Swiss Cheese ASA Style
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Fatigue factor ??
Out of simple curiosity and interest, how many 'crew' should there be; in an ideal, sane world.
Never thought about it much, but there must be a 'minimum' sort of roster, variable I guess but if we are chronically short on a regular basis, then it's a real worry. The troops may conceivably carry the odd shortage, Bloggs falls of push bike on the way to work, Jones has flu and Smith went to bucks party etc. so there are some holes to plug, but this must raise the issue of fatigue.
It's probably fine to cover the odd shortage, but on a regular basis? – I wonder how many are operating below par, simply because they're knackered.
Much is made of pilot, flight attendant, truck drivers etc time on duty, have the ATS troops got such a thing??.
Never thought about it much, but there must be a 'minimum' sort of roster, variable I guess but if we are chronically short on a regular basis, then it's a real worry. The troops may conceivably carry the odd shortage, Bloggs falls of push bike on the way to work, Jones has flu and Smith went to bucks party etc. so there are some holes to plug, but this must raise the issue of fatigue.
It's probably fine to cover the odd shortage, but on a regular basis? – I wonder how many are operating below par, simply because they're knackered.
Much is made of pilot, flight attendant, truck drivers etc time on duty, have the ATS troops got such a thing??.
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Kharon - ASA has a "robust fatigue management system" 
, but there are only 3 rules that are inviolate when it comes to overtime. 10 hour maximum shift, minimum 8 hours off between shifts and maximum 10 shifts without a day off (day off being 30 hours including midnight to midnight). Everything else is about mitigating fatigue risks, rather than avoiding it. We actually have some shifts where the official advice is to "nap on breaks", and probably like any fatigue management system, there is no such thing as too tired to work.
I think ASA management realised their mistake a few years ago, even if they never admitted it. The college has been recruiting and training people as fast as it can for some time, it's just not fast enough.
PS Scarily enough, the 10/8/10 rules are part of ATC employment conditions, not fatigue management, and so are up for grabs in the CA negotiations.
, but there are only 3 rules that are inviolate when it comes to overtime. 10 hour maximum shift, minimum 8 hours off between shifts and maximum 10 shifts without a day off (day off being 30 hours including midnight to midnight). Everything else is about mitigating fatigue risks, rather than avoiding it. We actually have some shifts where the official advice is to "nap on breaks", and probably like any fatigue management system, there is no such thing as too tired to work.I think ASA management realised their mistake a few years ago, even if they never admitted it. The college has been recruiting and training people as fast as it can for some time, it's just not fast enough.
PS Scarily enough, the 10/8/10 rules are part of ATC employment conditions, not fatigue management, and so are up for grabs in the CA negotiations.
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PS Scarily enough, the 10/8/10 rules are part of ATC employment conditions, not fatigue management, and so are up for grabs in the CA negotiations.
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FRMS
NB- Everything else is about mitigating fatigue risks, rather than avoiding it.
I've often wondered about how you make an individually tailored 'fatigue plan' to suit the individual, would it becomes very complex and very quickly subject to open ended abuse?.
It intrigues me though, some guys can fly night shift and do well, then collapse in a heap on a change to day roster, others (me included) can go all day or night but, get held up or have to wait about a few hours and exhaustion sets in.
Quokka - and have not been derived from established knowledge of consciousness and sleep psychology
But it would be nice to know that this hole in the famous cheese was plugged up and could never be an element in the unthinkable.
Last edited by Kharon; 12th Apr 2012 at 04:41. Reason: forgot a bit
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In a sense there is an individual fatigue plan, if you are tired don't go to work. If this means going sick or declining overtime then so be it. It is open to abuse (very workplace has one), and if you are going sick once a week due fatigue the I think its reasonable for management to suggest this job isn't for you. Conversely there is also usually someone who will grab every scrap of overtime they can get, often going sick on rostered shifts as a result.
Which circles back nicely to the original cause of the TRA, if its anything like the group I'm in. A roster that provides barely enough staff at any given time and not enough staff to actually fill that roster so the buffer provided by overtime is often already used up.
Those rules are over 20 years old so probably predate most research. However, they provide more protection than FRMS2 (ASA's current system).
With regards to the "black list", in my darker moments I wonder if its "pour encourager les autres" as much as to punish deserters.
Which circles back nicely to the original cause of the TRA, if its anything like the group I'm in. A roster that provides barely enough staff at any given time and not enough staff to actually fill that roster so the buffer provided by overtime is often already used up.
...and have not been derived from established knowledge of consciousness and sleep psychology
With regards to the "black list", in my darker moments I wonder if its "pour encourager les autres" as much as to punish deserters.
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The ASA yes men are ONLY interested in "service continuity" - screw everything else. Gotta keep Albo happy so he can continue delaying the YSSY 2nd airport decision.....
Greg & Co have torn the guts out of the operational side of ATC. Tripled middle management with a flawed management restructure a few years back - never recovered. Wanted to make them more accountable for Admin duties among others. All under the guise of reducing admin staff, however as has been highlighted in an earlier post the hangers-on in Canberra are breeding at an exponential rate. Hell rumours are that they need a 1 (yes ONE) day course in moving from one floor to the next in the same building!!!
No questions, no investigations - just more band aids. Controllers are being compromised by this structure and the continued denial of the current problems - never mind the problems looming on the resource horizon.
They have re-jigged the measurement of staff numbers so as to justify the existing shortfall - the old "hire the consultant that gives you the answer you want" management theory.
NO, I REPEAT NO frontline controllers go to work wanting a front page BOS incident. They are being let down by an inept management that is living in denial and continues to use bigger and bigger whips so that everyone jumps as ordered.
Big tip of the hat to Ben Sandilands and Co for continuing to pursue this story and I hope that he can expose the truth before some poor overworked, under appreciated, under paid controller has a REALLY bad day.
Keep asking the questions!!
Greg & Co have torn the guts out of the operational side of ATC. Tripled middle management with a flawed management restructure a few years back - never recovered. Wanted to make them more accountable for Admin duties among others. All under the guise of reducing admin staff, however as has been highlighted in an earlier post the hangers-on in Canberra are breeding at an exponential rate. Hell rumours are that they need a 1 (yes ONE) day course in moving from one floor to the next in the same building!!!
No questions, no investigations - just more band aids. Controllers are being compromised by this structure and the continued denial of the current problems - never mind the problems looming on the resource horizon.
They have re-jigged the measurement of staff numbers so as to justify the existing shortfall - the old "hire the consultant that gives you the answer you want" management theory.
NO, I REPEAT NO frontline controllers go to work wanting a front page BOS incident. They are being let down by an inept management that is living in denial and continues to use bigger and bigger whips so that everyone jumps as ordered.
Big tip of the hat to Ben Sandilands and Co for continuing to pursue this story and I hope that he can expose the truth before some poor overworked, under appreciated, under paid controller has a REALLY bad day.
Keep asking the questions!!
Big tip of the hat to Ben Sandilands and Co for continuing to pursue this story and I hope that he can expose the truth before some poor overworked, under appreciated, under paid controller has a REALLY bad day.
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Pure undiluted self interest
I do apologise for a lack of knowledge here, but in my own defence “we” (the lads) the pilot body always thought it was not a bad 'gig' on the ATS side of things. Not so ?, apparently.
There is (or was) a very strong union which, we believed by protecting their 'troops' were protecting 'us' in Australian skies. I, for one am always bloody pleased to be back 'in home waters', even Darwin has made me smile and feel better about things overall (after Ujung on HF). There has always been a feeling of 'Great – now we can relax'.
Look, I could dance about the daisy's all day here but; there is really only one question. Despite the best efforts of our dedicated, esteemed colleagues in the ATS are our skies as safe as we suppose them to be ?.
I don't mean in some fluffy, woozy, bean counter, PC sort of way. I mean 'fair dinkum'. Tales of Bullying, overtime, massive, unrealistic compliance expectations, under staffed, under trained, experienced people ignored; and, run by people who, it seems wouldn't know how to do anything but use a company credit card. Well – it's all starting to look a bit grim, ain't it.
If there is a problem, or even a hint of a problem, surely the travelling public and the aircrews need to know. Even if only in the spirit of 'advice'. “Your government can longer guarantee your safety in the sovereign airspace it controls”. TRUE/ FALSE.
I believe 'we' should know.
Selah.
There is (or was) a very strong union which, we believed by protecting their 'troops' were protecting 'us' in Australian skies. I, for one am always bloody pleased to be back 'in home waters', even Darwin has made me smile and feel better about things overall (after Ujung on HF). There has always been a feeling of 'Great – now we can relax'.
Look, I could dance about the daisy's all day here but; there is really only one question. Despite the best efforts of our dedicated, esteemed colleagues in the ATS are our skies as safe as we suppose them to be ?.
I don't mean in some fluffy, woozy, bean counter, PC sort of way. I mean 'fair dinkum'. Tales of Bullying, overtime, massive, unrealistic compliance expectations, under staffed, under trained, experienced people ignored; and, run by people who, it seems wouldn't know how to do anything but use a company credit card. Well – it's all starting to look a bit grim, ain't it.
If there is a problem, or even a hint of a problem, surely the travelling public and the aircrews need to know. Even if only in the spirit of 'advice'. “Your government can longer guarantee your safety in the sovereign airspace it controls”. TRUE/ FALSE.
I believe 'we' should know.
Selah.
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I don't get it.....
Could anyone please tell me if the following reply at the bottom of the post on Crikey is serious or sarcastic? I really am not sure how to take it. Honestly, I can't seem to sort it out. I really hope it is sarcastic though, then the reply would make sense.
"dnsmax": Is that you direct.no.speed? Please PM me.
dnsmax
Posted April 9, 2012 at 4:43 pm | Permalink
Cmon Ben,
Everyone knows that Airservices is not short of controllers. The CEO has said so on many occassions. Hell, there is a whole bunch of press releases going back years calling the controller renegades. If they were short they would have taken the controllers union to Fair Work Australia to ensure that they work overtime and threaten them if they could not provide a reason why they forfeited a day off. Hell, if they were short, controllers would be called 2,3 even four times a day on their days off to come to work. Controllers would probably even be turning off their phones. And Airservices is involved in a massive restructure of the airspace requiring huge amounts of training for unknown gain – this simply could not happen if Airservices were short of controllers.
I don’t know where you get your information from Ben. Cmon! Airservices are definitely not short of controllers.
"dnsmax": Is that you direct.no.speed? Please PM me.
dnsmax
Posted April 9, 2012 at 4:43 pm | Permalink
Cmon Ben,
Everyone knows that Airservices is not short of controllers. The CEO has said so on many occassions. Hell, there is a whole bunch of press releases going back years calling the controller renegades. If they were short they would have taken the controllers union to Fair Work Australia to ensure that they work overtime and threaten them if they could not provide a reason why they forfeited a day off. Hell, if they were short, controllers would be called 2,3 even four times a day on their days off to come to work. Controllers would probably even be turning off their phones. And Airservices is involved in a massive restructure of the airspace requiring huge amounts of training for unknown gain – this simply could not happen if Airservices were short of controllers.
I don’t know where you get your information from Ben. Cmon! Airservices are definitely not short of controllers.
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What you said here...
Tales of Bullying, overtime, massive, unrealistic compliance expectations, under staffed, under trained, experienced people ignored; and, run by people who, it seems wouldn't know how to do anything but use a company credit card.
Is a nice little summary of some of the major issues.
I haven't worked there for a long time now but I still say with no hesitation that you are safe in Australian skies. Some of the 'minor' stuff which is considered 'unsafe' and dealt with in such a serious manner by ASA, would be simply overlooked in a 'lets get on with it' approach in many other countries.
The Australian ATC system is robust and thorough for all its faults - maybe less so than 5 or so years ago though as there are more holes in the swiss cheese layers than before. But I personally would feel 100% safe travelling and flying there.
Tales of Bullying, overtime, massive, unrealistic compliance expectations, under staffed, under trained, experienced people ignored; and, run by people who, it seems wouldn't know how to do anything but use a company credit card.
Is a nice little summary of some of the major issues.
I haven't worked there for a long time now but I still say with no hesitation that you are safe in Australian skies. Some of the 'minor' stuff which is considered 'unsafe' and dealt with in such a serious manner by ASA, would be simply overlooked in a 'lets get on with it' approach in many other countries.
The Australian ATC system is robust and thorough for all its faults - maybe less so than 5 or so years ago though as there are more holes in the swiss cheese layers than before. But I personally would feel 100% safe travelling and flying there.
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Unsafe skies for all?
Quokka + Caribbean = ASA CEO!! Enjoy the 'work trip' Greg!
Last edited by gobbledock; 12th Apr 2012 at 12:06. Reason: Looking for pictures of Carribean beauties on Google
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OK then
Baileys - The Australian ATC system is robust and thorough for all its faults - maybe less so than 5 or so years ago though as there are more holes in the swiss cheese layers than before. But I personally would feel 100% safe travelling and flying there.
I only got here yesterday, wasn't born then.
.
Everyone knows that Airservices is not short of controllers. The CEO has said so on many occassions. Hell, there is a whole bunch of press releases going back years calling the controller renegades. If they were short they would have taken the controllers union to Fair Work Australia to ensure that they work overtime and threaten them if they could not provide a reason why they forfeited a day off. Hell, if they were short, controllers would be called 2,3 even four times a day on their days off to come to work. Controllers would probably even be turning off their phones. And Airservices is involved in a massive restructure of the airspace requiring huge amounts of training for unknown gain – this simply could not happen if Airservices were short of controllers.
I don’t know where you get your information from Ben. Cmon! Airservices are definitely not short of controllers.
I don’t know where you get your information from Ben. Cmon! Airservices are definitely not short of controllers.
More staff would enable the update of training programs, more staff would permit accrued annual leave and long service leave to be taken, more staff would enable operational ATCs to be released to the college to train the new recruits (rather than rely on retired ATCs, not that there's anything wrong with that...), more staff would enable more services to be provided (think Port Hedland, Wagga, Taree, Emerald), more staff would see an effective fatigue/staff management that doesn't rely on staff being called on their days off to fill a hole in a roster, more staff would enable direct operational input into the future ATC system (does it have a name yet)?
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Quokka + Caribbean = ASA CEO!! Enjoy the 'work trip' Greg!
...and give him a run for his money.Sorry... that should read... the aviation industry's money.
Only 3rd hand, but .... recently heard that, after an internal review at the ATC Training College, it was decided not to employ more "blip drivers" (who drive the simulated aircraft in the ATC simulator) to fill the current shortage ... but to create 10 new Management Positions in the College.
Don't know the rationale behind it, but, on the surface, it seems to be a packet of poo
Don't know the rationale behind it, but, on the surface, it seems to be a packet of poo
Yeah, the internal review of the training college has resulted in the appointment of a new GM (like they need any more) who's grand total of training knowledge, pretty much = 0
I look forward to the seeing the improvement...
I look forward to the seeing the improvement...