Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

History Repeating

Old 10th Jun 2012, 07:58
  #21 (permalink)  
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Think about it Cargo. 36,000 people, contractors, tourism, travel agents, hangers on of all descriptions. Could you even begin to imagine Question Time, can you imagine, the pollies running for cover, the shock jocks, the Opposition (whoever that is) the outrage, the damnation, all hell would break loose. Yes PAN AM folded, but there were plenty more US airlines to replace it, so who do you replace QF with? JQ? The Arabs? (that would go over well) Virgin? Loose Rivet Airlines? Tinkler/Reinhart/Forrest/Palmer Airlines? Not many options is there. Imagine people fronting up to the IT and no Australian airline, no QF, just a Roo with a big orange star on its arse. Take a bit of getting used to. I honestly don't think the country would accept it, no way, and the pollies know it, and thereby lies the problem.
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Old 10th Jun 2012, 11:49
  #22 (permalink)  
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Qantas management were handed a fully functioning airline, all assets paid for and structures in place. They didn't have to lift a finger to start from scratch like most entrepreneurs. It was floated and almost immediately they started bleating about the unfair competition they received from foreign-government owned airlines!
Kind of like the current government. Handed a fully functional country with a budget surplus, a working asylum seeker policy..... and so on!!!

So I wouldn't count on them to fix anything. Not that the opposition could do any better.

Last edited by Denzeldude; 10th Jun 2012 at 11:51.
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Old 10th Jun 2012, 11:58
  #23 (permalink)  
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Teresa, where were you 12 years ago when Australia's Other airline was left to go broke.....or is it just that it wasn't the big Q! Is Qantas sacred in this country or something. Why not Virgin, they had bugger all 12 years ago and have now grown into a viable replacement for Ansett and why not Qantas?
All this crap that QF is some saced cow or something. It's time people woke up, it is a business and needs to make money, lots of grubby hands in the till at all levels of the company , poor choice of aircraft and a limited route structure. And don't get me started on the sense of entitlement that the employees seem to have.
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Old 10th Jun 2012, 12:37
  #24 (permalink)  
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Twelve years ago RU/16 I was in QF. Nobody celebrated when Ansett got the chop, nobody, except the powers to be, it was destroyed by Abeles, Murdoch, Air NZ and the failings of some of its management including Joyce. No. QF is not a sacred cow, its more than that, its a Icon, its a whole history lesson, its a part of National Security, it has a war history, and it has been a comfort to many Australians around the world during a crisis, eg Bali and the Tsunami, Darwin and cyclone Tracy et al. Other than that it is just a airline. Virgin is a pommy outfit, a good outfit but a pommy outfit. It has never and will never be the National Carrier. It would be like fitting out the Wallabies in white jumpers with a lion on them, and calling them all Nigel. Yes you are correct, the ill choice of aircraft, poor management, the closing down of lucrative routes, taking away a career from staff and just offering contracts, vilifying of staff, the breakup of one if not the best engineering units in the world, and yet this same staff that you say have a sense of entitlement, are the same staff who despite having their heads kicked in regularly, thru loyalty and sheer bloody mindedness and determination to keep the company going, just keep on keeping on.
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Old 10th Jun 2012, 12:45
  #25 (permalink)  
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And don't get me started on the sense of entitlement that the employees seem to have.
Ok, we won't. You've already demonstrated enough ignorance.
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Old 10th Jun 2012, 12:55
  #26 (permalink)  
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I might be wrong but I don't think this results in an actual cost to the taxpayer.
Bollocks, I pay $1.56 for my litre of diesel, so if a miner does not pay that, then where is the difference coming from, yes thats right, out of my pocket.

Diesel fuel rebate isn't really a subsidy is it?, fuel is a legitimate business expense in mining and farming, not really any different to claiming tax expenses elsewhere in business.
You are kidding are you not? surley if you dont pay full price for something, then it is being subsidized. Claiming a tax expense is also a subsidy. This is exactly what I have said, there is almost NO business that is not subsidized somehow, some more tranparently than others.
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Old 10th Jun 2012, 13:04
  #27 (permalink)  
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Damn well said Teresa
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Old 10th Jun 2012, 13:05
  #28 (permalink)  
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Funky Fact.. East West was owned by Skywest in 1983.. Ah the '80's
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Old 10th Jun 2012, 13:37
  #29 (permalink)  
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I could be wrong but I believe the diesel fuel rebate to farmers and miners is a return to those "off road" users of the excise levied on diesel as recognition that they do not use those roads which are partly maintained by the said excise.
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Old 10th Jun 2012, 23:11
  #30 (permalink)  
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You are correct, On Eyre, though all the farmers I know drive their diesel 4WDs both on and off road. How does one accurately keep track of the percentage on and off? Just a wild guess really.
You can also claim the rebate on petrol used in most of the same circumstances as diesel these days, too.
Only about 25% of the excise collected goes to the maintenance of roads. The rest goes into general Commonwealth revenue.
Marine transport also gets the excise fully rebated. Is there an excise on Avtur and Avgas? Damn right there is, but only for domestic aviation use. International flights are exempt. The Gillard government has legislated to just about triple the Avtur excise from 3.6 cents in 2011 to 10.2 cents per litre in 2014-15. Somehow this is supposed to reduce carbon emissions.

Last edited by Captain Gidday; 10th Jun 2012 at 23:25.
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Old 10th Jun 2012, 23:25
  #31 (permalink)  
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Teresa guess what, while everyone was lauding the fab QF and it's history there was the other airline right along side operating privately without the gov help.
Parked next to the QF aircraft in Drw during the cyclone were Ansett aircraft. AN would also have assisted in Bali had it been allowed to survive. AN had a prouder history as it was sucessful withoutnthe assistance ofmthe taxpayer.
Not so long ago QF was owned 25% by the poms. People need to get it out of their heads that QF must survive at all costs, it needs to become a great business and great airline again and if it can't should die like other failed businesses do.
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Old 10th Jun 2012, 23:57
  #32 (permalink)  
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Nice theory ru/16 but the demise of Ansett was a disaster for the country. If qantas were to follow, the flow on would be far more massive. Despite the correctness of what you say, I just could not see it being allowed to go under whilst it is such a dominant force domestically with hundreds of thousands of jobs and businesses depending on its survival. It would be conditional, but saved imho
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Old 11th Jun 2012, 00:23
  #33 (permalink)  
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I could be wrong but I believe the diesel fuel rebate to farmers and miners is a return to those "off road" users of the excise levied on diesel as recognition that they do not use those roads which are partly maintained by the said excise.
You miss the point, it doesn't matter if its on road, off road, up the walls or across the ceiling, its still a rebate and therefore assistance paid for by the taxpayer.
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Old 11th Jun 2012, 00:44
  #34 (permalink)  
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the demise of Ansett was a disaster for the country
If my memory serves me correctly this disaster occurred because corporate vultures had their way.

Corporate vultures are now circling Qantas again.

Reading all the comments here and in the media and whilst taking into account a previous buyout attempt, I can really only see a positive outcome for those who are pulling the levers.

It's gunna get messy starting tomorrow morning me thinks.
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Old 11th Jun 2012, 00:54
  #35 (permalink)  
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QF will survive in whatever guise either with or without the assistance of the Guv'amunt. What I do predict is that a certain amount of 'micro-economic reform' will eventually take place that will mean the historic T&Cs will disappear. The agenda to engage in industry reform has not been abandoned since 2001, believe me.

The reality is that Ansett played a very significant role in the Australian economy and its demise caused significant disruption in many markets. For example, many Ansett staff lived in Sutherland Shire (Sydney) and Northern suburbs of Melbourne(Sunbury). The glut of real estate that flooded the market in these areas as unemployed staff had to sell their homes triggered a fall in average prices. Not only that, the local businesses (Tradesmen, retail, private schools, dance classes etc etc..) also suffered as ex Ansett employees could no longer afford to use their services. Many of these businesses failed.

Funny, too were how the vultures circled. I know of many Ansett staff who were suddenly, out of the blue approached by Real-Estate agencies who had cash buyers, interested in your propery, right now! Also those who had leased cars were similarly approached by car wholesalers offering a good price(2/3rds market rate ) for their vehicles. Somebody was obviously selling lists. Luckily we owned our house and had cash reserves to pay out the lease and own the car outright.

Not that PM Little Johnny or the Minister for Qantas cared; they were too busy pandering to the whims of Macquarie Bank and Mr 'Make-More-Millions'. We all saw Darth's visage on telly in 2001 and he could not wipe the smile from his face. Maybe no celebrations in the rank and file QF camp but I do recall that in this forum there were several 'bitter-and-twisteds' who were bragging about, I think the expression used was "some big parties in Brisbane this weekend" Not to mention the young and dumb staffers from another airline who came into the Ansett Sydney terminal with and attitude discribed by observers as "gloating".

I agree that failing businesses hould be allowed to fail as this allows a rationalisation of efficiencies. It also prevnts the pigs from sticking their snouts into the public trough, as happend with the US banks. Regarding Qantas and its future, I would say that political expedencies will over-ride any moral or rational imperatives. This means that the system will be manipulated one way or another until all of those on 'historic' T&Cs have left the industry. The future is that black.

Last edited by Anthill; 11th Jun 2012 at 01:08.
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Old 11th Jun 2012, 02:17
  #36 (permalink)  
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I'm going to borrow an analogy from someone else.

A rebate is the equivalent of the government stealing your wallet and then giving you back a few dollars, (from your own wallet)

A subsidy is the government taking your wallet and giving those same dollars to someone else. The terms are used interchangeably but there is a significant difference.

Apart from the bureaucracy administering this I don't see the cost to the taxpayer, other than revenue that might otherwise have been raised.
At what point is your own wallet being raided?

In some countries fuel is sold excise free at the pump and dyed to identify it, I guess to reduce admin burden and as an aid to catch fraudulent use of said fuel.
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Old 11th Jun 2012, 02:39
  #37 (permalink)  
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RU/16 I was parked along side QF in DRW in a TAA F27. I know who was there. Nobody is knocking AN, it was a great airline, it should never had what happened to it, I am the first to say that. But QF was already in the air, when AN was born, ditto TN, and QF went on to be the national carrier. That is history, and no tweaking is going to change that. Australia was lucky it had three great airlines plus some great regionals, we were very well serviced. AN gone, TN gone, the job now is to stop QF gone. Personally I would like to see all get off their arse, stop wringing their hands and wiping their brows, get all the unions together and start fighting back. If Thomson can get $500,000 out of a union for OS trips, dinners, and and shagging at knock shops, surely the unions can get together a fighting fund which can be used for ads informing the people of what is really happening. It will not be long before Aussies start to ask who is this Irish git trying to stuff up Qannas. In 89 we put it out there, we picketed, our wives picketed, ditto the kids and even the family dog turned up with a sign. (Its a joke now when you consider Victorian teachers are striking for 25% rise and nobody blinks) You can thank us for the start of enterprise bargaining but it came at a horrible price. If all you blokes are just going to keep writing about your frustrations and doing nothing, well the ship may go down, far better it go down with all on board fighting to save it. Start talking to your union about getting it out there, all of you, pilots, engineers (if there are any left) CC, ground staff, people power folks, people power. You might just turn this ship around.
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Old 11th Jun 2012, 13:33
  #38 (permalink)  
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In some countries instead of being taxed to hell and back, fuel is SUBSIDISED by the government. Example 1. Indonesia !!!!!

Australia PRODUCES and EXPORTS massive amounts of fuel and gas, yet the people in Australia pay significantly higher prices than all of their neighbours (approx 3.5 times the price as it goes), yet those same neighbours import their product !!!

Oops I where were we about aviation history and Qantas breaking up after it was amalgamated to make ...... Qantas ...... ?????
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Old 11th Jun 2012, 15:11
  #39 (permalink)  
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Tread drift...why do we pay so much for gas in western australia when we send so much O/S?
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