Confidential Reporting
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The involvement of hostile unions such as the ALAEA as some sort of defacto safety reporting authority is a dangerous idea and will be nothing but a paper tiger. It will be interesting when a safety issue is reported to the union and not to the ATSB or CASA and is ignored, hidden or not passed on for union or political reasons and results in a fatal accident. Can't wait to see the angry man from the union in court explaining that outcome. What a joke.
Unions do not serve all stakeholders equally, treat non union members diffently and are have zero powers to act in regulatory or compliance enforcement roles. Your Fed Sec is on an ego fueled power trip and is relying on gullible people to get information that they can use against employers. Simple as that!
Unions do not serve all stakeholders equally, treat non union members diffently and are have zero powers to act in regulatory or compliance enforcement roles. Your Fed Sec is on an ego fueled power trip and is relying on gullible people to get information that they can use against employers. Simple as that!
The involvement of hostile unions such as the ALAEA as some sort of defacto safety reporting authority is a dangerous idea and will be nothing but a paper tiger. It will be interesting when a safety issue is reported to the union and not to the ATSB or CASA and is ignored, hidden or not passed on for union or political reasons and results in a fatal accident. Can't wait to see the angry man from the union in court explaining that outcome. What a joke.
Unions do not serve all stakeholders equally, treat non union members diffently and are have zero powers to act in regulatory or compliance enforcement roles. Your Fed Sec is on an ego fueled power trip and is relying on gullible people to get information that they can use against employers. Simple as that!
Unions do not serve all stakeholders equally, treat non union members diffently and are have zero powers to act in regulatory or compliance enforcement roles. Your Fed Sec is on an ego fueled power trip and is relying on gullible people to get information that they can use against employers. Simple as that!
Unions do not serve all stakeholders equally,
Last edited by Arnold E; 11th Aug 2012 at 10:09.
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The nature of the beast
First we get this:-
Summary Miller report.
2007 Miller Report.
Then there's this:- Senate Inquiry into Pilot Training and Airline Safety Including the Transport Safety Investigation Amendment (Incident Reporting) Bill 2010.
My bold.
.
Is there a need for a NTSB style system? seems so.
Summary Miller report.
2007 Miller Report.
Then there's this:- Senate Inquiry into Pilot Training and Airline Safety Including the Transport Safety Investigation Amendment (Incident Reporting) Bill 2010.
18. With respect to CASA’s function in developing standards, effective rule-making needs to be based on principles of safety risk management. Safety risk management for the Regulator involves identifying hazards, assessing the safety risks of the consequences of those hazards and developing regulations that provide acceptable mitigation/control of the consequences of hazards.
19. In accordance with the provisions of the Transport Safety Investigation Act, the disclosure of information from ATSB investigations for purposes other than addressing identified safety issues within safety systems is limited – even to CASA – in the interests of preserving the free flow of information to the ATSB. If CASA is concerned to get additional information it can source the information separately in the majority of circumstances through its own processes. However, this is not as practicable with respect to accident and incident reports which the ATSB receives over 15 000 notifications in relation to each year.
20. For this reason the ATSB and CASA are presently considering ways in which CASA can obtain more open access to the ATSB accident and incident notification information, in order for CASA to enhance its ability to fulfil its functions under the Civil Aviation Act, without compromising confidentiality where it is required. Understandably, providing more open access necessitates the development of appropriate protective mechanisms governing CASA use of the information it obtains for certain regulatory purposes. In this respect, the ATSB and CASA are cooperating closely in the development of evolving ICAO standards affecting the disclosure of sensitive safety information
19. In accordance with the provisions of the Transport Safety Investigation Act, the disclosure of information from ATSB investigations for purposes other than addressing identified safety issues within safety systems is limited – even to CASA – in the interests of preserving the free flow of information to the ATSB. If CASA is concerned to get additional information it can source the information separately in the majority of circumstances through its own processes. However, this is not as practicable with respect to accident and incident reports which the ATSB receives over 15 000 notifications in relation to each year.
20. For this reason the ATSB and CASA are presently considering ways in which CASA can obtain more open access to the ATSB accident and incident notification information, in order for CASA to enhance its ability to fulfil its functions under the Civil Aviation Act, without compromising confidentiality where it is required. Understandably, providing more open access necessitates the development of appropriate protective mechanisms governing CASA use of the information it obtains for certain regulatory purposes. In this respect, the ATSB and CASA are cooperating closely in the development of evolving ICAO standards affecting the disclosure of sensitive safety information
.
Is there a need for a NTSB style system? seems so.
Last edited by Kharon; 11th Aug 2012 at 20:13.
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Ok - let me out out a scenario to the Fed Sec.
The ALAEA becomes a defacto safety reporting body because pilots and oter industry stakeholders are too scared of their job security to use the exisiting and legitimate reporting systems, including confidential systems, which already exist.
You are informed of a serious safety issue at a regional airline. The issue is well documented and is backed up with substantial proof. The issue represents a serious risk to the safety of the public who travel on the airline. The issue involves a senior employee of the airline who is ignoring critical safety checks and suigning off works as completed when they are not.
The employee in question turns out to be a 7 year memeber of the ALAEA and is paid up union member.
So - are you saying that a union would investigate and forward allegations against a union member with the same enthusiasm as a non union memeber , or a management figure who has clashed with the union, or any union, over IR issues???? Not a chance in hell that it would go any further. It would be mothballed and the shonky engineer would be tipped off by his comrades within 5 minutes.
What stakeholders do unions not treat equally? Read the above scenario again, slowly this time, or just make your own list of anyone who clashes with a union body for anything that is not in the union interest.
Fed Sec Steve - can you confirm for the readers that you, as a union organiser, would forward safety reports about union members which would likley result in prosecution of that union member.
Why not just say it like it is??? The union wants gullible and scared people to report safety issues directly to them so they can use them against the employer as they see fit.
The alternative is akin to calling the police officers union when you see a bank robbery taking place instead of calling the real police. A dumber idea has never been put to paper!!
The ALAEA becomes a defacto safety reporting body because pilots and oter industry stakeholders are too scared of their job security to use the exisiting and legitimate reporting systems, including confidential systems, which already exist.
You are informed of a serious safety issue at a regional airline. The issue is well documented and is backed up with substantial proof. The issue represents a serious risk to the safety of the public who travel on the airline. The issue involves a senior employee of the airline who is ignoring critical safety checks and suigning off works as completed when they are not.
The employee in question turns out to be a 7 year memeber of the ALAEA and is paid up union member.
So - are you saying that a union would investigate and forward allegations against a union member with the same enthusiasm as a non union memeber , or a management figure who has clashed with the union, or any union, over IR issues???? Not a chance in hell that it would go any further. It would be mothballed and the shonky engineer would be tipped off by his comrades within 5 minutes.
What stakeholders do unions not treat equally? Read the above scenario again, slowly this time, or just make your own list of anyone who clashes with a union body for anything that is not in the union interest.
Fed Sec Steve - can you confirm for the readers that you, as a union organiser, would forward safety reports about union members which would likley result in prosecution of that union member.
Why not just say it like it is??? The union wants gullible and scared people to report safety issues directly to them so they can use them against the employer as they see fit.
The alternative is akin to calling the police officers union when you see a bank robbery taking place instead of calling the real police. A dumber idea has never been put to paper!!
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Victor Two,
The scenario you describe has already occured to me. CASA is the body I reported to and Dr Aleck and FOI Scrimes informed the company I work for. My email was provided to the company. CASA is as corrupt as the situation you have described.
Greedy
The scenario you describe has already occured to me. CASA is the body I reported to and Dr Aleck and FOI Scrimes informed the company I work for. My email was provided to the company. CASA is as corrupt as the situation you have described.
Greedy
Last edited by Greedy; 13th Aug 2012 at 07:15.
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Its a pointless discussion anyway as it will never happen. CASA may be a rudderless and dysfunctional mess .....but they are a lot better than the ALAEA.
The recent public circus on the corruption and stealing within the HSU is indicative of the level of the behaviour which is found within most Australian Unions.
The recent public circus on the corruption and stealing within the HSU is indicative of the level of the behaviour which is found within most Australian Unions.
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So - are you saying that a union would investigate and forward allegations against a union member with the same enthusiasm as a non union memeber , or a management figure who has clashed with the union, or any union, over IR issues???? Not a chance in hell that it would go any further. It would be mothballed and the shonky engineer would be tipped off by his comrades within 5 minutes.
You see when someone makes a mistake there are usually several contributing factors. Deliberate, intentional errors are extremely rare. Errors usually occur because of a faulty system. You can write any crap on here you want fella, nobody is taking you seriously.
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The recent public circus on the corruption and stealing within the HSU is indicative of the level of the behaviour which is found within most Australian Unions.
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The recent public circus on the corruption and stealing within the HSU is indicative of the level of the behaviour which is found within most Australian Unions.
The definition of "defamatory matter" varies among Australian jurisdictions. In some jurisdictions common law definitions apply, while in others (e.g. Queensland and Tasmania) the definition has been codified.
Very generally speaking, material that could be found to be defamatory includes that which has the tendency to lower the person in the estimation of others, or that would tend to result in the person being shunned or avoided or that is likely to expose the person to hatred, contempt or ridicule (trivial ridicule or good natured humour is less likely to be problematic than derisory ridicule).
In its 1996 report on defamation law, the A.C.T. Community Law Reform Committee outlined defamation as follows:
"Defamation is the publication of words or images to a person that damages the reputation of another ['slander' if spoken words, 'libel' if written words or images]. A defamatory statement is one that is likely to cause ordinary, reasonable people to think less of the person about whom the words or images are published. An inference that casts a defamatory imputation is enough to bring an action.
https://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/defamation.html
https://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/defamation.html
V2:
Wasn't that exactly what happened to the Sunnies engineers V2? They grounded aircraft over serious unresolved security issues. The company response was to stand them down.
Furthermore, you have failed to address the very real "double bind" problem - where the "official" corporate culture is allegedly safety oriented, but the actual corporate culture is to ignore the regulations. This leaves a pilot or LAME in a terrible situation which is all too common.
You are informed of a serious safety issue at a regional airline. The issue is well documented and is backed up with substantial proof. The issue represents a serious risk to the safety of the public who travel on the airline. The issue involves a senior employee of the airline who is ignoring critical safety checks and suigning off works as completed when they are not.
The employee in question turns out to be a 7 year memeber of the ALAEA and is paid up union member.
So - are you saying that a union would investigate and forward allegations against a union member with the same enthusiasm as a non union memeber , or a management figure who has clashed with the union, or any union, over IR issues???? Not a chance in hell that it would go any further. It would be mothballed and the shonky engineer would be tipped off by his comrades within 5 minutes.
The employee in question turns out to be a 7 year memeber of the ALAEA and is paid up union member.
So - are you saying that a union would investigate and forward allegations against a union member with the same enthusiasm as a non union memeber , or a management figure who has clashed with the union, or any union, over IR issues???? Not a chance in hell that it would go any further. It would be mothballed and the shonky engineer would be tipped off by his comrades within 5 minutes.
Furthermore, you have failed to address the very real "double bind" problem - where the "official" corporate culture is allegedly safety oriented, but the actual corporate culture is to ignore the regulations. This leaves a pilot or LAME in a terrible situation which is all too common.
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Safety in aviation is for the most part, just something you are required to look like you do something about.
My previous employer had a supposed safety reporting system, it was there because they were required to have such a system.
I was labelled a troublemaker and told to keep my head down because I submitted "too many" reports. Bear in mind that I was working in a brand new start up division for this company, so there were PLENTY of safety issues that cropped up with equipment and procedures. Things like unserviceable equipment, improper use of safety equipment, driving extremely dangerously around aircraft etc. As a team leader, I'd try to deal with the issue there and then, but staff who knew it all would not change.
I thought little things like stairs blowing away from aircraft and cabin attendants nearly walking out of the aircraft were real issues. Some were acted upon, but it soon got around that I would "grass out" anyone, which was not true. We were told the system was there to be used and that it would be kept confidential. It got to the stage where people I worked with were stabbing me in the back to "get me back" for reporting their stupid behaviour and even going as far as telling staff in other companies we worked with how I couldn't be trusted etc, just because I filled out safety reports.
The whole problem was piss poor, spineless management who couldn't adequately deal with safety problems and made any issues that arose a personal problem with the staff involved, instead of learning and improving the areas around the problem.
I really don't think I'd ever work in aviation again after that.
My previous employer had a supposed safety reporting system, it was there because they were required to have such a system.
I was labelled a troublemaker and told to keep my head down because I submitted "too many" reports. Bear in mind that I was working in a brand new start up division for this company, so there were PLENTY of safety issues that cropped up with equipment and procedures. Things like unserviceable equipment, improper use of safety equipment, driving extremely dangerously around aircraft etc. As a team leader, I'd try to deal with the issue there and then, but staff who knew it all would not change.
I thought little things like stairs blowing away from aircraft and cabin attendants nearly walking out of the aircraft were real issues. Some were acted upon, but it soon got around that I would "grass out" anyone, which was not true. We were told the system was there to be used and that it would be kept confidential. It got to the stage where people I worked with were stabbing me in the back to "get me back" for reporting their stupid behaviour and even going as far as telling staff in other companies we worked with how I couldn't be trusted etc, just because I filled out safety reports.
The whole problem was piss poor, spineless management who couldn't adequately deal with safety problems and made any issues that arose a personal problem with the staff involved, instead of learning and improving the areas around the problem.
I really don't think I'd ever work in aviation again after that.
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Sounds like Typhoon650 has worked in FNQ??
I really don't think I'd ever work in aviation again after that.
Yet.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 14th Aug 2012 at 10:33.
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OK, whatever - if it is such a magnificent idea, go ahead and make it happen then.
When can we expect to see these inspired improvements implemented and really making a meaningful improvement to safety anyway?
Union Pride - Touch One Touch All.......if you know what I mean.
When can we expect to see these inspired improvements implemented and really making a meaningful improvement to safety anyway?
Union Pride - Touch One Touch All.......if you know what I mean.
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When can we expect to see these inspired improvements implemented and really making a meaningful improvement to safety anyway?
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Ok guys. I've been working on this little one. I want confidential reporting made as easy as possible. How about a smartphone app.
In development now but interested in the feedback. Would it help if you could download an app that is extremely simple. Options (all built into app) are just take a photo of a document (log coupon, ASIR, hazard report etc....) and it sends it into central location?
Options such as aircraft Rego, department and your name available if you wanted. Sent in photo is completely anonymous and cannot be traced with options to delay send up to 48 hours (in case you are in flt mode or want to cover your tracks a bit).
I know it won't be used by everyone but if 3% of aviaiton professionals used it along with the official reporting systems (that get covered up), we will make a difference. Let me know your thoughts. I have some blueprints I've developed if anyone wants further info.
In development now but interested in the feedback. Would it help if you could download an app that is extremely simple. Options (all built into app) are just take a photo of a document (log coupon, ASIR, hazard report etc....) and it sends it into central location?
Options such as aircraft Rego, department and your name available if you wanted. Sent in photo is completely anonymous and cannot be traced with options to delay send up to 48 hours (in case you are in flt mode or want to cover your tracks a bit).
I know it won't be used by everyone but if 3% of aviaiton professionals used it along with the official reporting systems (that get covered up), we will make a difference. Let me know your thoughts. I have some blueprints I've developed if anyone wants further info.
Last edited by ALAEA Fed Sec; 8th Oct 2012 at 13:34.