JHAS Keeps 457's over Local workers in new Redundancy round

[NuckingFuts]

It's a pretty sad state of affairs when you hear of this sort of thing happening to local workers.

So much for working for an Australian Company like JHAS. (John Holland)

JHAS has made a commitment to keep it's temporary Visa (457) staff and make local workers redundant.

How is that even possible?

Surely there are laws to protect Australian Citizens from being exploited by companies like this. It's not like we are in a corrupt third world country or anything!

With all the workers from Qantas being out of job surely these people should not be allowed to stay. But to axe local workers and retain these temporary workers is an outrage!

[Keg]

I think they have to? I think having 'sponsored' the people concerned under the 457s, they can't just drop them like a hot potato if they still have employment for them.

Ludicrous I know but they are responsible for those people during the term of the visa and thus they're more likely to let locals go whilst they still have that responsibility.

[Romulus]

Thank Julia's Fair Work Act.

"In Webster v Mercury Colleges Pty Ltd, Fair Work Australia held that
termination of a sponsored teacher was unfair because of the serious financial
consequences to the teacher and the social dislocation that was inevitable as a
result his summary dismissal."

457 Visa Legal Position

One would suggest that applies to all 457 visa holders who only have 28 days to get another sponsor or leave the country. In several instances 457 visa holders now have greater protection than local employees.

[Stalins ugly Brother]

"In Webster v Mercury Colleges Pty Ltd, Fair Work Australia held that
termination of a sponsored teacher was unfair because of the serious financial
consequences to the teacher and the social dislocation that was inevitable as a
result his summary dismissal."

Webster v Mercury Colleges Pty Ltd was a case of wrongful dismissal for gross misconduct.

Whilst the above quote is true the ruling by FWA was not purely based on the issue of the visa, it was also ruled on with consideration of the employer not following due process and the employee not given procedural fairness in the dismissal. The outcome was too harsh. Basically the punishment outweighed the crime in such that the punishment would have resulted in the employee, due to the terms of his visa, being required to return to his homeland and would have caused "harsh" financial consequences far beyond that of a citizen of Australia.

On the flip side this case also puts a more onerous burden on an employer. Employers maybe more prone to hire a local worker than a V 457ener in the future as it potentially could be harder to dismiss the fly ins in the case of any misconduct.

In regard to preferential treatment given to 457eners, my opinion is an employer cannot discriminate when determining a reduction in staff in a work force. An employer on a 457 visa will be subject to the same conditions of employment and the same due process as a local employee subject to the conditions of their contract/award.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by S.U.B.

Originally Posted by Rom

"In Webster v Mercury Colleges Pty Ltd, Fair Work Australia held that
termination of a sponsored teacher was unfair because of the serious financial
consequences to the teacher and the social dislocation that was inevitable as a result his summary dismissal."

Webster v Mercury Colleges Pty Ltd was a case of wrongful dismissal for gross misconduct.

Whilst the above quote is true the ruling by FWA was not purely based on the issue of the visa, it was also ruled on with consideration of the employer not following due process and the employee not given procedural fairness in the dismissal. The outcome was too harsh. Basically the punishment outweighed the crime in such that the punishment would have resulted in the employee, due to the terms of his visa, being required to return to his homeland and would have caused "harsh" financial consequences far beyond that of a citizen of Australia.

On the flip side this case also puts a more onerous burden on an employer. Employers maybe more prone to hire a local worker than a V 457ener in the future as it potentially could be harder to dismiss the fly ins in the case of any misconduct.

In regard to preferential treatment given to 457eners, my opinion is an employer cannot discriminate when determining a reduction in staff in a work force. An employer on a 457 visa will be subject to the same conditions of employment and the same due process as a local employee subject to the conditions of their contract/award.

Correct on all counts.

The 457 harshness test now includes the consequences of visa loss, something that simply isn't an issue with local employees. And that's the crux of it, common sense dictates you never pick a fight that's harder than you need to, so unless emotion gets in there somewhere the usual targets of Anglo Saxon males (ASM) as the obvious course of action remain.

We can all say how unfair it is and that the same group gets advantages elsewhere but until there is a counter to the current orthodoxy businesses know they can't fire women or minorities as easily as they can the ASM.

It should also mean that in good times more ASMs get hired, but that's a practice that comes under a lot more scrutiny for discrimination.

[NuckingFuts]

My God!
Who are you Romulus?
What HR rock did you climb out from under?
Would you prefer if we went back to slavery as well?

You obviously had something to do with JHAS. Can we thank you for helping it get to its current glory (not)? The bottom feeders of aviation.
Your ideology has certainly worked wonders there.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by NF

My God!
Who are you Romulus?

What HR rock did you climb out from under?

Would you prefer if we went back to slavery as well?

If you read that in my post then you need to reread it until you understand what I wrote.

The analysis is very simple, why on earth would you pick a fight with an opponent who has the ability to line up Govt institutions that are exceptionally well funded against you?

In short, if you have any kind of common sense, you wouldn't.

Hence the ASM cops the sh*tty end of the stick when it comes time for layoffs.

That was my point.

And it's largely the same the world over.

Not saying it's right, just that it is the way it is.

Originally Posted by NF

You obviously had something to do with JHAS. Can we thank you for helping it get to its current glory (not)? The bottom feeders of aviation.
Your ideology has certainly worked wonders there.

JHAS is alive and employing people, would you prefer it closed?

I haven't been there for at least 5 years so I can't comment on what they're doing with anything but an outsider's view.

As for being bottom feeders - that's pretty unfair. But then, typing mindless criticism whilst behind a keyboard is pretty easy isn't it NF?

Who do you work for? What are you afraid of?

Methinks you have some inner self loathing bubbling away.

[tail wheel]

• Foreign skilled workers on 457 Visas may access to the same industrial relations laws as Australian workers. Foreign skilled workers on 457 Visas do not have any industrial relations advantage over Australian workers.
  
  
• Foreign skilled workers on 457 Visas must be paid the same wages as comparable Australian workers. Foreign skilled workers on 457 Visas potentially cost an employer more than a comparable Australian worker, due to liabilities in the sponsoring agreement.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by tailwheel

Foreign skilled workers on 457 Visas may access to the same industrial relations laws as Australian workers. Foreign skilled workers on 457 Visas do not have any industrial relations advantage over Australian workers.

Foreign skilled workers on 457 Visas must be paid the same wages as comparable Australian workers. Foreign skilled workers on 457 Visas potentially cost an employer more than a comparable Australian worker, due to liabilities in the sponsoring agreement.

Those are the words, the reality is a bit different (refer previous quotes).

Same as female employees, the words say equal treatment, the reality is often different (in both directions).

[Jethro Gibbs]

And there are still mobs like ALG trying to bring in 457 visa holders this is just madness given current conditions in Australia.

[tail wheel]

Romulus. Employers of overseas workers are subject to randon audit by DIAC. If you are aware of instances where overseas workers are not being paid an industry standard wage, I suggest you contact DIAC HERE.

[mightyauster]

The problem Tailwheel, from a LAME's point of view, is Juliar's "modern" Aviation Award allows a minimum rate of pay which is far, far below what the airlines are actually paying, as they have realised some time ago that no one would work for them. Unfortunately, this is where the bottom feeders like AMSA, IASA and JHAS come in.
It is not only pay rates that are a concern. Since CASA have foisted the Part 66 system upon us, with the lie that the existing Mechanical LAMEs won't be affected, the reality is a foriegn full B1 rated LAME is much more economically useful than a legacy CASA LAME, especially if said companies don't want to pay for training.
I'm sorry, but the whole system is a complete and utter shambles.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by tail wheel

Romulus. Employers of overseas workers are subject to randon audit by DIAC. If you are aware of instances where overseas workers are not being paid an industry standard wage, I suggest you contact DIAC HERE.

TW, I suggest no such thing and there was certainly none of that when I was there. JH employs a lot of 457 visa holders throughout their business, there is an entire support unit at Corporate level there to assist Regional Businesses (as the various state groups are called) as well as the various specialist businesses inc JHAS. 457 visas are critical to JH operations so there is a commensurate level of focus. Bear in mind that if you get the process wrong when dealing with Indonesians for instance then JH managers can be done for people smuggling. There are VERY strict processes in place to make sure this thing is done correctly, right down to informing any foreign Govt of relevant visiting JH management because to even talk to people about job placement in Australia without due notice to the local authorities constitutes a breach of anti people smuggling laws.

What I am saying is that there are a number of potential avenues open to 457 visa holders, most notable the adverse action for significant impacts as noted above. There is also an avenue for claims of racial discrimination or vilification, harassment, etc etc etc.

In short if a 457 worker wants to make a fuss it is far easier for them to do so than an ASM.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by mightyauster

The problem Tailwheel, from a LAME's point of view, is Juliar's "modern" Aviation Award allows a minimum rate of pay which is far, far below what the airlines are actually paying, as they have realised some time ago that no one would work for them. Unfortunately, this is where the bottom feeders like AMSA, IASA and JHAS come in.

Can't comment on AMSA or IASA but JHAS certainly weren't paying low end.

A key concept was to move to annualised salaries so guys get paid a good living regardless of overtime, the theory being that the incentive is then to get the work completed appropriately in less time with no need to do anywhere near as much overtime i.e. JHAS pays a level of overtime regardless but then gets the benefit of productivity boosts as things get completed more quickly and clients get value for money on the basis of quicker turnarounds.

In exchange JHAS needed the flexibility to roster people differing hours per week depending on the work required at that time. When your entire earning comes from selling time then time not billed is a major business killer. If you make 15% margin on a person's total cost then if 1 hour is wasted it takes approximately 7 hours of billed work to cover that wasted hour. That was why flexibility of hours rostered was critical. I know a number of the guys hated that, but essentially that is one of the key differences between working for an MRO and an airline where the load can be balanced and any overflow work outsourced.

I don't know how successful it was in practice, I left before it really got going, but that was the rationale. At the time it also meant that the guys got paid superannuation on the built in components like overtime and all other allowances which didn't all get paid on a more traditional hour based pay system.

Originally Posted by mightyauster

It is not only pay rates that are a concern. Since CASA have foisted the Part 66 system upon us, with the lie that the existing Mechanical LAMEs won't be affected, the reality is a foriegn full B1 rated LAME is much more economically useful than a legacy CASA LAME, especially if said companies don't want to pay for training.
I'm sorry, but the whole system is a complete and utter shambles.

You are correct but I disagree with your conclusion. The system is a shambles, your point that a full B1 is much more economical than the CASA LAME hits the nail on the head. In the modern environment you need those efficiencies or your costs blow out massively.

This is where I think QF have missed THE critical point. It doesn't matter if you give the guys a 3% pay rise, that's not where the problem lies. Heck, as I recall it LAME's took a 0% pay rise around 9/11 and SARS. The problem lies in the restrictive work practices requiring too many people compared to the B1/B2 system. That is just structurally inefficient and the costs associated with that are far more significant than any 3% pay rise.

As for training, one of my beliefs was that a JHAS training school was a must. Any AME who showed the initiative to get their basics in place would be given a type course to become a LAME. From memory the average LAME age when I did the numbers was over 53, to me that represented a major issue. The other key benefit of an in house training school was if there were ever a period when no major work was won then the guys could be given additional ratings or whatever via modular teaching. Multiskilling is also essential if an MRO based in Australia is to be viable.

Ultimately the school was something that didn't proceed, was disappointed that it didn't.

[mightyauster]

Romulus, I totally agree with you that the full B1 is far more efficient that the old CASA system, and I will go as far to say that it should've been introduced 15-20 years ago, with the introduction of fly by wire aircraft. A lot of people should be hanging their heads in shame that this mess has dragged on for so long - CASA, its political masters, the ALAEA and airline management.
My point is now, to stay employable and competitive with all the imports, I and lot of other CASA LAMEs, are now expected to cough for up to $28,000 and 2 1/2 years of rec leave.
I read with (non)amusement in the last week where the federal gubmint have bent to media pressure and are going to fund completion of training for a bunch of foreign medical students. It's funny how they can instantly find the resources to look after medical students, but Australian LAME's are expected to take a (savage) haircut when CASA changes the rules.

[Romulus]

Mightyauster, as I understood it if you qualify as a LAME under the old system you get a cutover to the new until 27 June 2015 based on your existing CAR 31.

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Becoming a LAME

[mightyauster]

Yes Romulus, CASA have allowed four years to change over. But how is that certain companies are allowed to import LAME's with full B1 Licenses, to the detriment of their own CAR 31 LAME's, telling them they need to fund their own license upgrades? It is a blatently discriminatory practice.

[tail wheel]

The problem Tailwheel, from a LAME's point of view, is Juliar's "modern" Aviation Award allows a minimum rate of pay which is far, far below what the airlines are actually paying, as they have realised some time ago that no one would work for them. Unfortunately, this is where the bottom feeders like AMSA, IASA and JHAS come in.

DIAC, like most of Australia, recognise the Modern Awards are not a basis for employment of overseas skilled workers (or local employees). DIAC have established a TSMIT (Temporary Skilled Migration Income Threshold) of $51,400 from 1 July 2012.

However, the TSMIT is only a base. The actual salary paid must be determined by market survey and the results submitted to DIAC with the Visa Nomination. The salary paid to an overseas worker must be equal to the salary paid to an Australian worker doing the same job. If there is no comparable Australian worker in the applicant company, the applicant company must submit wider industry market salary documentation.

[empire4]

You are all arguing over semantics, the whole point is that AUSTRALIANS must come first. They are not, and have not been for a long time.

Can anyone name any other country in which a foreigner, non-citizen is kept over a national......? In a lot of countries foreigners have less rights than nationals. We are already doing them a service by A, giving them a job and B, giving them the same protection as Australian citizens.

An Australian should not lose their job and a foreigner keep theirs where it can be reasonably retrained. END OF STORY!

[600ft-lb]

There is the argument that by forcing employers to treat them on all respects as an Australian there is a disincentive to employ a foreigner. But its a strange dynamic where this regulatory framework has been adopted so late in the world Australian LAMEs are at a competitive disadvantage in the world today, our employers and training organisations are playing catch up or just importing because that's cheaper. Coupled with most employers not wanting to spend to upskill their staff whilst trying to remove the LAME from the tarmac as much as possible... Situation as today currently stands.