Virgin Aircraft 'Emergency' Landing
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[QUOTE]....and a HUD with an EVS overlay makes life ever so much more relaxed I would expect (not having had the opportunity to fly one)/QUOTE]
John - it is a beautiful thing!
John - it is a beautiful thing!
Last edited by fl610; 22nd Jul 2013 at 00:41.
If they don't get in to ADL because of fog and they don't have "proper" alternate fuel for MEL (it wasn't ever required), they declare "Minimum Fuel" and 90% of that stuff you mentioned gets chucked out the window
You declare minimum fuel and ATC tell you how long you will hold for. If you cannot make their time it is then up to you to find a new airport.
If you then declare a PAN you can do whatever you want.
If you carry an alternate you have to carry the traffic holding for that alternate. ATC must also understand that if they blow out the holding for whatever reason that should be a automatic hazard alert. Something some of them don't seem to understand.
Another unintended consequence of all this is that if there is unforecasted weather at one airport it can create a nightmare at the nearest alternate as all the diverting traffic get in each other's way and then inconvenience and delay all the scheduled traffic!!
Last edited by neville_nobody; 22nd Jul 2013 at 02:22.
Originally Posted by Neville Nobody
You declare minimum fuel and ATC tell you how long you will hold for. If you cannot make their time it is then up to you to find a new airport.
Keep this in context, NN. I was replying to Framer's stumbling blocks to an unplanned diversion to MEL.
Sorry probably poor wording on my behalf but my point was the minimum fuel call will not do anything for your priority. ATC gives you a landing time if you can make that well and good, if you can't you either have to divert or declare an emergency.
People have learned this the hard way. Diverted without the traffic holding only to be told to wait in a hold with very little fuel in the tanks.
People have learned this the hard way. Diverted without the traffic holding only to be told to wait in a hold with very little fuel in the tanks.
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Just watch an ATC delay you after you've declared minimum fuel...............don't think so
I would NOT be hanging my hat on getting any priority whatsoever with a min fuel call. If you do that's a bonus, but not to work on as a plan and assume it will "just happen".
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Why is there such a hesitation in the civil world when it comes to making a Pan call ?
The military have no such problem ..
Was Avianca 52 so long ago that everyone has forgotten what can happen if ATC is allowed to run the show without the full story ?
The military have no such problem ..
Was Avianca 52 so long ago that everyone has forgotten what can happen if ATC is allowed to run the show without the full story ?
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John, lets just say the longhaul operator in question had a high "power distance index", just like Avianca 52. They were desperate to avoid using the PAN word and danced all around it with all sorts of contortions.
Why is there such a hesitation in the civil world when it comes to making a Pan call ?
QF say nothing and do exactly what VA did and they get away scot free.
Emergency calls are a guaranteed way of making the front page. That's why there is reluctance.
I've made two Pan calls. One front page news, the other not a whisper. Luck of the draw I guess. The Minimum Fuel call gets you no priority but the Pan will. That's just the way it's designed. I've had a conversation with ATC about how we had a pax with chest pains and on oxygen and wanted direct to the field, we were given it then slowed to 230kts and sequenced number five to land with no explanation. I queried that and he said we would need to declare an emergency if we wanted priority. There is no " common sense" involved now days as everyone tries to stick to the 'rules' in order to protect themselves. Both the controller and I have English as a first language and the situation was obvious and understood by both parties, yet the actions didn't reflect that. The ensuing paperwork concluded with the finding that the controller was correct in that I did need to declare a Pan to get priority. Now I know I guess.
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Med 1 or 2...aren't these local procedures for Medivac flights? . A year ago almost to the day a 330 flamed an engine out following diversion from Madrid. ICAO then issued standardised fuel emergency calls. Neville has eluded to them, "Minimum Fuel" is not an emergency and will not get you priority. All it is telling ATC is you have committed to this airfield and any changes to the current clearance will land you below fixed reserve. If the clearance changes, ie you have to hold longer than previously advised the next step is "Mayday Fuel" there is no Pan call in between for the shy and faint of heart.
This must be in Oz regs somewhere so why the confusion?
This must be in Oz regs somewhere so why the confusion?
It is in the Aus regs, fairly new I think but I stand to be corrected.
To be completely honest I can't keep up with all the regs and their changes for all the countries I fly into. I was always of the opinion that 'plain language' was ok in the situation I described but now I know better.
This must be in Oz regs somewhere so why the confusion?
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Med 1/2 now replaced by the ICAO standard 'Medevac' and 'Hospital' terminology in Oz. 'Hospital' priority (declared by medical authorities) is only accorded equal priority with normal RPT but 'Medevac' will definitely deliver you higher priority ("... [MEDEVAC] flights shall be granted priority as necessary" according to the book and it does not specify that it needs to be declared by medical authorities). I would have thought declaring 'Medevac' would have been as good as declaring a PAN for the purpose of communicating the level of priority required from ATC for a sick passenger? Do company SOPs provide any guidelines for this situation and what call should be given?
As the number of medicals increase on RPT we might as well be classified as air ambulances! I had a pax who was unconscious, I didn't want to be dicked around but the aircraft wasn't in any danger so I declared Med 1. Appropriate paperwork filled out at the end of the flight, never heard anymore about it. For me the system worked-on that occasion.
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Neville
Interesting thing that PAN call. I mean what is it and is it defined by unambiguous objective criteria? Urgency. Pretty loose term that can mean different things to different people.
At least MAYDAY is fairly objectively defined as grave and imminent danger.
Landing with 2 tons in the tank versus 500 kg in the tank are two different states with different ramifications.
I would suggest that the later would be considered grave and imminent.
By ICAO definition at least.
In so far as the media is concerned they are only interested in sensationalism I would suggest. As such they are bound to concentrate on an aircraft that declares any type of emergency. Thats just how they work.
I would like to think that the crews involved on the day had more immediate issues to attend to, rather than worry about the media attention.
Interesting thing that PAN call. I mean what is it and is it defined by unambiguous objective criteria? Urgency. Pretty loose term that can mean different things to different people.
At least MAYDAY is fairly objectively defined as grave and imminent danger.
Landing with 2 tons in the tank versus 500 kg in the tank are two different states with different ramifications.
I would suggest that the later would be considered grave and imminent.
By ICAO definition at least.
In so far as the media is concerned they are only interested in sensationalism I would suggest. As such they are bound to concentrate on an aircraft that declares any type of emergency. Thats just how they work.
I would like to think that the crews involved on the day had more immediate issues to attend to, rather than worry about the media attention.
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I would think that if "Medivac" was used by everyone then it may dilute the urgency for those that it was intended. Pan and include the nature of the emergency as medical...done. Mildura (inserted for relevence...
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Do any of you blokes ever read your companies Operations Manuals and apply SOPs as per the manuals? It's all there, you know. Been developed over many, many, years by people far smarter than you or I!
Don't be a hero, just follow SOPs.
Get my drift?
Don't be a hero, just follow SOPs.
Get my drift?