Qantas AIPA FWA Ruling Thurs 17th Jan
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Prior to 5.30 daily credit many MEL returns were just 2 sectors for 3.03 hours pay from memory. 5.30 forced QF to be more efficient ie. 1 crew doing 4 sectors instead of 2 crew flying 2 sectors. if QF were given a free reign with how to crew they would still do it inefficiently, the IT and managers etc. responsible are hopeless. Getting 5.30 per day was a win win for both parties despite what management say. I agree that credited hours need to become more aligned with stick hours but a minimum daily credit at least would prevent going back to the bad old days.
Last edited by Nunc; 22nd Jan 2013 at 23:09.
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The company needs some flexibility 5.30 minimum pay is not one of them.
You tell me any other group of airline employees in the world that have a contract that says they can be potentially rostered two man crew, every day of being at work, to a max of 11 hours duty and 8 hours of stick for only 5:30min pay per day?
The companies inability to run an efficient business is what makes the pilot body look expensive and inefficient.
If the short haul award (i.e. stick hours) is the answer why is the company gearing up another subsidiary to replace it?
It's averaged over the trip length
Nunc est bibendum
The 'premium' on the 767 (what pilots are paid compared to their flying hours) is at historical lows- less than 20%. The current 737 pay rate is greater than 20% more than a 767 pilot. That said, once once FWA finishes their determination and will be closer to 10%.
Either way, the 'issues' that are within the LH award aren't to do with 5:30 and it's impact on the 767 domestic flying, that's for sure. I have my thoughts on where they exist but we've done that to death previously.
Either way, the 'issues' that are within the LH award aren't to do with 5:30 and it's impact on the 767 domestic flying, that's for sure. I have my thoughts on where they exist but we've done that to death previously.
Last edited by Keg; 23rd Jan 2013 at 00:11.
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Yes it is.
On a multi day trip you always get paid for at least the stick hours, and sometimes you get paid more than the stick hours.
It works for you as it increases your density which is great.
It doesn't mean that is efficient or lowest cost for the company even if they could plan so that there are no trips paid on MDC.
It is an artificial constraint on trip construction. If MDC produced lower cost patterns, then it would happen naturally through the pattern build process, without the award entitlement, therefore you would have to think that MDC may increase costs.
It was bargained for and agreed to by both sides at the time and one that has worked well for the pilots to increase density. It has probably worked well for the company in some regard as it gives pilots better density which in general makes them happier (relatively speaking...).
I hope it stays as long as it works for both sides and does not excessively
Increase costs compared to the benefits it provides to you guys and girls.
On a multi day trip you always get paid for at least the stick hours, and sometimes you get paid more than the stick hours.
It works for you as it increases your density which is great.
It doesn't mean that is efficient or lowest cost for the company even if they could plan so that there are no trips paid on MDC.
It is an artificial constraint on trip construction. If MDC produced lower cost patterns, then it would happen naturally through the pattern build process, without the award entitlement, therefore you would have to think that MDC may increase costs.
It was bargained for and agreed to by both sides at the time and one that has worked well for the pilots to increase density. It has probably worked well for the company in some regard as it gives pilots better density which in general makes them happier (relatively speaking...).
I hope it stays as long as it works for both sides and does not excessively
Increase costs compared to the benefits it provides to you guys and girls.
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I think you'll find that the assertion that other airlines do not get a MDC is also false. Sure, the LCCs would likely not, but they try to schedule denisty anyway if they are smart.
It is not the fault of the long haul pilot that the company insists on serving many cities infrequently enough to dilute the average daily flying. Schedule inefficiencies can only be fixed by attaching a penalty for failure. On the domestic network it has mostly worked.
Also, and note this well, the cabin crew have enjoyed MDC for decades in both fleets. Yet S/H CSMs were being rostered for single sector flying on weekends recently just to satisfy some poorly conceived KPM. No one has ever entered into a discussion with the FAAA about min daily credits.
It is not the fault of the long haul pilot that the company insists on serving many cities infrequently enough to dilute the average daily flying. Schedule inefficiencies can only be fixed by attaching a penalty for failure. On the domestic network it has mostly worked.
Also, and note this well, the cabin crew have enjoyed MDC for decades in both fleets. Yet S/H CSMs were being rostered for single sector flying on weekends recently just to satisfy some poorly conceived KPM. No one has ever entered into a discussion with the FAAA about min daily credits.
Nunc est bibendum
As a note, I still remember when 5:10 came in. I suddenly started getting an extra day off per bid period however there was zero change to my stick hours. They just managed to shoehorn more flying into each day I was at work.
The same is occurring now. 5:30 isn't a problem.
The same is occurring now. 5:30 isn't a problem.
Yes i agree but if the longhaul pilot does a 4 hour duty SYD-CBR return do they get stick hours or 5.30 credit? There in itself is the problem. They should get 1.50 credit as every other airline does. No point going on about a 10.30 duty for 5.30 credit, that is an extreme example , if you factor in the higher hourly rate you actually make more in shorthaul compared to the 767. The company needs some flexibility 5.30 minimum pay is not one of them.
As others have already mentioned, 9-10 hour duties on the 767 are the rule, not the exception. I fly a lot more days in excess of 5:30 duty than days less than that (almost none). You should really get the facts before going into print. As for your comment about pilots deserving 1:50 for SYD-CBR return because every other airline does, all I can say is
Last edited by Conductor; 23rd Jan 2013 at 08:40.
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I don't think the original post pertaining to duty, MDC or stick was concerned with what is essentially domestic short haul, even though it's contained within the long haul agreement and flown in a 767. More relevant is your alliance partners conditions (EK). The management of all Australian airlines believe they can no longer compete on international long haul.
EK may actually fly less but I believe that their current credit target is 92 hours stick. They factor long haul duty by 1.4 where crew is augmented in a four man crew. 1.3 for three man. That is if you flew 140 hours long haul, fully augmented, you would achieve 100 hours. There are no allowances for night flying.
EK may actually fly less but I believe that their current credit target is 92 hours stick. They factor long haul duty by 1.4 where crew is augmented in a four man crew. 1.3 for three man. That is if you flew 140 hours long haul, fully augmented, you would achieve 100 hours. There are no allowances for night flying.
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EK may actually fly less but I believe that their current credit target is 92 hours stick. They factor long haul duty by 1.4 where crew is augmented in a four man crew. 1.3 for three man. That is if you flew 140 hours long haul, fully augmented, you would achieve 100 hours. There are no allowances for night flying.
Just had an idea! Maybe if you suggest that to QF management first they will give you a bonus!!
Qantas’ business not yet back on track - Aviation News - etravelblackboard.com
WTF! The four hundred and fifty eight pillar strategy is not stable?
So Alan wasn't actually prepared for a pay rise related to an eba that has been expired for more than two years?
Standing by for Olivia's take on the "problem".
The full speech......
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/...O%20SPEECH.pdf
Qantas also has a one-off operating cost of AU$25 million associated with resolving enterprise agreement back pay issues with their long haul pilots.
So Alan wasn't actually prepared for a pay rise related to an eba that has been expired for more than two years?
Standing by for Olivia's take on the "problem".
The full speech......
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/...O%20SPEECH.pdf
Last edited by hotnhigh; 3rd May 2013 at 02:28.
I'm sure that mentioning the $25 million for pilots back-pay is just another way at taking a back-handed swipe at "those greedy mainline pilots".
My engagement levels just keeps getting higher and higher.
Wonder how much the company has paid the trough-feeders in bonuses over the last three years!
My engagement levels just keeps getting higher and higher.
Wonder how much the company has paid the trough-feeders in bonuses over the last three years!
Last edited by Shark Patrol; 3rd May 2013 at 23:39.
