QF Shares hit $1.00 Discuss
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Worth What / Struggling / Woodeye (you are all one and the same it seems)
There is zero chance of Jetstar being separate listed an sold. This is because to do so would expose the actual state of the JQ groups finances and more importantly cut off the QF funding lifeline as well.
Regardless of that also, it doesnt suit Geoff Dixon's purposes either. Have a look at the ultimate owners of Orange Star holdings. Hmmmmm.
Regardless of the anti union crusade, Joyce's current plan will fail because it doesnt address three fundamental cost issues of the Qf group. Namely:
1. Qantas has the highest number of staff per airframe (143) of any carrier in the world.
2. Qantas has the highest management and administrative costs of any airline in the word (from the annual report, and an extension of point one also)
3. Specifically, many positions within this administrative and management structure are paid significantly more then their peers in Jetstar, and indeed in other 'full service / legacy' airlines.
After watching this sorry saga for the last ten years, the only conclusion I can draw is that the argument is not about costs.
Its about super sized egos, hubris and get square.
There is zero chance of Jetstar being separate listed an sold. This is because to do so would expose the actual state of the JQ groups finances and more importantly cut off the QF funding lifeline as well.
Regardless of that also, it doesnt suit Geoff Dixon's purposes either. Have a look at the ultimate owners of Orange Star holdings. Hmmmmm.
Regardless of the anti union crusade, Joyce's current plan will fail because it doesnt address three fundamental cost issues of the Qf group. Namely:
1. Qantas has the highest number of staff per airframe (143) of any carrier in the world.
2. Qantas has the highest management and administrative costs of any airline in the word (from the annual report, and an extension of point one also)
3. Specifically, many positions within this administrative and management structure are paid significantly more then their peers in Jetstar, and indeed in other 'full service / legacy' airlines.
After watching this sorry saga for the last ten years, the only conclusion I can draw is that the argument is not about costs.
Its about super sized egos, hubris and get square.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Melbourne
Age: 54
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your backhanded agreement is most gratifying Mohikan. One should always be pleased to be lumped in with esteemed company.
Yes, I support the views published by Fruet Mich and also agree with the solution Struggling has put forward.
However, that it may, as you point out -
· Expose the actual state of the JQ groups finances, and
· Doesn’t suit Geoff Dixon's purposes either.
Is no reason why long suffering shareholders should not seek to obtain value from a reorganisation of Qantas holdings that its workforce may well support?
After 10 years of observation I expect you believe there is a better way to ensure the Qantas Group can survive the ravages of fierce competition between Asian & M.E Airlines that will surely bring Qantas’ Asian & European operations to their knees if QF can’t take delivery of the 50 B787’s it needs remain competitive?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Yes, I support the views published by Fruet Mich and also agree with the solution Struggling has put forward.
However, that it may, as you point out -
· Expose the actual state of the JQ groups finances, and
· Doesn’t suit Geoff Dixon's purposes either.
Is no reason why long suffering shareholders should not seek to obtain value from a reorganisation of Qantas holdings that its workforce may well support?
After 10 years of observation I expect you believe there is a better way to ensure the Qantas Group can survive the ravages of fierce competition between Asian & M.E Airlines that will surely bring Qantas’ Asian & European operations to their knees if QF can’t take delivery of the 50 B787’s it needs remain competitive?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Last edited by WorthWhat; 30th Jun 2012 at 06:30.
There are 'whispers' the QF Balance Sheet at present shows Current Liabilities as being greater than Current Assets. Also the Current Liabilities are greater than the Shareholders Equity !.
B772, facts not bull**** is the order of the day. It's encumbent on the CEO to call in liquidators/receivers if the company is insolvent. It's not. If you know something the general share trading public don't then that would be insider trading. The traders have determined the current share price based upon current facts available to public. The rest is bull**** or insider trading.. What is it?
No secret there 772. Only have to look at the half yearly report to see that Qantas has Negative working capital. It shows a current ratio (current assets/current liabilities) of approx 0.88
Then look at Virgin. Same story but appears worse. Current ratio is approx 0.7! Shock Horror!
It doesn't mean they are insolvent.
About half the current liabilities for each is unearned revenue. That is, tickets sold but not yet travelled. That's the nature of the business and shows why Current Ratio is not a good analytical tool when looking at airlines. In fact a high unearned revenue would indicate a good thing as it reflects positive forward bookings.
Both are operationally cash flow positive, which is probably more important short term wise.
Suggest you read up on Accounting 101 before scaremongering!
Then look at Virgin. Same story but appears worse. Current ratio is approx 0.7! Shock Horror!
It doesn't mean they are insolvent.
About half the current liabilities for each is unearned revenue. That is, tickets sold but not yet travelled. That's the nature of the business and shows why Current Ratio is not a good analytical tool when looking at airlines. In fact a high unearned revenue would indicate a good thing as it reflects positive forward bookings.
Both are operationally cash flow positive, which is probably more important short term wise.
Suggest you read up on Accounting 101 before scaremongering!
Last edited by The The; 30th Jun 2012 at 15:41.
Could I be forgiven if I wonder if the Board and Management is working for the benefit of ALL shareholders, or just a select few...who might not even be shareholders at all just now?
The APA bid stank.
The APA bid stank.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: gold coast QLD australia
Age: 86
Posts: 1,345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it was Australians are into the Spirit, I would understand it, go to to any bar and there it is right in front of you. Australian's Spirit are being sorely tested by stupid taxes, open borders, incompetent pollies, crap roads, crook hospitals, and spiraling prices, and their National Carrier limping along with one of its wheels nailed to the ground. Right now the only Spirit they can find goes with ice.
Former Qantas Management Working On Qantas Bid - Report05/07/2012 10:35AM AEST
A group of wealthy individuals, including former Qantas Airways Ltd. (QAN.AU) management, is working on forming a syndicate to make an offer for the company, the Australian Financial Review reported Thursday, without saying where it got the information.
The newspaper reports that the syndicate has recently been testing lenders for debt financing. A Qantas spokeswoman declined to comment on the reports. Qantas shares were up 0.2% at A$1.10 early Thursday.
The newspaper reports that the syndicate has recently been testing lenders for debt financing. A Qantas spokeswoman declined to comment on the reports. Qantas shares were up 0.2% at A$1.10 early Thursday.
A group of wealthy individuals, including former Qantas Airways Ltd. (QAN.AU) management
Oh, that's right..............champs.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qantas Management are playing a very clever game, everybody has taken their eye off the ball. Everyone thinks all these A320 orders are going to go to Jetstar.
Have a little look at what is happening a QLink, new COO, new Chief Pilot new head of maintaince, apparently the guy who was in charge of overseeing the repair of the A380 that had all the drama's.
These people are not being positioned to run a Q400 operation, they are being positioned to expand QLink into the domestic market and reduce the mainline flying and overheads.
While also taking some flying off Jetstar, by doing this it will have a couple of effects, it will reduce the cost structure and aslo allow customers to believe they are flying with the Qantas mainline product.
It will also allow the figures that have recently come out indicating Virgin are carrying more passengers than Qantas to be retrieved from Jetstar and placed back under Qantas Domestic figures.
Mainline Domestic pilots will probably be given an option to apply to QLink and this will be the new Domestic B scale.
Watch how the game is played, all this will probably occur in the next twelve months if not sooner.
I know what the response will be, QLink will never gets Jets, they will go to Alliance or Cobham etc, just go back to the facts and look what is happening, at a very fast pace.
Have a little look at what is happening a QLink, new COO, new Chief Pilot new head of maintaince, apparently the guy who was in charge of overseeing the repair of the A380 that had all the drama's.
These people are not being positioned to run a Q400 operation, they are being positioned to expand QLink into the domestic market and reduce the mainline flying and overheads.
While also taking some flying off Jetstar, by doing this it will have a couple of effects, it will reduce the cost structure and aslo allow customers to believe they are flying with the Qantas mainline product.
It will also allow the figures that have recently come out indicating Virgin are carrying more passengers than Qantas to be retrieved from Jetstar and placed back under Qantas Domestic figures.
Mainline Domestic pilots will probably be given an option to apply to QLink and this will be the new Domestic B scale.
Watch how the game is played, all this will probably occur in the next twelve months if not sooner.
I know what the response will be, QLink will never gets Jets, they will go to Alliance or Cobham etc, just go back to the facts and look what is happening, at a very fast pace.
Last edited by teggun; 5th Jul 2012 at 03:22.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Inside their OODA loop
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qlink are getting Jets - they have already been told by Gissing et al with "we are not going to turn this into Jetstar". This makes it a double edged sword. It gives management leverage on the one hand against "internal" groups, yet on the other it gives Qlink pilots jet time in their logbook, and hence increases their employability elsewhere. From what I understand, Qlink has a relatively high turnover as it is. I note that Emirates, for instance requires Jet time. I'm not suggesting pilots will all go to Emirates, rather it gives them much more scope for alternatives than just Dash time does.
Its is also interesting that in the domestic sphere QF shorthaul, Jetstar and Virgin are very close pay wise - if one reads the contracts closely (super salary, days-off penalty, profit share & retention bonuses), . Why have Jestar & Virgin pay increased over time - especially with the JPC negotiating? Ultimately companies need to be competitive to retain pilots. As Bruce Buchanan said at the Senate Inquiry on the 6th Feb 2011, the "market price" for a Captain is US$200K. Taking tax into consideration and the high marginal rate it needs to be higher in Aus to retain crew, which is what we see domestically.
Qlink, however may be able to offer something else, perhaps lifestyle to retain pilots for reduced pay. Jetstar can only offer "flexi-lines" to the newest 10% of crew, giving them a carrot to stay for the full-time contract. Without that, most would leave quickly with sufficient hours on type.
Not saying it is of no concern, however there are nuances for both sides to consider.
Its is also interesting that in the domestic sphere QF shorthaul, Jetstar and Virgin are very close pay wise - if one reads the contracts closely (super salary, days-off penalty, profit share & retention bonuses), . Why have Jestar & Virgin pay increased over time - especially with the JPC negotiating? Ultimately companies need to be competitive to retain pilots. As Bruce Buchanan said at the Senate Inquiry on the 6th Feb 2011, the "market price" for a Captain is US$200K. Taking tax into consideration and the high marginal rate it needs to be higher in Aus to retain crew, which is what we see domestically.
Qlink, however may be able to offer something else, perhaps lifestyle to retain pilots for reduced pay. Jetstar can only offer "flexi-lines" to the newest 10% of crew, giving them a carrot to stay for the full-time contract. Without that, most would leave quickly with sufficient hours on type.
Not saying it is of no concern, however there are nuances for both sides to consider.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melborn
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qlink are getting Jets - they have already been told by Gissing et al with "we are not going to turn this into Jetstar". This makes it a double edged sword. It gives management leverage on the one hand against "internal" groups, yet on the other it gives Qlink pilots jet time in their logbook, and hence increases their employability elsewhere. From what I understand, Qlink has a relatively high turnover as it is. I note that Emirates, for instance requires Jet time. I'm not suggesting pilots will all go to Emirates, rather it gives them much more scope for alternatives than just Dash time does.
Mate, with all due respect, this has been bandied around the traps since Adam was a kid. And please tell me which jet will service DPO,LT,DBO, WG,ARM,MRB,CCY,etc etc.
QF already have NC servicing most of regional OZ with the B717, and just reintroduced the Operator into SEQ. That deal is sewn up until 2018 with a 2yr extension clause.
This is not the ideal financial climate to be introducing new types. One only needs to read the myriad of posts that are cut and pasted on this site from media releases by many carriers deferring orders at the moment.
The carrot of jet equipment has been doing the rounds for ages at SSA and EAA. One QF Regional did infact operate jets, but that was a long time ago and the climate has changed. For the life of me, I can't see it happening again.
Mate, with all due respect, this has been bandied around the traps since Adam was a kid. And please tell me which jet will service DPO,LT,DBO, WG,ARM,MRB,CCY,etc etc.
QF already have NC servicing most of regional OZ with the B717, and just reintroduced the Operator into SEQ. That deal is sewn up until 2018 with a 2yr extension clause.
This is not the ideal financial climate to be introducing new types. One only needs to read the myriad of posts that are cut and pasted on this site from media releases by many carriers deferring orders at the moment.
The carrot of jet equipment has been doing the rounds for ages at SSA and EAA. One QF Regional did infact operate jets, but that was a long time ago and the climate has changed. For the life of me, I can't see it happening again.
Last edited by Baxter Dewall; 5th Jul 2012 at 06:11.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Inside their OODA loop
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Baxter, you are correct about "since adam was boy", Qlink have had a narrowbody jet clause in the EBA since the days of Pontius.
You are also correct about deferments - however, has there been any recent developments in the Qantas group that have made sense? QF did put in an order for 110 A320's, where are they all going to go?
from the press release [my bold]:
Can they defer or are they committed to delivery without a large penalty now that the Asian premium carrier has been extinguished? Where would they send them? One obvious answer would be on routes currently served by B737's, as Jetstar did.
Just for the record, I in no way benefit from Qlink getting A320's, just the opposite.
You are also correct about deferments - however, has there been any recent developments in the Qantas group that have made sense? QF did put in an order for 110 A320's, where are they all going to go?
from the press release [my bold]:
The Group has committed to order up to 110 A320s (106 confirmed from Airbus and four additional aircraft, either purchased or leased, subject to availability). These aircraft will facilitate capacity growth across Jetstar’s domestic and international operations, the launch of Jetstar Japan and the establishment of Qantas’ new premium Asia-focused airline - while the purchase rights and options provide the Group with significant flexibility to pursue further growth opportunities on favourable commercial terms.
Just for the record, I in no way benefit from Qlink getting A320's, just the opposite.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They won't be operating jets into WG, DU, and the rest of the regional ports they will be operating into ports where Qantas Domestic operate now.
While also taking some of the Jetstar flying allowing them to operate Qantas color's back into various ports, allowing them to take pax numbers and placing them back into the monthly and yearly pax figures for Qantas Dom.
Open your eyes, lower cost structure, premium product same thing as what's happened with Jet Connect.
All the big management are moving into place, you need to remember Qantas does everything by stealth.
Everyone is too concerned about Jetstar and their not looking at the big picture.
While also taking some of the Jetstar flying allowing them to operate Qantas color's back into various ports, allowing them to take pax numbers and placing them back into the monthly and yearly pax figures for Qantas Dom.
Open your eyes, lower cost structure, premium product same thing as what's happened with Jet Connect.
All the big management are moving into place, you need to remember Qantas does everything by stealth.
Everyone is too concerned about Jetstar and their not looking at the big picture.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Alabama, then Wyoming, then Idaho and now staying with Kharon on Styx houseboat
Age: 61
Posts: 1,437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qlink are getting Jets - they have already been told by Gissing et al
with "we are not going to turn this into Jetstar".
with "we are not going to turn this into Jetstar".
Nunc est bibendum
I wonder whether that's a similar line to 'Impulse will never be more than the 10 717s they have now', or 'J* will never fly international'. It's what you tell someone to keep them happy and compliant. Are there shortages of crew at Qlink at the moment? Are guys and gals leaving for DJ? Is this a way they can keep them a bit longer? Dangle the carrot of the big shiny jet?
When they're parked on the tarmac in Qlink colours pushing back on their first revenue services with former Dash drivers in command/ F/O seats, then you can believe them. Prior to that however.......
When they're parked on the tarmac in Qlink colours pushing back on their first revenue services with former Dash drivers in command/ F/O seats, then you can believe them. Prior to that however.......
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Melbourne
Age: 60
Posts: 952
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oddly enough, during his recent roadshows J.Gissing flatly denied Qlink (Eastern and Sunnies) getting jets. IIRC, he did make the J* comment, but that wasn't in connection with jets; rather that he wouldn't be turning Qlink into Jlink.
IMHO, "Qlink are getting jets" is either wishful thinking or has come from seeing all the new managers from jet operations and adding two and two (to get five).
Again, IMHO, the reason for the bulk change in senior management at Qlink is more due to senior managers in the Qantas group realising what a complete bunch of incompetents they have "managing" what is becoming an increasingly important part of the group.
DIVOSH!
P.S. Agree with Keg: I'll believe it when there is a C-series/A319/whatever parked on B26 at YMML with an Eastern flight crew on board.
IMHO, "Qlink are getting jets" is either wishful thinking or has come from seeing all the new managers from jet operations and adding two and two (to get five).
Again, IMHO, the reason for the bulk change in senior management at Qlink is more due to senior managers in the Qantas group realising what a complete bunch of incompetents they have "managing" what is becoming an increasingly important part of the group.
DIVOSH!
P.S. Agree with Keg: I'll believe it when there is a C-series/A319/whatever parked on B26 at YMML with an Eastern flight crew on board.