Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific
Reload this Page >

Virgin Aircraft 'Emergency' Landing

Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Virgin Aircraft 'Emergency' Landing

Old 25th Jul 2013, 12:40
  #761 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Up The 116E, Stbd Turn at 32S...:-)
Age: 82
Posts: 3,093
Received 44 Likes on 20 Posts
Oh, I dunno Zarg, YPKG (OCTA) was a good altn for many a jet RPT, in dem good ole days......as were many other locations OCTA...
Meeka was an INTL Altn.... Imagine the looks on the faces at the many windows looking at '****-all' @ that!
Ex FSO GRIFFO is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 17:47
  #762 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: YMML
Posts: 1,837
Received 16 Likes on 6 Posts
Met is a lot like horse racing. Sometimes the nag at 100:1 comes through. Just because PROB05 isn't on the forecast doesn't mean it isn't there.

**** happens occasionally and the low odds come up trumps. You could make the BOM put PROB01 on the TAF and it would still go wrong 1% of the time.
le Pingouin is online now  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 21:06
  #763 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You could make the BOM put PROB01 on the TAF and it would still go wrong 1% of the time.
Which is exactly why this third world country should align itself with the majority of other third world countries and have the infrastructure and necessary equipment to function under these conditions!
fl610 is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 21:37
  #764 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Zarg,

I think the point that's being made is that in times past, there would have been a much closer operational watch and much more support well before the aircraft departed "controlled airspace".

Affordable safety?????
Led Zeppelin is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 22:51
  #765 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Eastside
Posts: 634
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
For probs less than 30, I only discovered recently that there are Aerodrome Briefings available from BoM/ ASA for ml, sy, ph, bn and ad that include a plain text decode of the taf as well as listing chances of ts, fog, etc, that are considered less than 30%. It's quite a handy bit of extra information and worth checking out.

Having said that, I have no idea what it happened to say on the day of this fog.
grrowler is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 23:18
  #766 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oz
Posts: 538
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
The MIA AWIS was U/S at the time.
Sorry, I missed that bit.
One other thing not mentioned for ops control, was that ATC could look at the actual wx and put their own requirement on it that was contrary to the forecast. I don't remember TTFs being in operation prior to ops control closing down.

"Adelaide requires alternate due unforecast fog, ATC operational requirement, Perth, Alice Springs suitable, advise alternate, endurance remaining etc"

Last edited by topdrop; 25th Jul 2013 at 23:20.
topdrop is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2013, 00:24
  #767 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: S.O.E.
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I can see one ATSB recommendation that companies beef up their flight following/operational control capability significantly to make sure the PIC is adequately resourced in flight.

ACARS should be mandatory for all high capacity operations.
Dale Hardale is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2013, 09:44
  #768 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ACARS should be mandatory for all high capacity operations.
Common sense (remember that)? should be mandatory for all high capacity operations, but it isn't!
fl610 is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2013, 11:34
  #769 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: S.O.E.
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Common sense (remember that)? should be mandatory for all high capacity operations, but it isn't!
Flew out the window the moment "affordable safety" became the paradigm.

Thanks Dick for the memories.
Dale Hardale is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2013, 02:05
  #770 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ACARS should be mandatory for all high capacity operations
If memory serves and without going back to the prelim report one of the airlines sat on the changed weather report for 45 minutes prior to sending an ACARS because of sterile cockpit procedures.
Brian Abraham is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2013, 03:35
  #771 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Inside their OODA loop
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Brian, that in itself is interesting. From a crew POV, there are two types of ACARS, a message with a ding dong, and another "silent" type that is pushed directly to the ACARS printer. Sometimes new weather updates are pushed in he second method by the dispatchers. So the sterile argument loses credibility - why not send a silent update as soon as it is know and the message later?
FYSTI is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2013, 05:21
  #772 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Doomadgee
Posts: 279
Received 47 Likes on 25 Posts
Sterile procedures does not mean silence. It means only communication pertinent to the aircraft operation is to be utilised. I should think critical information about airport availability due fog is falls into the allowable operating procedure for the sterile cockpit environment.
Capn Rex Havoc is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2013, 07:52
  #773 (permalink)  
601
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 1,472
Received 17 Likes on 13 Posts
So the sterile argument loses credibility
I would not think that an update on weather is in the same category as discussing nappy changing at 2 am.

Or put it another way:-

Sterile means nothing other than essential duties. I would have thought that weather updates would fall into "essential duties"

And I am sure a 737 does not take 45 minutes from push-back to above 10,000 ft.
601 is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2013, 09:49
  #774 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 1A
Posts: 8,532
Received 72 Likes on 41 Posts
The ACARS thing is a red herring. The QF crew got the message at 2148, just after they got to top of climb out of Sydney, plenty of time to cogitate on it before getting near ADL.

I agree with the sterile cockpit policy re ACARS. Dings or buzzing printers during the takeoff are not good. If the company has a critical message to pass, they can do it thru ATC.
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2013, 10:42
  #775 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: melb
Posts: 2,162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The system has got to allow all A/C inbound to a fog shrouded drome especially when it wasn't forecast initially to be informed asap. It seems insane with all the technology, the huge costs to run our sad aviation industry with poor infrastructure that we can have in this modern day & age an Airliner that could have ended up a smoking hulk at some uncontrolled basic drome or worse some farmers paddock!!!
Flying is only as safe as it's weakest link. The Plane manufacturers go to extraordinary lengths to make their planes safe for us yet we might as well be flying wooden bi-planes as in some ways we haven't learnt a damned thing since the first recorded plane crash!

'601'....45 mins from push back to 10K is fast sometimes from some of our madhouse dromes!


Wmk2
Wally Mk2 is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2013, 11:05
  #776 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Virgin Aircraft 'Emergency' Landing

it is in Brisbane..
Hempy is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2013, 12:23
  #777 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: US
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What was the content of the weather report QF got at 2148?
mrs nomer is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2013, 14:16
  #778 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 1A
Posts: 8,532
Received 72 Likes on 41 Posts
What was the content of the weather report QF got at 2148?
On page 9 of the report.
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2013, 14:48
  #779 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Last time I looked "affordable safety" didn't change the all-important CAR. Neither has common-sense changed.
Derfred is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2013, 23:12
  #780 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: US
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"Affordable safety" might not have changed the CAR, but the support mechanisms in the context of what ATC provides now compared to past times certainly have.

Common sense is a different issue - no doubt there will be judgements made by the ATSB/CASA hindsight committee sitting in cosy offices as to whether common sense prevailed in this instance.
mrs nomer is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.