Rival unions target Qantas
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Rival unions target Qantas
Rival unions target Qantas
TENSIONS between unions representing Qantas workers have erupted into open warfare, after three unions took legal action in Fair Work Australia claiming their members were subject to poaching threats by a rival union.
The dispute has pitted Australian Workers Union national secretary Paul Howes against Steve Purvinas, the federal secretary of the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association, who rose to prominence during last year's Qantas dispute.
Mr Purvinas is resisting attempts by Qantas to have aircraft maintenance engineers, who are represented by Mr Howes along with two other unions, undertake work that does not need to be signed off by licenced engineers, who are represented by Mr Purvinas.
Qantas wants to implement rules to create an "A" work licence, with holders not required to have the same level of training and specialisation as licensed engineers.
Mr Purvinas wrote to union leaders, including Mr Howes and ACTU secretary Jeff Lawrence on Saturday, accusing rival unions of being about to "cut a deal to save their (heavy maintenance) arses". He wrote that A-licence engineers were about to be employed "at our expense".
Mr Purvinas said he would seek a commitment from Mr Howes as well as the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union "that this is our work, that these persons will be covered by the ALAEA when they attain Category A Licences and that any approach by the company to negotiate an instrument to cover their employment be referred to the ALAEA".
He said if that commitment was not made by today, membership of his union would be open to maintenance engineers "to make sure our profession is not destroyed".
In a follow-up email yesterday, Mr Purvinas wrote that if rival unions "want to destroy our industry we will have to protect our members' jobs".
The AWU, the AMWU, and the electrical trades union yesterday applied to Fair Work Australia seeking orders that the ALAEA not have the right to represent members of the three unions.
Glenn Thompson, the AMWU's assistant national secretary, last night accused Mr Purvinas and his union of targeting their members.
"They are encroaching on our traditional representation of unlicenced engineers, and it's a position we are not prepared to sit idly by and accept," he said.
"We are concerned that the ALAEA has taken a position in relation to representation of our members.
"We believe it's in the interests of Qantas workers that we represent the interests of our members.
"We say that we have a new regulatory regime and that our union has a right to cover our existing members.
"We will be having discussions with Qantas on what the regulatory requirements mean for our members and their working lives."
Mr Purvinas attacked the unions over the release of the emails, saying it showed the "union movement is in such disarray that emails can't be sent without them being splashed all over the papers".
Qantas and Mr Howes declined to comment yesterday.
All australian workers have a right to join a union. The union of their choice!
- by: EWIN HANNAN
- From: The Australian
- May 01, 2012 12:00AM
TENSIONS between unions representing Qantas workers have erupted into open warfare, after three unions took legal action in Fair Work Australia claiming their members were subject to poaching threats by a rival union.
The dispute has pitted Australian Workers Union national secretary Paul Howes against Steve Purvinas, the federal secretary of the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association, who rose to prominence during last year's Qantas dispute.
Mr Purvinas is resisting attempts by Qantas to have aircraft maintenance engineers, who are represented by Mr Howes along with two other unions, undertake work that does not need to be signed off by licenced engineers, who are represented by Mr Purvinas.
Qantas wants to implement rules to create an "A" work licence, with holders not required to have the same level of training and specialisation as licensed engineers.
Mr Purvinas wrote to union leaders, including Mr Howes and ACTU secretary Jeff Lawrence on Saturday, accusing rival unions of being about to "cut a deal to save their (heavy maintenance) arses". He wrote that A-licence engineers were about to be employed "at our expense".
Mr Purvinas said he would seek a commitment from Mr Howes as well as the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union "that this is our work, that these persons will be covered by the ALAEA when they attain Category A Licences and that any approach by the company to negotiate an instrument to cover their employment be referred to the ALAEA".
He said if that commitment was not made by today, membership of his union would be open to maintenance engineers "to make sure our profession is not destroyed".
In a follow-up email yesterday, Mr Purvinas wrote that if rival unions "want to destroy our industry we will have to protect our members' jobs".
The AWU, the AMWU, and the electrical trades union yesterday applied to Fair Work Australia seeking orders that the ALAEA not have the right to represent members of the three unions.
Glenn Thompson, the AMWU's assistant national secretary, last night accused Mr Purvinas and his union of targeting their members.
"They are encroaching on our traditional representation of unlicenced engineers, and it's a position we are not prepared to sit idly by and accept," he said.
"We are concerned that the ALAEA has taken a position in relation to representation of our members.
"We believe it's in the interests of Qantas workers that we represent the interests of our members.
"We say that we have a new regulatory regime and that our union has a right to cover our existing members.
"We will be having discussions with Qantas on what the regulatory requirements mean for our members and their working lives."
Mr Purvinas attacked the unions over the release of the emails, saying it showed the "union movement is in such disarray that emails can't be sent without them being splashed all over the papers".
Qantas and Mr Howes declined to comment yesterday.
All australian workers have a right to join a union. The union of their choice!
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The AWU and AMWU have done nothing to save the jobs of AMEs at Qantas.
They have done such a good job as today's headline shows.
As an AME,the AWU did nothing but lose me money, by collecting my dues and under representing me when the time came, and voting on my behalf against my wishes.The ALAEA is the most democratic of any union representing the engineers at Qantas, both licenced and unlicenced.
The AWU and AMWU are far more concerned about getting the upper echelon preselected to safe Labor seats,than the welfare of their aviation members.
The ALAEA should be representing ALL engineers in aviation, as these other clowns have no real interest except for their inclusion to Qantas Club and seat upgrades.
They have done such a good job as today's headline shows.
As an AME,the AWU did nothing but lose me money, by collecting my dues and under representing me when the time came, and voting on my behalf against my wishes.The ALAEA is the most democratic of any union representing the engineers at Qantas, both licenced and unlicenced.
The AWU and AMWU are far more concerned about getting the upper echelon preselected to safe Labor seats,than the welfare of their aviation members.
The ALAEA should be representing ALL engineers in aviation, as these other clowns have no real interest except for their inclusion to Qantas Club and seat upgrades.
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And when they become "A licence" engineers they should be allowed to join the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association. Just as they would have by getting a normal licence.
The gall of the AWU/AMWU declaring ownership over people. It's the other way around. There is such a thing called freedom of association. This is exactly what is wrong with the old school unionists, the sense of utter entitlement and the lengths they will go to, to prevent their power base being taken away.
All I know is, the ALAEA never introduced A and B scales and the ALAEA never had a platform of negotiating based upon what the metals union got. It's always been the other way around.
I love how they have spun their position. They argue the ALAEA shouldn't represent someone with an 'A' LICENCE.
hear hear. disgraceful.
All I know is, the ALAEA never introduced A and B scales and the ALAEA never had a platform of negotiating based upon what the metals union got. It's always been the other way around.
I love how they have spun their position. They argue the ALAEA shouldn't represent someone with an 'A' LICENCE.
"union movement is in such disarray that emails can't be sent without them being splashed all over the papers".
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I have so much to say here but can't. The AMWU and AWU would send it straight to the press and make it a story for tomorrow's paper like they did the emails I sent them yesterday.
It is this behaviour that has f****d the Labor party.
It is this behaviour that has f****d the Labor party.
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It might be prudent to note that the article originated in the Australian, a media outlet which is focussed on destroying unionism and the Labor Party.
Don't know if it is still the case, but the ALAEA's constitution originally excluded all engineers except LAME's.
Don't know if it is still the case, but the ALAEA's constitution originally excluded all engineers except LAME's.
Whispering "T" Jet
Joyce will be loving this.
First employee against employee, now union against union - beautiful. The Fat man, Murdoch and Hawke tried this in '89, looks like they were 23 years too early.
First employee against employee, now union against union - beautiful. The Fat man, Murdoch and Hawke tried this in '89, looks like they were 23 years too early.
Last edited by 3 Holer; 1st May 2012 at 09:53. Reason: Lisa jogged my memory about another combatant!
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Unions do a huge amount of good in our society which puts the dollar before all else. The rocks in Sydney would be a car park if not for the hard work of the Buildings labourers federation in the 60 s . Australian unions have done a lot of positive things in addressing social inequality.
But unions are run by people, and some people will allow themselves to be corrupted by power. This does not mean unions are corrupt, it just shows human nature at its worst can impact on any organisation.
The CEO s of large corporations will definitely be delighting and rubbing their hands with glee at this.
Can I be so bold As to point out that the Australian newspaper - which is shown above as the link to this story - is owned by Murdoch. That seems quite interesting to me as far as supporting democracy goes. Jealousy can occur as far as people not holding the power wanting to take it away from those with power. Power struggles are often difficult to understand from the outside looking in.
But unions are run by people, and some people will allow themselves to be corrupted by power. This does not mean unions are corrupt, it just shows human nature at its worst can impact on any organisation.
The CEO s of large corporations will definitely be delighting and rubbing their hands with glee at this.
Can I be so bold As to point out that the Australian newspaper - which is shown above as the link to this story - is owned by Murdoch. That seems quite interesting to me as far as supporting democracy goes. Jealousy can occur as far as people not holding the power wanting to take it away from those with power. Power struggles are often difficult to understand from the outside looking in.
Last edited by LHLisa; 1st May 2012 at 08:36.
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If you know your Union history, you will know that the ALAEA was born out of the AEU , ASE and ETU who represented LAME's until the ALAEA was bornout of the employers . The ALAEA was a bosses Union to break the power of the militant Unions in the 60's. How ironic, that the bosses are now using those Unions they coluded against back then, to bust their love child . Ah the irony of it all 
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+1 ALAEA Fed Sec. 
Maybe you should send them a few false leads...
Agreed. Very uncool.
Also agreed. That's the main reason for not spraying them all over the media.
Maybe you should send them a few false leads...
The CEO s of large corporations will definitely be delighting and rubbing their hands with glee at this.
Power struggles are often difficult to understand from the outside looking in.
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Nazi state
Labor has killed the Unions. While Gillard and friends think of their own agenda and are too buy getting involved in dick swinging competitions the rest of the world slips by them and so does the only vestige of protecting workers rights - Unions. What has escalated the decline in the Unions power base are the turncoats like Shorten and co as well as a political party that has lost it's testicles. The Grim Reaper has made his call an Labor is dead. Within 12 months these incompetents will receive their recompense and receive the same treatment that Anna Bligh and her pathetic weasels reaped.
The worse thing is that Ol Slugger only has to sit back, run a few marathons and enjoy the show. No campaign required this election - Labor have killed themselves, Liberals have it in the bag, and back comes Work Choices and probably 3 terms of Liberal power and the end of Unions.
Considering I am a Labor supporter traditionally it doesn't get any worse than the current situation, does it or could it? Oh I forgot, Thomson, Slipper and a red haired retarded speaking Welsh PM with a male hairdresser partner, yeah how did I miss that.
As for the QF Union debate, the only Union to not bend over for the mighty Roo was the one that didn't support 'Scale A and Scale B'. You got it ALAEA.
Now, a word of warning Alan, dont rub your pudgy little hands yet. Look around, it's not just the Unions imploding, so is society, large corporations, governments and continents. So before you jump for joy over Union infighting remember this - If it comes down to a fight to the death be sure that nobody escapes unharmed. Blood (figuratively) will be spilled on a larger scale than seen before, that you can be assured.
The worse thing is that Ol Slugger only has to sit back, run a few marathons and enjoy the show. No campaign required this election - Labor have killed themselves, Liberals have it in the bag, and back comes Work Choices and probably 3 terms of Liberal power and the end of Unions.
Considering I am a Labor supporter traditionally it doesn't get any worse than the current situation, does it or could it? Oh I forgot, Thomson, Slipper and a red haired retarded speaking Welsh PM with a male hairdresser partner, yeah how did I miss that.
As for the QF Union debate, the only Union to not bend over for the mighty Roo was the one that didn't support 'Scale A and Scale B'. You got it ALAEA.
Now, a word of warning Alan, dont rub your pudgy little hands yet. Look around, it's not just the Unions imploding, so is society, large corporations, governments and continents. So before you jump for joy over Union infighting remember this - If it comes down to a fight to the death be sure that nobody escapes unharmed. Blood (figuratively) will be spilled on a larger scale than seen before, that you can be assured.
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Unions, Murder, Thugs and an Heiress
In July 1975 heiress publisher and community activist / union collaborator Juanita Neilson was kidnapped and murdered. Property developers were believed to be responsible for her murder yet no one was ever charged. Nielsen had been successful in her campaign with the unions to stop developers in inner Sydney "destroying" inner city areas. Juanita Neilsen realised she might be in danger in the lead up to her murder.
In 1973 Arthur King, a member of Sydney Push, campaigned along with the BLF Union against property developers wanting to demolish his Sydney neighbourhood. He was kidnapped. A V Jennings was involved, and wanted to use strike breakers against the BLF Union.
Developers wanted to turn Sydney's Botanical Gardens into a car park for the Opera house.
During this period of Australian history police were charged with corruption, as were union leaders. Does this mean that all police And union officials are bad? I don't think it does. These are complex issues. The idea of a society without police and unions terrifies me. Cabin Crew moderators on this website in the cabin crew section have locked me out of the thread I started there on Seniority. This does not mean that all PPrune moderators are fascists.
In 1973 Arthur King, a member of Sydney Push, campaigned along with the BLF Union against property developers wanting to demolish his Sydney neighbourhood. He was kidnapped. A V Jennings was involved, and wanted to use strike breakers against the BLF Union.
Developers wanted to turn Sydney's Botanical Gardens into a car park for the Opera house.
During this period of Australian history police were charged with corruption, as were union leaders. Does this mean that all police And union officials are bad? I don't think it does. These are complex issues. The idea of a society without police and unions terrifies me. Cabin Crew moderators on this website in the cabin crew section have locked me out of the thread I started there on Seniority. This does not mean that all PPrune moderators are fascists.
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LHLisa, what about when the shoe is on the other foot, are you forgetting the American Jimmy Hoffa?
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Guys Qantas has orchestrated this one completely along with their buddies in CASA, the ACTU and a couple of unions. We have expected it though.
About unions. There are so many hard working, genuine and caring union officials battling all across our country to make things better for working Aussies. There is another element who think the organisation they work for is their own personal vehicle for promotion or wages far beyond their qualifications. It's the things this second group do that disappoint so many members who resign and never come back.
I've always said that 99% of the people in unions are not interested in taking on a leadership or representative role which is fine. Of the 1% that do only half of them do it for the right reason. All the elected members of our Executive come out of that mould.
The next Federal Election is going to be a farce.
About unions. There are so many hard working, genuine and caring union officials battling all across our country to make things better for working Aussies. There is another element who think the organisation they work for is their own personal vehicle for promotion or wages far beyond their qualifications. It's the things this second group do that disappoint so many members who resign and never come back.
I've always said that 99% of the people in unions are not interested in taking on a leadership or representative role which is fine. Of the 1% that do only half of them do it for the right reason. All the elected members of our Executive come out of that mould.
The next Federal Election is going to be a farce.
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I have never heard of Jimmy and will look it up. I do understand why a lot of people feel disenchanted by the political pArty that is meant to support the working class. But I do believe they are doing their best.
In a world where the Clive palmers and Gina Rheinharts have almost unlimited budgets to supports their causes and chosen political parties the Labor party is stuck between a rock and a hard place. I believe that Julia Gillard has been subjected to extra scrutiny because of her gender. Male politicians are allowed to try to do each other out of a job no questions asked. But because PM Gillard is female she has been subjected to unreasonably harsh critical for doing what is normal in politics.
Male politicians are not denigrated for their relationship status or choice of jacket or hair style. For gods sake Tony Abbot can wear speedo s on national television and still be treated with respect and dignity. Double standards?
The Labor movement is brave and forward thinking for electing a female leader. It is a shame that the electorate is having such a hard time coping with equality.
Saying that the labor party has lost its testicles is incorrect in my humble opinion.
The labor party are attempting to introduce massive reforms in the form of a mining tax and carbon tax. These tax s will help the little people in the long run , but this is hard to see in a 24 hour news cycle environment.
The Nazi party rose to power after Germany was subjected to unfair policies after world war one. Greek working class people are currently being treated terribly , due to the negligence of their politicians. Nazi state definitely does not apply to Australia. But Our Tibetan and European neighbours feeling like their only choice is self immolation ? Yeah , it's a really bad situation.
In a world where the Clive palmers and Gina Rheinharts have almost unlimited budgets to supports their causes and chosen political parties the Labor party is stuck between a rock and a hard place. I believe that Julia Gillard has been subjected to extra scrutiny because of her gender. Male politicians are allowed to try to do each other out of a job no questions asked. But because PM Gillard is female she has been subjected to unreasonably harsh critical for doing what is normal in politics.
Male politicians are not denigrated for their relationship status or choice of jacket or hair style. For gods sake Tony Abbot can wear speedo s on national television and still be treated with respect and dignity. Double standards?
The Labor movement is brave and forward thinking for electing a female leader. It is a shame that the electorate is having such a hard time coping with equality.
Saying that the labor party has lost its testicles is incorrect in my humble opinion.
The labor party are attempting to introduce massive reforms in the form of a mining tax and carbon tax. These tax s will help the little people in the long run , but this is hard to see in a 24 hour news cycle environment.
The Nazi party rose to power after Germany was subjected to unfair policies after world war one. Greek working class people are currently being treated terribly , due to the negligence of their politicians. Nazi state definitely does not apply to Australia. But Our Tibetan and European neighbours feeling like their only choice is self immolation ? Yeah , it's a really bad situation.
Last edited by LHLisa; 1st May 2012 at 12:27.
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A lot of male voters are critical of PM Gillard.
Stating she and her mates are doing a crap job is factually incorrect in my opinion.
The world is in what could be described as a state of turmoil.
Unchecked capitalism - encouraged and bought about in large part by type A personality egomaniacal foolishness- has in part led to the world being in a precarious state. Men, not red heds , largely brought about the GFC. This does not mean I do not like men , they are great to cuddle, nor does it mean I would never vote for one.
But hey. I am just a woman , my opinion is not worth that much is it?
It does concern me that unbiased media reporting on a range of important topics is hard to come be . Whether it be about unions , politicians, and a range of topics it seems money talks when it comes to the passing of information onto us, the unclean masses.
Stating she and her mates are doing a crap job is factually incorrect in my opinion.
The world is in what could be described as a state of turmoil.
Unchecked capitalism - encouraged and bought about in large part by type A personality egomaniacal foolishness- has in part led to the world being in a precarious state. Men, not red heds , largely brought about the GFC. This does not mean I do not like men , they are great to cuddle, nor does it mean I would never vote for one.
But hey. I am just a woman , my opinion is not worth that much is it?
It does concern me that unbiased media reporting on a range of important topics is hard to come be . Whether it be about unions , politicians, and a range of topics it seems money talks when it comes to the passing of information onto us, the unclean masses.
Last edited by LHLisa; 1st May 2012 at 14:37.
LHLisa:
Your opinion is coloured by the fact that Gillard is female.
Let me tell you Lisa, in this "equal" world, women have as much right to be rotten leaders as men. The worst boss I ever had was a woman - rotten corrupt, liar, manipulator, bully and totally inept and dishonest to boot. She got where she was by being a member of the Margaret Whitlam "Old Girls Club" - which is full of lethally bad managers, and more are on the way.
The problem in its narrowest sense is that Gillard is the best of a rotten mob. The elected officials of that party have never been "on the tools" - they are all university educated former lawyers or union officials. They are exactly the same type of "born to rule" bastards that used to infect the Liberal Party.
To put that another way, genuine Labor representatives wouldn't be seen dead in the Qantas Chairmans lounge, let alone wearing an Italian suit.
To put that yet another way, how many more Thompsons and WIlliamsons infect the Labor party? How many more millionaires mates are there? How many more are there that cosy up to property developers and screw the people who trusted them? How many more leave parliament to start working for billionaires, taking Six figure salaries to screw the workers some more?
Gillard is a "Process Person", not a leader. In her world, if you do things the right way, you automatically get a good result. The trouble is that "process" doesn't work when you are trying to build on sand, and use **** for concrete, no matter how elegant the architects design looks.
Qantas is going to turn to **** if it hasn't already. The business model of Qantas and every other major Australian corporation is to outsource production and delivery of everything to the cheapest providers in the world - wherever they are - currently Asia, and destroy the Australian working class in the process.
My sources predict that "globalisation" is going to fall in a heap in 2013 because the European and AMerican workforces are going to rebel.
My own view is that if the Australian dollar needs to be at 0.75 for Australian manufacturing to be competitive, then close the &*^%ing mines until the dollar gets there and stick Rhinehart, Palmer, Forrest and the rest of the billionaires club in jail if they object. Believe me, those folks have plans for YOU and your kids, and they are not nice.
A lot of male voters are critical of PM Gillard.
Stating she and her mates are doing a crap job is factually incorrect in my opinion.
The world is in what could be described as a state of turmoil.
Unchecked capitalism - encouraged and bought about in large part by type A personality egomaniacal foolishness- has in part led to the world being in a precarious state. Men, not red heds , largely brought about the GFC. This does not mean I do not like men , they are great to cuddle, nor does it mean I would never vote for one.
But hey. I am just a woman , my opinion is not worth that much is it?
It does concern me that unbiased media reporting on a range of important topics is hard to come be . Whether it be about unions , politicians, and a range of topics it seems money talks when it comes to the passing of information onto us, the unclean masses.
Stating she and her mates are doing a crap job is factually incorrect in my opinion.
The world is in what could be described as a state of turmoil.
Unchecked capitalism - encouraged and bought about in large part by type A personality egomaniacal foolishness- has in part led to the world being in a precarious state. Men, not red heds , largely brought about the GFC. This does not mean I do not like men , they are great to cuddle, nor does it mean I would never vote for one.
But hey. I am just a woman , my opinion is not worth that much is it?
It does concern me that unbiased media reporting on a range of important topics is hard to come be . Whether it be about unions , politicians, and a range of topics it seems money talks when it comes to the passing of information onto us, the unclean masses.
Let me tell you Lisa, in this "equal" world, women have as much right to be rotten leaders as men. The worst boss I ever had was a woman - rotten corrupt, liar, manipulator, bully and totally inept and dishonest to boot. She got where she was by being a member of the Margaret Whitlam "Old Girls Club" - which is full of lethally bad managers, and more are on the way.
The problem in its narrowest sense is that Gillard is the best of a rotten mob. The elected officials of that party have never been "on the tools" - they are all university educated former lawyers or union officials. They are exactly the same type of "born to rule" bastards that used to infect the Liberal Party.
To put that another way, genuine Labor representatives wouldn't be seen dead in the Qantas Chairmans lounge, let alone wearing an Italian suit.
To put that yet another way, how many more Thompsons and WIlliamsons infect the Labor party? How many more millionaires mates are there? How many more are there that cosy up to property developers and screw the people who trusted them? How many more leave parliament to start working for billionaires, taking Six figure salaries to screw the workers some more?
Gillard is a "Process Person", not a leader. In her world, if you do things the right way, you automatically get a good result. The trouble is that "process" doesn't work when you are trying to build on sand, and use **** for concrete, no matter how elegant the architects design looks.
Qantas is going to turn to **** if it hasn't already. The business model of Qantas and every other major Australian corporation is to outsource production and delivery of everything to the cheapest providers in the world - wherever they are - currently Asia, and destroy the Australian working class in the process.
My sources predict that "globalisation" is going to fall in a heap in 2013 because the European and AMerican workforces are going to rebel.
My own view is that if the Australian dollar needs to be at 0.75 for Australian manufacturing to be competitive, then close the &*^%ing mines until the dollar gets there and stick Rhinehart, Palmer, Forrest and the rest of the billionaires club in jail if they object. Believe me, those folks have plans for YOU and your kids, and they are not nice.
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Qantas have made their mind up already that they don't want/can't afford engineering excellence. What Howes and co. will learn if they are intact about to do a deal over A cat licensing, is that the AME's will not get them, they are to expensive as well. You only need 2 years industry experience and not even a trade certificate basic qualifications. So the guy signing your rts and applying your Mel's if an A cat will know nothing and most probably not even have any basic training, only what qf have shown them parrot fashion in a quick class room session.
The AWU AMWU and ETU will get burned, only by codeifying A cat as a stepping stone and career path to a full B cat licence through industrial instrument will add value and only the ALAEA can do that.
The AWU AMWU and ETU will get burned, only by codeifying A cat as a stepping stone and career path to a full B cat licence through industrial instrument will add value and only the ALAEA can do that.