5th September QF Announcement
QF can still sell tickets on three of the five above under the code share. This agreement may be bad for QF job holders and EK staff travelers.
The Don
The Don
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Qantas domestic will be beefed up as Emerites will want their passengers distributed around Australiasia by a full service carrier . When it comes to operating up to Asia there will be no need for more Qantas , full service operations due to the Emerites tie up . Emerites operate everywhere around Asia at the moment .
The Asian carriers are doing well to Australia . So Qantas will have to fight to get more market share against Asian operators that have a lower cost base and good service .
So Qantas will continue to Asia but Jetstar will get the biggest chance to develope due to cost base .
My thoughts only .
The Asian carriers are doing well to Australia . So Qantas will have to fight to get more market share against Asian operators that have a lower cost base and good service .
So Qantas will continue to Asia but Jetstar will get the biggest chance to develope due to cost base .
My thoughts only .
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Would they really axe all of the PER & BNE->SIN flts? Probably retime them given that SIN is one of the growth markets, retime and most likely axe one of the PER rotations. BKK prob disappear given the SYD/BKK rotation of the EK ac. Use this ac for MEL/SIN?
From the QF media release.
Does this mean that EK will then operate the other 84 services?
If so, what are the numbers from the various Australian ports?
Qantas will launch daily A380 services from both Sydney and Melbourne to London via Dubai, meaning that together Emirates and Qantas will offer 98 weekly services between Australia and Dubai.
If so, what are the numbers from the various Australian ports?
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"There is no upside to this for staff"
There is an upside. The cost savings will ensure QF have a future for the staff that remain.
Although a business is not in the marketplace for the benefit of the staff.
There is an upside. The cost savings will ensure QF have a future for the staff that remain.
Although a business is not in the marketplace for the benefit of the staff.
Sunny,
2 x 777 daily to BNE
1 x 380 2 x 777 daily to SYD and MEL
3 x 777 PER daily
1 x 777 ADL daily
2 x 777 daily to BNE
1 x 380 2 x 777 daily to SYD and MEL
3 x 777 PER daily
1 x 777 ADL daily
DA , they have pulled those five flights yes. If they just push the airframes over to the side of the strip and make 200 redundant then fair enough, but I don't think they'll do that, I think they'll sit down with the EK analysts and find some destinations ex Ausi that EK doesn't operate direct to, and start new routes. That way EK get a bigger and better route structure and QF get EK pax on the aircraft.
short flights long nights
SunnySA......the answer to your question is this...Qantas will operate 2 flights a day from Australia to London via Dubai, one from Sydney and one from Melbourne, all other flights will be operated by Emirates. As I said earlier, AJ (and some of the press it seems) have "glossed" over this fact.
Reality is...most of the EK/QF services will be operated by Emirates.
Reality is...most of the EK/QF services will be operated by Emirates.
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"There is no upside to this for staff"
There is an upside. The cost savings will ensure QF have a future for the staff that remain.
Although a business is not in the marketplace for the benefit of the staff.
There is an upside. The cost savings will ensure QF have a future for the staff that remain.
Although a business is not in the marketplace for the benefit of the staff.
"Our people are our single greatest strength and most enduring longterm competitive advantage."
Gary Kelly, CEO Southwest Airlines
Framer, with all due respect I feel you may be mistaken as to how this will work. Qantas will NOT, at least at this stage, use the airframes to go up in to Asia. The 767s and 747 will be sold. Meanwhile the A330s that are currently being used internationally will be redeployed to further strengthen the domestic network by adding capacity and replacing the existing 767 services (down the East Coast for example). What's in it for EK then you ask? It's the Australian DOMESTIC network that will feed in to EK and visa versa. This was the final knife that killed Qantas International, and it is now dead. I have personally never seen a company with such a bloated and inefficient back office as Qantas, the empires that exist there are just extraordinary! All the empires are constantly competing to allocate costs against each other, even if the overall result is a far greater overall cost to the corporation as a whole. It's quite bizarre; a "How not to do it" management guide if ever there was one. If anyone honestly believes a handful of A380s will support all these "paper shufflers" then they are frankly kidding themselves. It won't be long at all before that is made public, and the A380s also sold. It is why the International division was separated off from the domestic operation several months ago. I predict Qantas to shrink to about half its current size in terms of employee numbers.
So what of Asia then? Joyce, in his complete and utter lack of understanding of the region, believes that everyone in Asia is a peasant and therefore the "low cost" model is the one to use
The strategy is to create a "spiderweb" of Jetstar franchises (their so called "capital light" model) throughout the region, with each hub feeding in to the next. In my humble opinion this has to be one of his most idiotic strategies to date*, though it's admittedly a long list, but I digress.No matter which way it goes, Qantas International is now dead, and about the only hope is that perhaps Joyce will be thrown out, common sense will prevail, and the 787s sent to where they really belong.
*It was a tough choice between these "franchises", where Qantas management actually believe the locals are going to treat them as a true "business partner" and not just ripe fruit to be plucked. On the other hand "Red Q" would have easily won the "Most Idiotic Business Idea" award, but at least after waking up the next morning from the boozy business lunch on which it was developed, the paper napkins comprising its business plan were hastily destroyed before too much more money was wasted on it.
Squawk 7600,
If it pans out the way you describe then this is the start of the end for QF International and I'll happily eat my hat. The reason I don't think this will happen though is because it is so obviously going to destroy the International arm if they start shrinking it. Surely Hickey would step down now rather than over-see that happen?
The obvious way forward from here is to create a route structure that benefits both airlines, with QF doing most of the shuffling around in order to suit EK.
New destinations with the same number of international departures for QF as there is now and growing that over the next 5 years.
Hopefully that happens.
Cheers
If it pans out the way you describe then this is the start of the end for QF International and I'll happily eat my hat. The reason I don't think this will happen though is because it is so obviously going to destroy the International arm if they start shrinking it. Surely Hickey would step down now rather than over-see that happen?
The obvious way forward from here is to create a route structure that benefits both airlines, with QF doing most of the shuffling around in order to suit EK.
New destinations with the same number of international departures for QF as there is now and growing that over the next 5 years.
Hopefully that happens.
Cheers
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New destinations with the same number of international departures for QF as there is now and growing that over the next 5 years
The bit that hasn't been explained is if all these pax get off in Dubai to go to european destinations (good for pax), who fills up the QF 1 out of Dubai to LHR? How many pax will QF pick up ex Dubai? My thought is not many.
With this agreement, QF has no possibility of ever expanding westwards, no matter how much they turn the business around. EK will never allow it. SQ, CX, TG will have Asia completely tied up even more, so there will never again be expansion that way either.
So that leaves the QF International network as the US, and maybe South Africa, and South America. 12 x A380's would cover that, but looking towards the future I can see the 777x as the best fit for a very small but profitable international network.
I agree with 7600 but expect more job losses, over the next 5+ years, I believe up to 80% of QF staff could be shed.
For the domestic network and small international network, 10,000 employees would still probably be excessive depending on the level of maintenance done in Australia. I think Virgin has about 6,000 employees, so that's what they'll likely target. Plus perhaps a few thousand management consultants.
So that leaves the QF International network as the US, and maybe South Africa, and South America. 12 x A380's would cover that, but looking towards the future I can see the 777x as the best fit for a very small but profitable international network.
I agree with 7600 but expect more job losses, over the next 5+ years, I believe up to 80% of QF staff could be shed.
For the domestic network and small international network, 10,000 employees would still probably be excessive depending on the level of maintenance done in Australia. I think Virgin has about 6,000 employees, so that's what they'll likely target. Plus perhaps a few thousand management consultants.
Last edited by The The; 9th Sep 2012 at 00:41.
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Thanks direct anywhere for the other flights getting the chop.
Will be a minimum of 400 cabin crew jobs in oz to go.
I feel another package coming on after April.
Maybe only 300 or so if AKL base gets shut down.
There is still 100 crew based there even though we no longer have any wide bodies operating across the pond. The company actually passengers these crew on jet connect both ways AKL SYD AKL to pick up trips from Sydney and to get them home.
Will be a minimum of 400 cabin crew jobs in oz to go.
I feel another package coming on after April.
Maybe only 300 or so if AKL base gets shut down.
There is still 100 crew based there even though we no longer have any wide bodies operating across the pond. The company actually passengers these crew on jet connect both ways AKL SYD AKL to pick up trips from Sydney and to get them home.
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The bit that hasn't been explained is if all these pax get off in Dubai to go to european destinations (good for pax), who fills up the QF 1 out of Dubai to LHR? How many pax will QF pick up ex Dubai? My thought is not many.
Now, thinking about what value QF can add to EK with new destinations. What if QF started flying to new Asian destinations through Singapore? Australia-SIN-Asia? One flight from each Australian city, all timed to exchange pax in SIN before heading on to final destinations. This would not compete with EK (no one wants to fly all the way to DXB and back again). EK could bring pax to SIN from DXB and further west and put them onto QF metal to asian destinations that aren't served directly from DXB. Anyone think this could be a go-er?
Last edited by ButFli; 9th Sep 2012 at 01:25.
Framer,
Simon Hickey should be te first casualty as should Hrdlicka and Strambi. All these people are lightweights and think they are the smartest people in the room. This deal will shed 10,000 jobs over 3 years(2800 already) and will be the dumbest decision ever made in airline history. A desperate decision made by a desperate man. Jetstar International will be revealed for what it is, a disaster, and the Jetstar franchise will find it impossible to compete with deep pocketed Chinese new starts. Time to explore what happens to all the Air Service Agreements(ASA) owned by Australia, including those used by wet-leased freight companies. ACCC will need to explore this very closely as their mantra is to ensure the best deal for the industry and the community. Time will tell but our Australian industry will take years to recover as the expertise is exported. Better start finding nice tasting hat.
Simon Hickey should be te first casualty as should Hrdlicka and Strambi. All these people are lightweights and think they are the smartest people in the room. This deal will shed 10,000 jobs over 3 years(2800 already) and will be the dumbest decision ever made in airline history. A desperate decision made by a desperate man. Jetstar International will be revealed for what it is, a disaster, and the Jetstar franchise will find it impossible to compete with deep pocketed Chinese new starts. Time to explore what happens to all the Air Service Agreements(ASA) owned by Australia, including those used by wet-leased freight companies. ACCC will need to explore this very closely as their mantra is to ensure the best deal for the industry and the community. Time will tell but our Australian industry will take years to recover as the expertise is exported. Better start finding nice tasting hat.
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Squawk 7600,
If it pans out the way you describe then this is the start of the end for QF International and I'll happily eat my hat. The reason I don't think this will happen though is because it is so obviously going to destroy the International arm if they start shrinking it. Surely Hickey would step down now rather than over-see that happen?
The obvious way forward from here is to create a route structure that benefits both airlines, with QF doing most of the shuffling around in order to suit EK.
New destinations with the same number of international departures for QF as there is now and growing that over the next 5 years.
Hopefully that happens.
Cheers
If it pans out the way you describe then this is the start of the end for QF International and I'll happily eat my hat. The reason I don't think this will happen though is because it is so obviously going to destroy the International arm if they start shrinking it. Surely Hickey would step down now rather than over-see that happen?
The obvious way forward from here is to create a route structure that benefits both airlines, with QF doing most of the shuffling around in order to suit EK.
New destinations with the same number of international departures for QF as there is now and growing that over the next 5 years.
Hopefully that happens.
Cheers
Framer, with all due respect I'm not sure where you've been for the last few years, but this is not the "start" of anything. This has been going on for some time, with aircraft slowly but surely being ferried to the US for disposal. The only recent acquisitions were the A380, and the total number that Qantas ordered has been "delayed" (read cancelled). I agree, the correct strategy is to expand in to Asia as a premium product, but it has been made quite clear that will not happen, and Qantas will not spend one cent on the International division "... until it begins returning a profit" - Alan Joyce. I'm not sure what aircraft you believe they are going to run up to Asia! Yes it WILL be the death of Qantas International, that is why you hear so many people up in arms over it. The slated A380 running through DBX is merely a temporary measure to have the deal approved, as without that the ACCC would never approve it. As I mentioned, there is no way on God's earth that the number of QF paper pushers in the various Towers of Power can be supported, even with a dozen A380s, and it was why the international airline was restructured to be separate from the domestic airline. If anyone thinks it was done to "improve efficiency" as spruiked by management, then I have a ski lodge in Abu Dhabi you may be interested in buying. I'll give you a good price. Honest, trust me!
As for out East, there is no statutory requirement for Qantas to fly anywhere. They will just pull the plug, say it was inevitable "because of the greedy unions", the management team will receive their golden parachutes and wander off to wherever morons go when they're not destroying companies.I agree, Jetstar International's days are numbered. It's always been a disaster. As far as most of Asia is concerned it's not required anyway, as the grand plan is to feed from hub to hub (SIN, HKG, NRT, etc). Despite the fact that all of these "ventures" have been a complete an utter waste of money, Joyce remains convinced it's the way to go. Maybe, just MAYBE he will finally open his eyes and see that J* fills a niche in the market, and is not the market itself, but I wouldn't count on it. The muppet will need to be pushed I'd expect before any changes are seen to that strategy. Unlike the restrictions placed on QF, J* has absolutely no restrictions on where its principle place of business is located. I expect the 787s to be placed with Jetstar in Asia (probably SIN) and fly back to Aus with the cheapest foreign based crews who have shafted each other to lower the bar further on pay and conditions. J* domestic will contract slightly, but will be there for the foreseeable future. It fills a niche and prevents other carriers entering the market. If you're an FO there I trust you like the right seat, as you're not going anywhere else fast. With the MOU argument raging all I can say is that a few people are going to be eating humble pie, and I'll just leave it at that.
One caveat to all the above is that it relies on the existing management "team" remaining. As much as I think it's fair to be nervous if you're a QF or J* pilot, I'd suggest that's nothing compared to all levels of management. If you're in middle management you're gone already, last person out don't forget to turn out the lights. BUT upper management has increasingly been seen as completely incompetent. There would be a few nervous CVs being updated there I'd suggest!
Personally I'm just hoping for QF International's sake that there's a sudden change of strategy wrt the 787. They really should be going to QF International, to service point-to-point city pairs as a premium product (and leave the backpackers with J* SIN/HKG/etc to go through their hubs). But I haven't seen even the slightest hint so far that such a logical strategy is being considered; management is too busy with their "we know better" plans
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Originally Posted by ButFli
One would think that LHR-bound pax from ADL, BNE, PER etc would fly to DXB on EK metal (QF flight number) and switch to QF1/9 in DXB. It seems to work perfectly fine for QF through SIN so I can't imagine it will be any worse through DXB.
And don't forget the thrice daily to MAN, twice dailies to BHX and GLA and daily NCL.
And the five LHR will all be 380 by end of February 2013......