QF1 in BAH

[ferris]

It seems the questions about diversions ex-Dubai have been answered, as the crew on the QF1 last night would've had a very long night after being unable to accept the holding on offer and lobbed in Bahrain.

I understand the holding in Dubai was running around 60 mins at the time (with wx).

[haughtney1]

To be fair, the wx was pretty rank yesterday in DXB...lots of dust and wind followed by decent TS's at about 2130 local for a good few hours.
Cleaned up all the dust and gave my lawn a good watering

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Fantastic electrical show last night in AUH...

[framer]

The weather was not good. They had fuel to divert. They diverted. What part of that is inexcusable? Sounds like airline operations 101 to me.

[Capn Bloggs]

Originally Posted by Twin Beech

How many times was this posted here prior to operations starting?

Route Manual Revision 1 details:

New section: "Consult Prune before operating on new routes".

Originally Posted by Twin Beech

Arriving anywhere new without worst case fuel is inexcusable.

What would be worst-case fuel?

[oz in dxb]

QF1 in BAH
It seems the questions about diversions ex-Dubai have been answered, as the crew on the QF1 last night would've had a very long night after being unable to accept the holding on offer and lobbed in Bahrain.

I understand the holding in Dubai was running around 60 mins at the time (with wx).

Holding time was given by UAE as 2 hours! Left the hold after about 45 mins.

[haughtney1]

Holding time was given by UAE as 2 hours! Left the hold after about 45 mins

Just wait till they pitch up at Desdi when there's a bit of Fog about, I remember one morning being told by UAE ( the "a team" was on) that our EAT was in 343 minutes, seem to recall the Lufty crew behind us asking for their EAT in local time...then when asked why..they said "so veee can kalkulate zeee overtime!"

[Going Boeing]

Where the hell are the fleet managers?

The fleet managers were "managing risk" which in plain speak means they do everything at minimum cost until they get caught out and then start micro-managing the operation and assign the extra fuel to be carried.

[ferris]

ex 380: Yes, there was one EK diversion into Bahrain (262).

Whilst wx is unusual, holding (traffic) is a nightly feature of DBX, and the average delay just gets longer. You cannot keep double digit growth year-upon-year without consequences.

At least the A380 can bounce straight up to a decent level for the onwards caravan.

[schlong hauler]

What a stupid post by the ill informed. no where has there been a discussion about how much fuel was uplifted. Was it full to a regulated MTOW? Did the Taf they planned on have T.S. on it? The weather can change and sometimes no matter how much information you have mother nature can play a better hand.

[waren9]

cue someone posting a taf that was available at departure.

[ferris]

From the locked thread....
Plazbot #351

To counter the thread drift, how much holding gas are Qantas turning up with? With the runway works fast approaching delays will be quite extensive. What are they planning as an alternate? Emirates seem to use OMAL for the 380. Is it the same?

Ex a380 driver

Does QF give an Alternate for Dubai for fuel planning for even if CAVOK forecast?

Direct anywhere

The QF fuel policy doesn't carry an alternate for anywhere else under those conditions so I would consider it highly unlikely there is a different policy for Dubai ops. Having said that, they should have enough fuel on arrival for OMAL and OMAA at least but that tends to be a quirk of the policy rather than deliberate planning.

ex a380 driver

Good luck then with the 40 minutes plus holding that regularly occurs here.

SOPS

Just thinking the same thing Ex A380, we held for nearly an hour last night! ( or this morning, depending on how you look at it

etc.
These posts were from the day before the diversion.
Sorry if you think my post ill-informed, schlong hauler. Seemed pretty pertinent to me.

[Transition Layer]

The fact of the matter is that QF Fuel Policy doesn't consider ATC holding fuel and WX holding fuel in isolation. It simply considers them as one and the same.

For example, say you are arriving at the destination with NOTAMed 30 mins ATC holding plus 60 mins for forecast Tempo TS, the plan will only give you the 60 mins, not 90 mins. Ridiculous I know and definitely not the fuel I'd be taking. No use arriving at a CAVOK destination and sitting in the hold for X mins due ATC traffic delays, whilst in the mean time a TS plonks itself over the airfield.

Does Dubai nominate any predicted ATC delays and associated required holding fuel at the pre-flight stage?

[haughtney1]

OMDB-A0240/13
From: 04/04/2013 00:01 UTC
To: PERM
Period: H24
STAR FUEL PLANNING
SUBJECT TO APPLICABLE REGULATIONS AND THEIR AIR OPR
CERTIFICATE, OPR MAY PLAN THE APPROPRIATE ABBREVIATED STAR AS SHOWN

IN OMDB AD 2-43B AND OMDB AD 2-44B.
DRG PEAK ARR PERIODS IT IS RECOMMENDED THAT OPR PLAN THE APPROPRIATE

FULL STAR AS SHOWN IN OMDB AD 2-43A AND OMDB AD 2-44A.
PEAK ARR PERIODS ARE:
0100-0300
0800-1000
1500-2200
THE FULL STARS ARE ALSO RECOMMENDED TO BE PLANNED DRG ANY PERIODS OF

POSS DLY.
EXAMPLES: FCST SIG WX, RWY CLOSURES, EQPT TESTING.
PROVISION SHALL BE MADE FOR LDG IN EITHER RWY DIRECTION.

Delays..what delays? Nothing to see here there are no delays..merely poor ATM from other service providers outside the region......but FWIW, the plans I see in those peak times normally have 30 minutes of gas (above statistical contingency) on a nice wx day, or up to 90 minutes on a bad wx day.

[Transition Layer]

Haughtney/exA380,

Thanks for the input, solved my curiosity! Perhaps the "synergies" from the EK/QF tie up didn't extend to Flight Dispatch!

[Plazbot]

appears I can see the future or more accurately the ever recurring past. Why OBBI? Would have thought OMMS more likely as they are on that side at BUBIN.

[ferris]

Can Muscat handle the A380? Maybe they were already full?

[waren9]

Passengers buy tickets, not chances.

thats fkn golden tb. love it.

will remember that for the next mgmnt min fuel clown i fly with.

[unseen]

Twin beech - if you are at MTOW with all regulatory requirements for extra fuel covered, but not enough for your worst case scenario, do you offload pax or cargo to carry your extra fuel?

What probability of something happening makes you want to carry fuel for it?

Always interested to hear others opinions on these questions.

[neville_nobody]

Passengers buy tickets, not chances. It behooves pilots to try and act in a way that reflects that...you know, actually getting them to their destination or hub as advertised

Well CASA could help us all out by legislating alternates for RPT aircraft......like the rest of the fricking world................

Very few, if any, international airlines would roll up at Australian airports without an alternate. Yet for some reason Australian carriers are legally allowed to plan to land with bingo.

So until we change the law no management is going to allow you more fuel in their ops manual. And so the ongoing stoush about how much fuel you carry will continue. The minimum for RPT should be an alternate with reserve if we want to get serious.