5th September QF Announcement
I would suggest it is a frequency issue and possibly a reserve coverage issue rather than some union mandated minimum. We also have laws which are difficult to change in regard to flight and duty.
Emirates often go places twice a day so you can end up with a 15 hour flight followed by a 18 hour layover then back home again.
Emirates often go places twice a day so you can end up with a 15 hour flight followed by a 18 hour layover then back home again.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 4th Sep 2012 at 04:01.
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This thread is reminding me of the poster on this site who blamed AIPA for somehow making QF only do Flap 2 Takeoff's on the A330.
I would have thought the slip time is function of FDTL's and the schedule. I doubt AIPA has any input in it what so ever.
I would have thought the slip time is function of FDTL's and the schedule. I doubt AIPA has any input in it what so ever.
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Widebody captain doing average hours on probably 250k AUD tax free but total employee cost still equals 250 to EK, versus QF 380 captain on around 350k .... So 30% lower ... And this is across all employee groups...that is the reason they make coin.
Some airlines have claimed that being based in Dubai gives Emirates an unfair labour cost advantage over other airlines. Emirates has countered this by stating that it faces the same costs to attract and retain staff recruited from around the world on expatriate terms and conditions as other airlines. The airline points out that the total cost of expatriate employee benefits amounts to more than US$400 million per annum
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Not so, Neville. All ULRs at EK have at least 24 hours rest, and the longer flights have 48.
Speaking of 48, CAO 48 is available online for you at Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Home. Doesn't mention anything about needing two and a half days off in London after a 14 hour flight....
And are you suggesting the crew are on reserve down route?
Speaking of 48, CAO 48 is available online for you at Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Home. Doesn't mention anything about needing two and a half days off in London after a 14 hour flight....
And are you suggesting the crew are on reserve down route?
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As far as I'm aware the LHR reschedule was to "best suit business travellers with early morning arrivals..."
And it was, is and always will be b0llocks.
As a business traveller, I fg hate early morning arrivals. Can't check into a hotel, so I feel tired & scuzzy all day. Just what you need walking into a meeting, to know you're half asleep...
Aus - Europe you're going to miss a day no matter what you do. Better to arrive at night, get a feed, a decent sleep & kick off the next morning in some kind of reasonable shape.
So QF tin the 32 and say "here SQ, here's a full A380 load of punters that we don't want any more".
Minimum rest is set by the GCAA not Emirates. The UAE GCAA sets the FTLs, following closely, international standards. There are a few variations.
Meanwhile QF have to deal with CASA and all the problems that involves.
There are simply no 15 hour sectors with 18 hours layovers. Zero. Very few layovers less than 24 hours
When you are a nominated augmenting pilot, you do not log hours spent in the bunk (for the purposes of the 100hr and 900hr limits).
There is no 'factor' applied. Typically on a 31hr ULR pairing, you log around 22 hours.
There is no 'factor' applied. Typically on a 31hr ULR pairing, you log around 22 hours.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 4th Sep 2012 at 08:09.
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Yes but they can hardly be call independent when the president of Emirates was part of that. It was like having QF on the board of CASA. The argument that the GCAA is some sort of independent authority doesn't hold much water.
Wrong Woodja and Wrong Neville. HH Sheikh Ahmed has nothing to do with the GCAA.
He is the president of the DCAA.
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Which the rest of the world logs as flight time. Either we agree it is or it isn't and we all play by the same rules.
Whilst I agree with you regarding the practice, you are wrong, I worked for a number of years for one of the largest charter airlines in Europe.
On long haul sectors we logged the time we were in the seat, unless you were the PIC...as was allowed by the UK CAA in variation to the standard CAP 371 FTL scheme.
EK factor augmenting crew flight times as Contacted says, If I'm operating DXB-PER for instance, I am credited the full Block-time, the AUG guy/girl gets planned at 60% but logs the actual time in the seat..and is paid for the full block time and credited the full duty.
EK's FTL's are almost a cut and paste of the UK's old CAP 371 system, QF under CASA may have more restrictive FTL's but that's a national difference rather than a conspiracy to undercut everyone on EK's behalf.
Last edited by haughtney1; 4th Sep 2012 at 11:50.
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I hope for Qantas' sake this is more than a code share deal. It better be revenue etc etc, the whole deal needing ACCC approval, and contracts to be signed. Or it's goodbye Qantas international.
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Just a couple of hours to go....
Rumor has it that AJ will announce that he has reinstated his bonus for 2012/2013 and that board member Cosgrove has gone on a long overdue diet.
Rumor has it that AJ will announce that he has reinstated his bonus for 2012/2013 and that board member Cosgrove has gone on a long overdue diet.
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More than a few variations
Minimum rest is set by the GCAA not Emirates. The UAE GCAA sets the FTLs, following closely, international standards. There are a few variations.
There is minimum rest stated under the normal FTL rules however the ULR flights and pairings are a different kettle of fish and this over sight was a brilliant commercial decision don't you think ?
A line of thought is that as the ULR scheme is approved by the regulator then it must be OK ?
CAR-OPS 1.1130 ULR OPS and CAAP 14 ULR Operations documents available for download on the GCAA web site for what is expected of a ULR operator in the UAE.
International Standards for ULR Flights ? There are none. GCAA mention on their web site that they view both ULR operators in the UAE as pioneers in ULR operations. Look forward to more ground breaking FTLs coming your way sooner rather than later. woodja51 comments are on the right track.
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Uplock, I'm wondering if you are being a little misleading here? with reference to the ULR rest plan....a quick check shows that the different kettle of fish i.e no min rest relates to disruption, rather than normal ops, and is contingent on the commanders say so. Not an unreasonable variation I would suggest.
Secondly, you have either deliberately or in error conveniently not included the approved route specific rest plan, that is not only GCAA and company approved, but must also be approved by the destination authority...why muddy the waters with as few facts as possible eh.
FWIW I find ULR flights less fatiguing than a EU trip because we can tailor the rest, and I can sleep in those rather uncomfortable bunks
Secondly, you have either deliberately or in error conveniently not included the approved route specific rest plan, that is not only GCAA and company approved, but must also be approved by the destination authority...why muddy the waters with as few facts as possible eh.
FWIW I find ULR flights less fatiguing than a EU trip because we can tailor the rest, and I can sleep in those rather uncomfortable bunks
Last edited by haughtney1; 4th Sep 2012 at 14:23.
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haughtney1 Informative with relevant source material. No Muddy waters and your wrong about rest/disruption it applies on scheduled/planned and actual basis .Show me the paragraph stating the required rest when you do up to 22 hrs duty (There is none, and why not as this is addressed in the normal FTL's ) and I will buy you a beer. Lots of facts contained in the relevant GCAA CAR mentioned above along with GCAA CAAP14. Your misinformed about approval being subject to the destination authority . Providing the GCAA are happy then every one else goes with the flow.
I understand your view and where your coming from. I recall a flight on our network that went over the 22 hr limitation several years ago where the crew decided to operate back to DXB after having less than 19 hrs rest . Our FTLs on ULR ops do not spell out minimum rest, unlike the GCAA ULR regulations which do state that 48 hrs is the minimum rest after doing a ULR sector. GCAA define a sector length of 16 hrs being a ULR flight where EK define it as 14 hrs . Have to correct you from the GCAA CAAP 14 (6.2.1)The maximum permitted FDP (including Ramp/Air Turn Backs) for any ULR operation is 22:00 hours on both a scheduled/planned and actual basis.
I understand your view and where your coming from. I recall a flight on our network that went over the 22 hr limitation several years ago where the crew decided to operate back to DXB after having less than 19 hrs rest . Our FTLs on ULR ops do not spell out minimum rest, unlike the GCAA ULR regulations which do state that 48 hrs is the minimum rest after doing a ULR sector. GCAA define a sector length of 16 hrs being a ULR flight where EK define it as 14 hrs . Have to correct you from the GCAA CAAP 14 (6.2.1)The maximum permitted FDP (including Ramp/Air Turn Backs) for any ULR operation is 22:00 hours on both a scheduled/planned and actual basis.
Last edited by uplock; 4th Sep 2012 at 18:28. Reason: add further information
The word has been getting out - Qantas shares down 2.56% yesterday.
The slow strangling of the airline by its management will continue until the Government of the day agrees to repeal the Qantas Sale Act so that the bastards can privatise it.
At which point, Qantas will "miraculously" start to recover....and make good profits again...by screwing Australian travellers like they used to do.
The slow strangling of the airline by its management will continue until the Government of the day agrees to repeal the Qantas Sale Act so that the bastards can privatise it.
At which point, Qantas will "miraculously" start to recover....and make good profits again...by screwing Australian travellers like they used to do.
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Joyce won't announce anything today, that would give the markets nearly three full working days to digest and react to the news.
IF there is an announcement or deal, which I'm lead to believe it's looking less and less likely it will come late on a friday afternoon or on a weekend when the markets are closing/closed and all eyes are on the footy finals.
IF there is an announcement or deal, which I'm lead to believe it's looking less and less likely it will come late on a friday afternoon or on a weekend when the markets are closing/closed and all eyes are on the footy finals.
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I wouldn't think Tim Clark would fly in for a Mochichino or latte with Joyce.
Either an announcement or some serious negotiations behind the scenes.
Unless of course, Clark is more interested in talking to the government who would be at work mid week. A face to face to bolster support for a deal that can be stamped by the ACCC.
Either an announcement or some serious negotiations behind the scenes.
Unless of course, Clark is more interested in talking to the government who would be at work mid week. A face to face to bolster support for a deal that can be stamped by the ACCC.
Last edited by Mstr Caution; 4th Sep 2012 at 22:45.
There wont be any revenue share.
With last years union debacle, and ongoing industrial issues at QF, Tim Clark will never expose emirates to that crap.
He is not going to risk funding a QF industrial dispute.
UAE companies are very cautious around labour issues. They enjoy absolute control of their workforce and it is a critical element to their flexibility and therefore profitability. If Clark gets any hint that he may have to discuss anything with a union before he wants to implement it.............Game over.
With last years union debacle, and ongoing industrial issues at QF, Tim Clark will never expose emirates to that crap.
He is not going to risk funding a QF industrial dispute.
UAE companies are very cautious around labour issues. They enjoy absolute control of their workforce and it is a critical element to their flexibility and therefore profitability. If Clark gets any hint that he may have to discuss anything with a union before he wants to implement it.............Game over.