Virgin Australia 737-800 lost by air traffic control for 30 minutes
Sarcs that seems reasonable for the style of reporting and I will acknowledge that BS puts a lot more relevant aviation news than mainstream. The comment about including A380 and 777 also explains why he would include them in the original article. The bit about TCAS you posted is also a lot more factual than emotional. I agree entirely with him that for Airservices to say "well there's always TCAS" suggests their management, like a lot of senior aviation managment, do not have the first idea what their job entails and who their responsibilities are to.
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Whoop de doop about the language in the report, more of concern is what actually happened. Many at would remember the Ansett 737 that went stealth from south of Brisbane down towards Melbourne. The aircraft switched its transponder off. Some of those ATCs are no longer with us. This is the opposite with the switch off on the ATC side and the original method of dealing with it was to counsel the controller at the console and let him/her keep on going? Seriously? Not the first time either. I recall a turbo prop in the teens of thousands turning up at top of descent into Tamworth having flown from 30 Sydney no talking to anyone or couple on any screens. That chap is no longer talking to planes either. I am not asking for the ATC's job here but am mouth agape at the type of manager/management that decided it was no big deal.
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Wouldn't that little black track be moving fairly swiftly in relation to other tracks?
Wouldn't there be a curiosity factor as to what inhibited track was doing probably about 500 knots?
Wouldn't there be a curiosity factor as to what inhibited track was doing probably about 500 knots?
Its not the news, its an opinion blog.
He always seems to take one side of a story and sensationalise it with a real axe-to-grind negativity: Embarrassing when he is arguing for your case, and frustrating when he is arguing against it.
That said, its the closest thing to an aviation news source we've got here in Australia.
He always seems to take one side of a story and sensationalise it with a real axe-to-grind negativity: Embarrassing when he is arguing for your case, and frustrating when he is arguing against it.
That said, its the closest thing to an aviation news source we've got here in Australia.
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Déjŕ vu
Senate Estimates 23/5/12.
Pages 38 – 42 (PDF) - Air Services Australia: Simply serves to confirm all fears that despite the rhetoric, a clerical empire has been built and will be 'sacked' as needed to produce 'efficiencies' when required; simply unload a thousand or so 'clerks' and shine. Yes Minister, we can shed 400 jobs next year and still maintain our efficiency. Refer Clark page 41 (PDF).
Agree Ben has to earn a crust in a difficult, competitive cyber world and he is the best/ only one we have for news.
Pages 38 – 42 (PDF) - Air Services Australia: Simply serves to confirm all fears that despite the rhetoric, a clerical empire has been built and will be 'sacked' as needed to produce 'efficiencies' when required; simply unload a thousand or so 'clerks' and shine. Yes Minister, we can shed 400 jobs next year and still maintain our efficiency. Refer Clark page 41 (PDF).
MQ321 # 25 - I am not asking for the ATC's job here but am mouth agape at the type of manager/management that decided it was no big deal.
RS # 28 - One wonders if there were enough staff to remove the controller from the console after the incident?
Last edited by Kharon; 6th Oct 2012 at 21:00.
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Selective Inspector Test
Nice video, try watching the one titled ' CASA Inspector In The Room' or 'Elephant In The Room'!!
Safety last.
Safety last.
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Give the man a cigar
and Roger Standby said:
the alternatives (trivialising the event, protecting a mate, avoid notice of a failure to supervise, protecting the good name of As...no, I can't bring myself to contemplate that!) don't bear thinking about!
One wonders if there were enough staff to remove the controller from the console after the incident?
the alternatives (trivialising the event, protecting a mate, avoid notice of a failure to supervise, protecting the good name of As...no, I can't bring myself to contemplate that!) don't bear thinking about!
Ben Sandilands- Plane Talking update.
A screen grab of an amended incident notification in Australia’s air traffic control system shows that it lied about losing a Virgin Australia flight between two capital cities.
Airservices 'lost Virgin jet' screen grab unmasks its lies | Plane Talking
A screen grab of an amended incident notification in Australia’s air traffic control system shows that it lied about losing a Virgin Australia flight between two capital cities.
Airservices 'lost Virgin jet' screen grab unmasks its lies | Plane Talking
ASA Acting CEO vs Planetalking!
Andy vs Ben: Who won? You be the judge...
Top shot Ben KTBH, although save a few of those grenades for Fort Fumble!
Airservices Media
Posted October 12, 2012 at 1:14 pm | Permalink
The article by Ben Sandilands ‘Airservices ‘lost Virgin jet’ screen grab unmasks its lie’ is simply wrong.
Any suggestion that there is a ‘cover up’ by Airservices is completely false.
The incident that occurred on 28 September was immediately reported in our incident reporting system by line management. A review of the incident by our internal safety management team commenced that day, which is a normal part of our processes. The classification was updated on 2 October with the incident reported to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA).
The ATSB opened their investigation on 4 October. Mr Sandilands posted his initial blog following the ATSB’s public notification of their investigation.
The aircraft was never ‘lost’ to Airservices air traffic controllers. It continued to be displayed on all air traffic control displays managing the airspace and was not in the vicinity of any other aircraft.
Airservices first priority will always be the safety of the travelling public.
Australia’s enviable aviation safety record is dependent on transparent safety reporting through a ‘Just Culture’ policy which encourages staff to openly and honestly report information without concern that it will be used to their detriment.
Sensationalist and inaccurate reporting prior to an independent investigation occurring threatens our strong reporting culture.
Andrew Clark
A/Chief Executive Officer
Ben Sandilands
Posted October 12, 2012 at 1:23 pm | Permalink
Andrew,
You seem incapable of reading your own incident notification, which on amendment said that Airservices was unaware of the situation until the aircraft alerted the system to its approach to Brisbane.
You also seem incapable of understanding the words that “appropriate assessment of known traffic for potential conflicts … did not occur.”
The facts are that your organisation cannot be trusted to safely separate aircraft, and cannot be trusted to tell the truth.
Posted October 12, 2012 at 1:14 pm | Permalink
The article by Ben Sandilands ‘Airservices ‘lost Virgin jet’ screen grab unmasks its lie’ is simply wrong.
Any suggestion that there is a ‘cover up’ by Airservices is completely false.
The incident that occurred on 28 September was immediately reported in our incident reporting system by line management. A review of the incident by our internal safety management team commenced that day, which is a normal part of our processes. The classification was updated on 2 October with the incident reported to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA).
The ATSB opened their investigation on 4 October. Mr Sandilands posted his initial blog following the ATSB’s public notification of their investigation.
The aircraft was never ‘lost’ to Airservices air traffic controllers. It continued to be displayed on all air traffic control displays managing the airspace and was not in the vicinity of any other aircraft.
Airservices first priority will always be the safety of the travelling public.
Australia’s enviable aviation safety record is dependent on transparent safety reporting through a ‘Just Culture’ policy which encourages staff to openly and honestly report information without concern that it will be used to their detriment.
Sensationalist and inaccurate reporting prior to an independent investigation occurring threatens our strong reporting culture.
Andrew Clark
A/Chief Executive Officer
Ben Sandilands
Posted October 12, 2012 at 1:23 pm | Permalink
Andrew,
You seem incapable of reading your own incident notification, which on amendment said that Airservices was unaware of the situation until the aircraft alerted the system to its approach to Brisbane.
You also seem incapable of understanding the words that “appropriate assessment of known traffic for potential conflicts … did not occur.”
The facts are that your organisation cannot be trusted to safely separate aircraft, and cannot be trusted to tell the truth.
Last edited by Sarcs; 12th Oct 2012 at 03:36.
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So a Mach 0.8 blip bleeps its way down the East Coast but nobody notices?
What if it had been a despotic cruise missile or drone on its way to Brisbane, Sydney or heaven forbid, Canberra?
Does the ADF have any separate monitoring of the airspace and are there any links with Airservices information systems?
What if it had been a despotic cruise missile or drone on its way to Brisbane, Sydney or heaven forbid, Canberra?
Does the ADF have any separate monitoring of the airspace and are there any links with Airservices information systems?
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What if it had been a despotic cruise missile or drone on its way to Brisbane, Sydney or heaven forbid, Canberra?
Andy vs quick wins!
quick wins sums up the Clark response to Ben's blog quite nicely I would say. Plus he/she seems to know what they're talking about!
quick wins
Posted October 12, 2012 at 5:04 pm | Permalink
“The article by Ben Sandilands ‘Airservices ‘lost Virgin jet’ screen grab unmasks its lie’ is simply wrong.”
Not the entire article Mr Clark – to what specifically do you refer?
“Any suggestion that there is a ‘cover up’ by Airservices is completely false.”
What do you call attempting to under report the event Mr Clark? Covering up? Or something else?
“The incident that occurred on 28 September was immediately reported in our incident reporting system by line management.”
The report was issued in it’s original form, despite apparent protestations from controllers who witnessed it. It is reported that those who insisted on proper reporting have subsequently been ‘counselled’ – so much for your Just Culture you later speak of.
Why do you think Senator Xenophon has been asking for clarification of the workings of Just Culture in Senate Estimates?
Your staff simply don’t trust they will be treated fairly. It is probably the same reason your line manager did not choose to correctly report the higher incident level in the first place. Where does the intimidation start Mr Clark? And where do think it will end?
“The aircraft was never ‘lost’ to Airservices air traffic controllers. It continued to be displayed on all air traffic control displays managing the airspace and was not in the vicinity of any other aircraft.” – Mr Clark, you are an accountant. You are not an Air Traffic Controller. You do not have ATC operational knowledge to make that claim. Whoever told you to say that needs to be held to account – but we will presume they are a PR specialist, not an ATC specialist. The fact that this aircraft did not come in to conflict with another was pure luck. We are running out of pure luck Mr Clark.
“Airservices first priority will always be the safety of the travelling public.” – How very reassuring.
“Australia’s enviable aviation safety record is dependent on transparent safety reporting through a ‘Just Culture’ policy which encourages staff to openly and honestly report information without concern that it will be used to their detriment.”
Yes it should be, but the punitive actions within the ATC group against individuals who repeatedly point out the crumbling under resources system are there for all to see. Everyone knows they are an overt warning to shut up or face the consequences. Such is the Just Culture you boast of Mr Clark.
Posted October 12, 2012 at 5:04 pm | Permalink
“The article by Ben Sandilands ‘Airservices ‘lost Virgin jet’ screen grab unmasks its lie’ is simply wrong.”
Not the entire article Mr Clark – to what specifically do you refer?
“Any suggestion that there is a ‘cover up’ by Airservices is completely false.”
What do you call attempting to under report the event Mr Clark? Covering up? Or something else?
“The incident that occurred on 28 September was immediately reported in our incident reporting system by line management.”
The report was issued in it’s original form, despite apparent protestations from controllers who witnessed it. It is reported that those who insisted on proper reporting have subsequently been ‘counselled’ – so much for your Just Culture you later speak of.
Why do you think Senator Xenophon has been asking for clarification of the workings of Just Culture in Senate Estimates?
Your staff simply don’t trust they will be treated fairly. It is probably the same reason your line manager did not choose to correctly report the higher incident level in the first place. Where does the intimidation start Mr Clark? And where do think it will end?
“The aircraft was never ‘lost’ to Airservices air traffic controllers. It continued to be displayed on all air traffic control displays managing the airspace and was not in the vicinity of any other aircraft.” – Mr Clark, you are an accountant. You are not an Air Traffic Controller. You do not have ATC operational knowledge to make that claim. Whoever told you to say that needs to be held to account – but we will presume they are a PR specialist, not an ATC specialist. The fact that this aircraft did not come in to conflict with another was pure luck. We are running out of pure luck Mr Clark.
“Airservices first priority will always be the safety of the travelling public.” – How very reassuring.
“Australia’s enviable aviation safety record is dependent on transparent safety reporting through a ‘Just Culture’ policy which encourages staff to openly and honestly report information without concern that it will be used to their detriment.”
Yes it should be, but the punitive actions within the ATC group against individuals who repeatedly point out the crumbling under resources system are there for all to see. Everyone knows they are an overt warning to shut up or face the consequences. Such is the Just Culture you boast of Mr Clark.
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To be fair, and it has been pointed out, Mr Clark is not an ATC. It is probable that this is the advice he has been given. AsA has some major cultural issues and a strong statement has been made by the selection of the new CEO. I just hope she can challenge some of the ingrained attitudes of the senior managers. Good luck Maam, trust no-one.
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The aircraft was never ‘lost’ to Airservices air traffic controllers. It continued to be displayed on all air traffic control displays managing the airspace and was not in the vicinity of any other aircraft.
And for christsake: 'it was not in the vicinity of any other aircraft' that makes it alright does it? It's typical of the bull**** political culture that has developed in 'hate castle'
And: 'it continued to be displayed on all air traffic control displays' mmmm, everything's ok then?
To be fair, and it has been pointed out, Mr Clark is not an ATC.
Last edited by Jack Ranga; 13th Oct 2012 at 04:09.
It's typical of the bull**** political culture that has developed in 'hate castle'
Rural & Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE
Budget Estimates May 2012
Infrastructure and Transport
Question no.: 74
Program: n/a
Division/Agency: (AA) Airservices Australia
Topic: Alan Woods Building Refurbishment
Proof Hansard Page/s: 38 (23/05/12)
Senator XENOPHON asked:
Senator XENOPHON: I will roll it into one. I am happy for this to be taken on notice. As I understand it, the St Hilliers construction arm went into voluntary administration recently, but ASIC searches could have indicated problems with that contractor for some time. Did you conduct due diligence of the liquidity of St Hilliers at the time you signed up with them?
Mr Clark: It is certainly normal practice for us to conduct due diligence on any tenderer that we are dealing with. In relation to St Hilliers, Senator, I will certainly have to take that on notice.
Answer:
Airservices completed a financial and legal risk assessment of St Hilliers which determined that the risks were tolerable and as good or better than the other tenders for the Alan Woods Building project.
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE
Budget Estimates May 2012
Infrastructure and Transport
Question no.: 74
Program: n/a
Division/Agency: (AA) Airservices Australia
Topic: Alan Woods Building Refurbishment
Proof Hansard Page/s: 38 (23/05/12)
Senator XENOPHON asked:
Senator XENOPHON: I will roll it into one. I am happy for this to be taken on notice. As I understand it, the St Hilliers construction arm went into voluntary administration recently, but ASIC searches could have indicated problems with that contractor for some time. Did you conduct due diligence of the liquidity of St Hilliers at the time you signed up with them?
Mr Clark: It is certainly normal practice for us to conduct due diligence on any tenderer that we are dealing with. In relation to St Hilliers, Senator, I will certainly have to take that on notice.
Answer:
Airservices completed a financial and legal risk assessment of St Hilliers which determined that the risks were tolerable and as good or better than the other tenders for the Alan Woods Building project.
Although the 'BC' A/CEO is not adverse to thumbing his nose at Senator X:
Rural & Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE
Budget Estimates May 2012
Infrastructure and Transport
Question no.: 71
Program: n/a
Division/Agency: (AA) Airservices Australia
Topic: CEO Spouse Travel
Proof Hansard Page/s: 36 (23/05/12)
Senator XENOPHON asked:
Senator XENOPHON: On notice, can you please provide details of how much Mr Russell's spouse cost taxpayers?
Mr Clark: Yes. Of course.
Answer:
Airservices Australia receives no Government appropriation.
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE
Budget Estimates May 2012
Infrastructure and Transport
Question no.: 71
Program: n/a
Division/Agency: (AA) Airservices Australia
Topic: CEO Spouse Travel
Proof Hansard Page/s: 36 (23/05/12)
Senator XENOPHON asked:
Senator XENOPHON: On notice, can you please provide details of how much Mr Russell's spouse cost taxpayers?
Mr Clark: Yes. Of course.
Answer:
Airservices Australia receives no Government appropriation.
Rural & Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE
Budget Estimates May 2012
Infrastructure and Transport
Question no.: 72
Program: n/a
Division/Agency: (AA) Airservices Australia
Topic: Staff Numbers
Proof Hansard Page/s: 37 (23/05/12)
Senator XENOPHON asked:
Senator XENOPHON: In 2010-11, the figures I have are that the expenditure is $772.6 million, with staff numbers of 3,886, an increase of 29.7 per cent and 890 extra staff members. Of that 29 per cent increase, what increase was there in air traffic controllers in that time?
Mr Clark: The number of air traffic controllers has increased slightly over that period of time. I can certainly provide more detail on notice.
Senator XENOPHON: Not by 29 per cent, though.
Mr Clark: No. Not by 29 per cent.
Senator XENOPHON: I suggest to you maybe only two or three per cent?
Mr Clark: Well, I would certainly have to take that on notice in terms of the sheer number.
But the increase in staff within Airservices Australia has been predominantly around new functions, such as the environment function. Airservices Australia is also now delivering some $200 million worth of capex around Australia both regionally and within capital cities.
That has caused us to increase quite significantly the number of project staff. We have also commenced a range of new services, both aviation risk and firefighting and air traffic control, in at least three locations in recent times.
Answer:
The number of air traffic controllers including trainees increased from 2006-07 to 2010-11 by 9.5%.
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE
Budget Estimates May 2012
Infrastructure and Transport
Question no.: 72
Program: n/a
Division/Agency: (AA) Airservices Australia
Topic: Staff Numbers
Proof Hansard Page/s: 37 (23/05/12)
Senator XENOPHON asked:
Senator XENOPHON: In 2010-11, the figures I have are that the expenditure is $772.6 million, with staff numbers of 3,886, an increase of 29.7 per cent and 890 extra staff members. Of that 29 per cent increase, what increase was there in air traffic controllers in that time?
Mr Clark: The number of air traffic controllers has increased slightly over that period of time. I can certainly provide more detail on notice.
Senator XENOPHON: Not by 29 per cent, though.
Mr Clark: No. Not by 29 per cent.
Senator XENOPHON: I suggest to you maybe only two or three per cent?
Mr Clark: Well, I would certainly have to take that on notice in terms of the sheer number.
But the increase in staff within Airservices Australia has been predominantly around new functions, such as the environment function. Airservices Australia is also now delivering some $200 million worth of capex around Australia both regionally and within capital cities.
That has caused us to increase quite significantly the number of project staff. We have also commenced a range of new services, both aviation risk and firefighting and air traffic control, in at least three locations in recent times.
Answer:
The number of air traffic controllers including trainees increased from 2006-07 to 2010-11 by 9.5%.
ps JR your posts sound oh so similar to 'quick wins', or is it just that there are several like-minded people chucking rocks on the roof of 'Hate Castle'?
