QF Ops DXB-LHR
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QF Ops DXB-LHR
With all the discussion among the ranks about how many pilots are needed between DXB and LHR, do you really think it's in anyones long term interests to stick with the current formula requiring 4 pilots into Europe for anything less than a 64 hour stay?
Even 3 pilots is more than any other carrier. Most operators, including BA, do Asia Sydney 2 crew. No other carrier out of Dubai to Europe does anything other than 2 crew ops, or can I be corrected on this?
If the cost of QF operations exceeds the costs of all other operators, then the operation will die. How long will QF keep flying onwards from Dubai to LHR in its own right?
Even more concerning, what happens if all future long haul aircraft deliveries are based and registered in a holding company offshore (could be the middle east for an example), and operated by crew from a different entity? Not without merit, as trust me, it has been discussed many times very high up.
Protect yourselves people. Think of the long term, not just the next year or two.
Even 3 pilots is more than any other carrier. Most operators, including BA, do Asia Sydney 2 crew. No other carrier out of Dubai to Europe does anything other than 2 crew ops, or can I be corrected on this?
If the cost of QF operations exceeds the costs of all other operators, then the operation will die. How long will QF keep flying onwards from Dubai to LHR in its own right?
Even more concerning, what happens if all future long haul aircraft deliveries are based and registered in a holding company offshore (could be the middle east for an example), and operated by crew from a different entity? Not without merit, as trust me, it has been discussed many times very high up.
Protect yourselves people. Think of the long term, not just the next year or two.
Of course Management 101 is a troll - however this is a good reminder of certain points.
DXB - LHR will not require 4 crew or 64 hour slips, so the first point is moot. And the second point.
The third point, however, about holding companies, will only happen if a B scale is introduced.
So if a B scale for pilots is introduced, we can be assured that those pilots will be given the best routes, the higher divisors, the new overseas bases with quick promotions, while the rest of us languish in Australia with blank lines and minimum divisors.
So the best protection, even for those with only the highest level of self interest, is to avoid a B scale at all costs.
The troll is too stupid to realise we know what is going on - think of the long term he says - yes, don't ever accept a B scale.
DXB - LHR will not require 4 crew or 64 hour slips, so the first point is moot. And the second point.
The third point, however, about holding companies, will only happen if a B scale is introduced.
So if a B scale for pilots is introduced, we can be assured that those pilots will be given the best routes, the higher divisors, the new overseas bases with quick promotions, while the rest of us languish in Australia with blank lines and minimum divisors.
So the best protection, even for those with only the highest level of self interest, is to avoid a B scale at all costs.
The troll is too stupid to realise we know what is going on - think of the long term he says - yes, don't ever accept a B scale.
Last edited by Sprite; 14th Jun 2015 at 23:29.
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Sprite, should it be 2 or 3 pilot crews then?
The big point, and if you want job security, is that to prevent a 'B' scale the 'A' scale people need to get rid of some outdated provisions. Simple. If everyone else can do it 2 crew, why can't QF?
Not give away the farm, just accept some changes that will stop the situation you describe above.
The big point, and if you want job security, is that to prevent a 'B' scale the 'A' scale people need to get rid of some outdated provisions. Simple. If everyone else can do it 2 crew, why can't QF?
Not give away the farm, just accept some changes that will stop the situation you describe above.
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Great idea Sprite. Don't ever accept a B scale 
That will certainly secure the flying futures of the junior crew. It was a great tactic in that meeting in 2003 which 800+ pilots attended that has now resulted in 68 jets crewed by non-mainline pilots.
Just because its a 'B' scale to you, doesn't mean it is to someone else.
Thats 68 jets worth of commands that mainline effohs missed out on. Is that command pay a 'B' scale compared to a rotating 767 effoh beating his head against the MEL-SYD-BNE triangle?
Thats 68 jets worth of effoh positions in mainline. Is having those future opportunities in mainline a 'B' scale?
You say you know what is going on. It must be a nice view from your feathered nest.
Don't you worry about the rest of us though. We know we'll be fine. Coz we'll all be senior one day.
That will certainly secure the flying futures of the junior crew. It was a great tactic in that meeting in 2003 which 800+ pilots attended that has now resulted in 68 jets crewed by non-mainline pilots.
Just because its a 'B' scale to you, doesn't mean it is to someone else.
Thats 68 jets worth of commands that mainline effohs missed out on. Is that command pay a 'B' scale compared to a rotating 767 effoh beating his head against the MEL-SYD-BNE triangle?
Thats 68 jets worth of effoh positions in mainline. Is having those future opportunities in mainline a 'B' scale?
You say you know what is going on. It must be a nice view from your feathered nest.
Don't you worry about the rest of us though. We know we'll be fine. Coz we'll all be senior one day.
short flights long nights
Why can't QF do DXB LHR DXB with 2 crew? It's only a 7 hour flight. Or am I missing something?
You may think that if a B scale is introduced that it will mean promotion and expansion for those currently on the A scale. It will not. It will mean exactly the same as what they are doing to the CC - minimum flying for A scale and (presumably) overseas base, consequent promotions and maximum flying for the B scalers.
I am not by any means in a feathered nest.
I am not by any means in a feathered nest.
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The flights will be crewed by the number of pilots required - that is it!
The only reason QF currently run more than 2 crew from SYD-SIN is that the S/Os need to get to SIN for the Europe sector anyway so they operate instead of passenger. If the tools in power wish to change things they should do it in accordance with the fatigue study done a few years ago rather than the dangerous practices of a few other airlines.
The only reason QF currently run more than 2 crew from SYD-SIN is that the S/Os need to get to SIN for the Europe sector anyway so they operate instead of passenger. If the tools in power wish to change things they should do it in accordance with the fatigue study done a few years ago rather than the dangerous practices of a few other airlines.
short flights long nights
Capt Fathom, I was only referring to the DXB LHR DXB sector. I realise the sector from SYD to DXB would require heavy crew.
It may be worth pondering exactly where, in which time zone, those other airlines which do 2 pilot Gulf-UK are based. After Oz-Gulf, 24 hour slip this sector might well be very tough and, in fact, not be legitimate under FRMS with 2 pilots.
We long haulers in QF aren't idiots you know, we (almost) all realise that there must be changes to survive but beware of throwing the baby out with the bath water.
We long haulers in QF aren't idiots you know, we (almost) all realise that there must be changes to survive but beware of throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Last edited by mustafagander; 28th Jan 2013 at 08:17.
I reckon it will be a pretty decent sector actually. In body clock terms for the QF1 it will be about a 7am (based on EST) report for an 8.05 am departure. Probably a 5.30ish am wake-up. Could be a lot worse.
Arrives in London about 4pm body clock.
The southbound sector ex LHR would be much worse for mine - even with a couple of days off. Anyway, the odds are that EK will be doing it soon anyway.
Arrives in London about 4pm body clock.
The southbound sector ex LHR would be much worse for mine - even with a couple of days off. Anyway, the odds are that EK will be doing it soon anyway.
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Two Questions
Question 1: Why did B scale enter the conversation?
I thought the FWC specifically rejected that as an option.
Question 2: Why do we still have pilots who believe that rostering practices that "are JAA, FAA and not to mention CASA approved" have any real significance in fatigue risk management?
Until quite recently, the FAA has been completely missing in action on managing fatigue and EASA has totally ignored its own scientific advice as well as the advice of the UKCAA. As for CASA, the last time they paid attention to this area was in the late 90s and they have had their heads in the sand ever since. Not one of those agencies can lay claim to "best practice" in fatigue risk management.
Mere compliance will never guarantee safety.
Stay Alive,
I thought the FWC specifically rejected that as an option.
Question 2: Why do we still have pilots who believe that rostering practices that "are JAA, FAA and not to mention CASA approved" have any real significance in fatigue risk management?
Until quite recently, the FAA has been completely missing in action on managing fatigue and EASA has totally ignored its own scientific advice as well as the advice of the UKCAA. As for CASA, the last time they paid attention to this area was in the late 90s and they have had their heads in the sand ever since. Not one of those agencies can lay claim to "best practice" in fatigue risk management.
Mere compliance will never guarantee safety.
Stay Alive,
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QF Ops DXB-LHR
4dogs,
With regard to your B scale question, the FWC merely decided that the B scale discussion was too great for them to make a determination, being such a massive overhaul, and considered that QF will likely not be hiring any new LH pilots for the duration of the binding arbitration (which carries through to Jan 2014).
It's basically been left to be renegotiated in the next EBA.
BB
With regard to your B scale question, the FWC merely decided that the B scale discussion was too great for them to make a determination, being such a massive overhaul, and considered that QF will likely not be hiring any new LH pilots for the duration of the binding arbitration (which carries through to Jan 2014).
It's basically been left to be renegotiated in the next EBA.
BB
SOPS,
You can't just refer to Dubai-London-Dubai in isolation. The crew are flying Sydney to London return via Dubai.
Yes it is only 7hrs to London from Dubai. But that crew has flown 14 hrs from Australia to Dubai, plus a 6/7 hr time change!
An interesting Fatigue Management scenario.
You can't just refer to Dubai-London-Dubai in isolation. The crew are flying Sydney to London return via Dubai.
Yes it is only 7hrs to London from Dubai. But that crew has flown 14 hrs from Australia to Dubai, plus a 6/7 hr time change!
An interesting Fatigue Management scenario.
short flights long nights
Point taken
Nunc est bibendum
I'm not sure they would.... unless we're going to cling to the prospect that DXB constitutes an 'asian slip'? Is there other clauses that need re-writing.
What's interesting is how the FRMS plays out. It's perhaps a slightly different proposition to what EK crew do now in terms of doing a LHR return, 48 hours off and then a SYD return. Time will tell.
What's interesting is how the FRMS plays out. It's perhaps a slightly different proposition to what EK crew do now in terms of doing a LHR return, 48 hours off and then a SYD return. Time will tell.