QANTAS - WHERE TO NOW?
They won't simply be given slots in mainline for the same reason ex-Ansett pilots who flew mainline aircraft as contractors were still required to go through the Stage 1 testing and interviews. No one gets into mainline without being screened. It's not a criticism of the process, just the way it's done.
Last edited by Lookleft; 11th Oct 2012 at 01:17.
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Let me make it clear in case my previous posts are misunderstood. I am not happy that people may lose jobs. Not at all.
I am however happy that my colleagues who have had all promotion and careers opportunities removed from them because of the use of what we all know to be a deliberate attempt to avoid paying oz terms and conditions may now get to experience the career they joined for.
As far as jetconnect crew joining mainline, I'd be more than happy for that to happen. So long as they joined the same way as everyone else. As a second officer.
I am however happy that my colleagues who have had all promotion and careers opportunities removed from them because of the use of what we all know to be a deliberate attempt to avoid paying oz terms and conditions may now get to experience the career they joined for.
As far as jetconnect crew joining mainline, I'd be more than happy for that to happen. So long as they joined the same way as everyone else. As a second officer.
Nunc est bibendum
I agree. I'd welcome former Jetconnect pilots into QF the same way we welcome former GA drivers, RAAFies, cadets, etc. With open arms, at their respective place in the seniority list. It's a real shame though that if this comes off their seniority will be on the bottom of the pile. Perhaps if we'd all been working together from an earlier time their seniority would be higher.
astroboy55
Well said.
The Jetconnect closure is still a rumour at this stage but all will be revealed soon enough. I guess it could explain why there has been quite a few 737 slots advertised in the past 6 months with seemingly no large increase in airframes (constant stream of new 738 deliveries but no net increase due Classic retirement).
I am however happy that my colleagues who have had all promotion and careers opportunities removed from them because of the use of what we all know to be a deliberate attempt to avoid paying oz terms and conditions may now get to experience the career they joined for.
The Jetconnect closure is still a rumour at this stage but all will be revealed soon enough. I guess it could explain why there has been quite a few 737 slots advertised in the past 6 months with seemingly no large increase in airframes (constant stream of new 738 deliveries but no net increase due Classic retirement).
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Would have thought the JetConnect guys far more likely to end up at JetstarNZ one way or another? I hope NZALPA can arrange a fair deal.
No seniority there, and they're very short of crew, both FO's and DEC's.
Pretty unsettling times, I hope NZALPA is able to get some direction from QF. Speaking to one of my mates there however, they are told NOTHING.
No seniority there, and they're very short of crew, both FO's and DEC's.
Pretty unsettling times, I hope NZALPA is able to get some direction from QF. Speaking to one of my mates there however, they are told NOTHING.
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Tread carefully here lads, lest you be accused of hypocrisy.
On one hand you are happy to endorse que jumping via an mou to take commands and base postings over your bretheren who have been waiting either for an upgrade or a return to the base of choice...
Yet on the other hand you are struggling to restrain your excitement that more of your fellow aviators might be soon out of a job. Even those who are stating they would welcome the unemployed into their ranks are placing the caveat that it be at the bottom of the seniority list.
Everyone else's job seems to be "your job".
I understand the frustration many of you have felt at mainline over the years, but its always worth putting yourself in the other mans shoes and honestly thinking about your reactions given the same circumstances before deciding to post your thoughts on a forum like this.
The main cause of road rage is not traffic congestion, it is anonymity. When you meet someone on a footpath and see their face your far less likely to react in the aggressive manner you might when concealed in the anonymous bubble of your car.
This forum breeds aviation road rage of the worst kind.
On one hand you are happy to endorse que jumping via an mou to take commands and base postings over your bretheren who have been waiting either for an upgrade or a return to the base of choice...
Yet on the other hand you are struggling to restrain your excitement that more of your fellow aviators might be soon out of a job. Even those who are stating they would welcome the unemployed into their ranks are placing the caveat that it be at the bottom of the seniority list.
Everyone else's job seems to be "your job".
I understand the frustration many of you have felt at mainline over the years, but its always worth putting yourself in the other mans shoes and honestly thinking about your reactions given the same circumstances before deciding to post your thoughts on a forum like this.
The main cause of road rage is not traffic congestion, it is anonymity. When you meet someone on a footpath and see their face your far less likely to react in the aggressive manner you might when concealed in the anonymous bubble of your car.
This forum breeds aviation road rage of the worst kind.
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On one hand you are happy to endorse que jumping via an mou to take commands and base postings over your bretheren who have been waiting either for an upgrade or a return to the base of choice...
They are taking available positions agreed to when J* was conceived.
Keg will attest to a letter of understanding co signed by Alan Joyce (the then CEO of Jetstar) as to how Jetstar was going to crew it's proposed operation & expansion.
Being a combination of Impulse, MOU Hotspots with A320 command time, other MOU slots & J* direct entry recruitment.
Management will continue their path, with employee career destruction in it's wake as it attempts to generate revenue, profits & bonuses.
Think Australian Airlines Cairns & if the rumour is true Jetconnect.
Anyway in Jetstar taking note?
As I've said for a while withdrawing from the MOU also cancels the agreement to transfer to mainline in the event of redundancies.
A condition Jetconnect guys & girls may wish they had at the moment.
MC.
Nunc est bibendum
On one hand you are happy to endorse que jumping via an mou to take commands and base postings over your bretheren who have been waiting either for an upgrade or a return to the base of choice...
1. Que jumping- as far as I recall, there are Q numbers on the J* seniority list, therefore no one is jumping the que.
2. Bretheren waiting for an upgrade- those taking the upgrade via the mou have been waiting much longer than the 'bretheren' waiting for the upgrade or base transfer.
3. Bretheren waiting for a base transfer- not sure any one taking an upgrade via the MoU is preventing anyone from moving base. Quite the opposite in fact, the little deal done to lock the MoU commands to DRW means that some guys who have seniority to transfer out of DN won't be able to. If there are no vacancies outside of DRW in three years time when the base freeze finishes then they're not going anywhere even then.
So tell me again the issue you have? Ah yes, some have been inappropriate in their joy at others losing their jobs. They've been called on it by other Qantas pilots. I guess the parallel is the joy that the J* crew used to have in telling QF crew that they were going to be done over. I don't recall many J* crew calling their colleagues on that issue.
I agree completely with your last two paras LJS.
The Jetconnect pilots operate as contractors don't they? Gulp. As such, if the rumour is true there is no reason why they won't feel the full force of Joyce's bat on their a*se.
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I have to agree with you both there. Using the mou in its original intent and in a transparent fashion is not cue jumping, and my reference to it being so was infationary and wrong.
I can categorically state that there are captains who have been waiting several years to get back to BNE and OOL and have been prevented from doing so due to the recent influx of mou transfers. I can also say first hand that several mou transfers have been vocal in their hopes to "jump the cue" (their words, not mine) to a 787 command because of their 767 time.
However this is not my point, and I want to try and avoid wading into the argument.
When it comes down to it we all want a secure job with a future. Most of us have mortgages and families, and we all have a lot more in common than not. Most pilots find their careers progressing through luck and timming rather than sheer brilliance in their technical abilities.
As a Jetstar pilot who's career is directly affected by the mou I woulds say this to any mou pilot, "it's ok, I would do exactly the same thing if I were in your position".
As a fellow pilot I would say this to any jet connect pilot, "I genuinely wish you all the best".
Lets extend a hand of generosity and mateship to our fellow aviators. Regardless of the political outcome, it might just make us happier and be the antidote to the bitterness so many of us have become used to carrying in our profession.
I can categorically state that there are captains who have been waiting several years to get back to BNE and OOL and have been prevented from doing so due to the recent influx of mou transfers. I can also say first hand that several mou transfers have been vocal in their hopes to "jump the cue" (their words, not mine) to a 787 command because of their 767 time.
However this is not my point, and I want to try and avoid wading into the argument.
When it comes down to it we all want a secure job with a future. Most of us have mortgages and families, and we all have a lot more in common than not. Most pilots find their careers progressing through luck and timming rather than sheer brilliance in their technical abilities.
As a Jetstar pilot who's career is directly affected by the mou I woulds say this to any mou pilot, "it's ok, I would do exactly the same thing if I were in your position".
As a fellow pilot I would say this to any jet connect pilot, "I genuinely wish you all the best".
Lets extend a hand of generosity and mateship to our fellow aviators. Regardless of the political outcome, it might just make us happier and be the antidote to the bitterness so many of us have become used to carrying in our profession.
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Dude. We're not celebrating you losing your job, we're celebrating you losing our jobs.
The Jetconnect pilots operate as contractors don't they?
Keg, your a voice of reason and I wish the QANTAS pilots I have met were more like you.
Your beef is with the management, YOUR AUSTRALIAN MANAGEMENT that set up Jetconnect in the first place, to obviously try and maintain a viable position on the Trans-Tasman network for YOUR wider network at a cost that was comparable to the other operators on that route.
They never took YOUR JOBS because there was no JOBS for you in the first place. (As far as I know, no Jetconnect crew has ever operated in Australian domestic. That would be YOUR JOB)
Cue, Que? & Queue
Here's a cue to getting in the right Queue:
Cue:
1. a long, tapering rod, tipped with a soft leather pad, used to strike the ball in billiards
2. a hint; intimation; guiding suggestion. (eg: that was his cue to enter the room)
3. not normally something to be jumped, especially not with alcoholic assistance
Que: ?????
Queue:
1. a file or line, especially of people waiting their turn.
2. a braid of hair worn hanging down behind. (as in a mullet??)
3. Computers . a FIFO-organized sequence of items, as data, messages, jobs, or the like, waiting for action.
Too late ....you've read it now.
.....Oh I forgot. Dont take the views of one to be the views of any group in which they are a member.
Cue:
1. a long, tapering rod, tipped with a soft leather pad, used to strike the ball in billiards
2. a hint; intimation; guiding suggestion. (eg: that was his cue to enter the room)
3. not normally something to be jumped, especially not with alcoholic assistance
Que: ?????
Queue:
1. a file or line, especially of people waiting their turn.
2. a braid of hair worn hanging down behind. (as in a mullet??)
3. Computers . a FIFO-organized sequence of items, as data, messages, jobs, or the like, waiting for action.
Too late ....you've read it now.
.....Oh I forgot. Dont take the views of one to be the views of any group in which they are a member.
Last edited by C441; 11th Oct 2012 at 06:48.
Nunc est bibendum
Ah, thanks for the spelling lesson C441. I knew it didn't look quite right when I typed it but was in a rush and so glossed over it.
The Director, easy mate. When you say 'you blokes' you tarnish us all. If you want to say 'some of your blokes' then fill your boots. I don't know who Twin Beech is and what their situation is so I don't want to speak for what they may have been feeling to prompt their comments. Just know that not everyone at Qantas shares the same sense of joy at people potentially losing their jobs.
Gate 15_L, thanks for the compliment.
Unbelievable! You blokes want the best of everything.
Gate 15_L, thanks for the compliment.
Director, airlines paying for endorsements has been an industry norm for a very long time, and as it should be. While I understand pilots being prepared to pay for their own, it is not really something we should strive for in any airline. Same with iPads.
Gate_15L,
I agree what you're saying about management being the culprits etc, but don't forget who operated those flights across the Tasman pre-Jet Connect. Jet Connect didn't just start a new market, they took over mainline flying, and subsequently slowed down career progression for mainline pilots.
And what happened to the group of aircraft in the 738 Rego block VH-VZE to VZL? Oh that's right, they're now registered ZK-ZQA and onwards, sporting the Qantas livery with "Spirit of Australia" on the side (and even The Wallabies logo at one stage).
They never took YOUR JOBS because there was no JOBS for you in the first place. (As far as I know, no Jetconnect crew has ever operated in Australian domestic. That would be YOUR JOB)
And what happened to the group of aircraft in the 738 Rego block VH-VZE to VZL? Oh that's right, they're now registered ZK-ZQA and onwards, sporting the Qantas livery with "Spirit of Australia" on the side (and even The Wallabies logo at one stage).
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Situational Ethics
Well, I seemed to have stirred up a hornet's nest of po-faced revisionism.
While I in fact take no actual pleasure from anyone losing their job through an operator shutting down, having been there myself at least six times, I am well short of rending my garments over this.
Since the advent of the susidiary carriers I have NEVER heard a QF pilot speak in complimentary terms of Jet Connect, Jet Star. JetConnect c*nts yes, JetConnect brothers? Not once. So lighten up on the new found comradery. I don't speak for anyone but me, and I'd be more than happy to do it to your face.
The guys that I fly with were all told by Dixon that they'd all be captains in five years. That was about eight years ago. They all have ten plus years in the company, have aspirations and families too, and the now dashed expectations that they'd enjoy a career of the typical trajectory. They were promised that (expressed or implied) first, well before any of the LCC bretheren. So guess who I support?
Twin Beech
While I in fact take no actual pleasure from anyone losing their job through an operator shutting down, having been there myself at least six times, I am well short of rending my garments over this.
Since the advent of the susidiary carriers I have NEVER heard a QF pilot speak in complimentary terms of Jet Connect, Jet Star. JetConnect c*nts yes, JetConnect brothers? Not once. So lighten up on the new found comradery. I don't speak for anyone but me, and I'd be more than happy to do it to your face.
The guys that I fly with were all told by Dixon that they'd all be captains in five years. That was about eight years ago. They all have ten plus years in the company, have aspirations and families too, and the now dashed expectations that they'd enjoy a career of the typical trajectory. They were promised that (expressed or implied) first, well before any of the LCC bretheren. So guess who I support?
Twin Beech
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Just know that not everyone at Qantas shares the same sense of joy at people potentially losing their jobs.
by Transition Layer - I agree what you're saying about management being the culprits etc, but don't forget who operated those flights across the Tasman pre-Jet Connect. Jet Connect didn't just start a new market, they took over mainline flying, and subsequently slowed down career progression for mainline pilots.
And what happened to the group of aircraft in the 738 Rego block VH-VZE to VZL? Oh that's right, they're now registered ZK-ZQA and onwards, sporting the Qantas livery with "Spirit of Australia" on the side (and even The Wallabies logo at one stage).
And what happened to the group of aircraft in the 738 Rego block VH-VZE to VZL? Oh that's right, they're now registered ZK-ZQA and onwards, sporting the Qantas livery with "Spirit of Australia" on the side (and even The Wallabies logo at one stage).
All this uncertainty was definitely created by the management, the sole purpose, in my view, force the line in the sand on pilot conditions.... obvious now, but when the Jetcon thing was implemented as a policy from the board down at Q, who would of thought then Q would now be teaming up with EK and leaving its well established ties with BA and one world who will have Qatar as its newest member soon? (last time I looked, also a ME carrier, go figure..)
Back then, the setup of Jet Con was sold to the Australian government and anyone else who wanted to listen, it was the pilot wages that were the main cause for the Tasman not making money for mainline .... I suggest this was not the case at all when you consider the overall big picture we are faced with today... other words... the pilot costs to Q were greatly exaggerated, and the management spent far too much time on this issue, which they eventually got their way, now it seems to no avail..
As I see it, if the rumours are indeed true (Jet con folding) then it was setup for the wrong reasons, highlighted by the current EK/QF proposed tie up....
today I noted this in the press,
Portions of British Airways' submission to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, which is deciding whether to approve a Qantas-Emirates alliance, have been blacked out.
These include the end of a sentence that details what impact ''the termination'' of the Qantas-BA alliance in favour of the proposed venture with Emirates would have on British Airways.
British Airways said it had relied on the revenue-sharing agreement with Qantas to gain better scheduling of flights and a more efficient use of aircraft time, as well as better access to the high-yielding Australian corporate travel market and better connections in Singapore, Hong Kong and Bangkok.
The airline also said in the submission that the combination of Emirates, Qantas and Jetstar would give it ''significant leverage'' on trans-Tasman routes and would minimise BA's ability to provide competing services in and out of New Zealand.
Qantas and British Airways have said before that their alliance was terminated on amicable terms.
Read more: BA flags end of Australia route
These include the end of a sentence that details what impact ''the termination'' of the Qantas-BA alliance in favour of the proposed venture with Emirates would have on British Airways.
British Airways said it had relied on the revenue-sharing agreement with Qantas to gain better scheduling of flights and a more efficient use of aircraft time, as well as better access to the high-yielding Australian corporate travel market and better connections in Singapore, Hong Kong and Bangkok.
The airline also said in the submission that the combination of Emirates, Qantas and Jetstar would give it ''significant leverage'' on trans-Tasman routes and would minimise BA's ability to provide competing services in and out of New Zealand.
Qantas and British Airways have said before that their alliance was terminated on amicable terms.
Read more: BA flags end of Australia route
more uncertain times ahead on both sides of the Tasman for all pilots concerned.. it never seems to end.. I for one support all of you... regardless what camp you are assigned to... at the end of the day, you are all pilots who have worked hard to get where you are today... the system makes you all jump through extra hoops compared to most other professions, something the general public don't really understand.. hats off to all of ya!
No one takes pleasure from fellow pilots losing their job...TIMA9X touched on the emotion of uncertainty. For the first time in a long time (5 years) it seems Mainline are not the potential losers out of uncertainty. This may evoke feelings of relief and hope for progression...I'm sure for most Mainline drivers, these are the dominating thoughts...not happiness that Jetconnect may shut down. If the rumour is true, good news has been a long time coming for these guys and lets face it, it is tiny growth in terms of what has been lost over the last 5 years. Good luck to everyone
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Pretty much sums up what people have been saying on here
For the first time in a long time (5 years) it seems Mainline are not the potential losers out of uncertainty.and lets face it, it is tiny growth in terms of what has been lost over the last 5 years. Good luck to everyone
The gods must be crazy: chronology of and issues in the Qantas industrial dispute 2011 – Parliament of Australia
Qantas better at lobbying than advertising
I’ve been waiting for the Qantas “the reason we fly” campaign to develop, grow wings and go somewhere that made sense, but I’ve come to suspect that what we see is all there is. No, it’s not getting off the ground, other than for the aerial shots.
Does anyone who doesn’t work for the agency that sold it or in the Qantas department that bought it actually think it’s more than dull?
In my humble consumer’s opinion, it could be the most boring airline advertising campaign ever made. Whatever excitement, adventure and pleasure that’s left in flying has been carefully expunged, leaving a pitch that is extremely hard to swallow.
I suspect that the reason Qantas flies is that it’s an airline and that’s the way an airline makes money. It would be more credible to go on about the shape of the wing and thrust and lift and such if you want to get technical.
Throw in some snappy pictures of nice Qantas people and pretty places and it would at least be an improvement.
At the risk of sounding harsh, it looks like the reason Qantas stuck with the “still call Australia home” campaign for so long was that it couldn’t think of a better idea and still hasn’t. Come to think of it, Qantas went big on Baz Luhrmann’s dud Australia movie too.
Lobbying works better than advertising
Fortunately for Qantas, it seems lobbying rather than advertising works in Canberra. How things have changed for the Flying Roo in the nation’s capital.
From pariah status when he grounded the fleet a year ago, Alan Joyce now has ministers singing the praises of his non-equity Emirates merger. Suddenly there are friends in high places advising the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission to let it rip.
Martin Ferguson reportedly very much hopes the ACCC agrees to the Qantas/Emirates deal.
“From an Australian perspective, looking at tourism bringing together that range of opportunities from Europe and the marketing capacity of Emirates in partnership with Qantas, I think that is exceptionally important and that will create…jobs in Australia,” Mr Ferguson said, with all the loquaciousness of a Tourism Minister saying not much but wanting to mention jobs creation.
Anthony Albanese was already on board, the AFR noting the Transport and Infrastructure Minister said a month ago that the agreement should be approved and that Qantas needed to forge such prospects to prosper.
(He might have meant “to survive”, but he didn’t say it. In any event, whatever Albanese says about air transport lacks credibility as long as he puts the Labor Party’s sad political prospects ahead of the national interest by promoting the idea of a second Sydney airport at Wilton instead of Badgerys Creek. Wilton is amidst coalition seats. Badgerys Creek is Labor territory. Far western Wollongong doesn’t need an airport, western Sydney does.)
Questionable tourist angle
The more-tourists-more-jobs angle is being pushed by Emirates itself for the ACCC’s benefit, tossing in the bauble of a $14.3 million marketing joint venture with Tourism Australia. That’s $14.3 million over three years and a joint venture, so, assuming it’s a 50/50 deal, let’s say $2.38 million a year for Emirates spread over all of Europe to mark the effective acquisition of Qantas’ continental market and the gaining of a domestic feeder network, and that’s without going into how much of the marketing is really about Emirates branding rather than encouraging Europeans to visit Australia.
Nice of Tourism Australia to contribute, I suppose. Was that the same mob that thought they had a hot marketing joint venture with Baz’s dud Australia movie? They’re on a roll.
It’s nice for the Tourism Minister to think Emirates/Qantas will create tourism jobs, but until the day the deal was announced, the Qantas line was that Emirates wasn’t about increasing European inbound at all – it was all about taking keen-to-travel Australians overseas and away from the local tourism industry.
Does anyone seriously think there are Italians, French and Germans who have been delaying their trip Down Under until Emirates and Qantas offered codeshare?
It turns out that the airlines that are proving good for creating more visitors to Australia are the Asian low cost carriers. The likes of AirAsia and Scoot are running two-to-one inbound. They’re creating new jobs. If Tourism Australia was interested in reinforcing success, that’s where investing its $7.15 million could earn dividends.
People outside the industry underestimate what a rich outbound market we Australians are. In total dollars, we were the world’s 10th biggest spenders overseas last year, despite there being only 22.7 million of us.
Those higher on the UN Tourism list were all considerably larger countries with closer borders. Our foreign spending soared 21 per cent in just one year. Hoovering up such a rich, keen-to-travel market and gaining access to the fruit of one of the world’s most successful frequent flyer programs is very nice for Emirates indeed. The ACCC just shouldn’t expect it to create many or perhaps any jobs here.
Purely about survival
And the ACCC should also ignore the self-interested claims of Virgin and its allies who claim there’s a serious reduction in competition involved. That’s the Virgin that’s wisely and busily stitching up all the deals it can with foreign carriers.
From the Qantas point of view, Joyce has made clear the deal is purely about survival as an international airline. It’s not a very grand goal, but if that’s all that’s left, pulling off the deal makes it a win.
And it thwarts the danger of Emirates putting a spare plane or two to work on the Australian domestic runs at some stage, as it does now across the Tasman – virtually a domestic route.
How much present and past Qantas management is to blame for the current situation has been canvassed before and there’s not much to be gained by rehashing the past mistakes. However, for those of us with an interest in Qantas’ performance, either as shareholders or frequent flyers, there is mileage in challenging the competitive face Qantas is showing the domestic market.
Virgin's shiny new planes
By way of comparison with the lame “why we fly”, I recently caught what was a new-to-me Virgin Australia TV ad. It was schmick and to the point - lots of bright and shiny VA people, a matching new plane materialising and the implied whisper of efficient, roomy, up-to-date travel. Whatever the truth of the matter, the ad was as bright as the Qantas campaign is drab.
The reality is that the newest Virgin Australia planes do feel roomier and brighter and newer, because they are. They’re not two-decade-old 767s running on the promise of the cabins being refreshed. And those trying to be loyal to the Qantas brand don’t want to think about those delayed and now delayed again 787s that are going to Jetstar instead.
Yet I enjoy flying Qantas despite the advertising. The people and service are pretty good in the circumstances. When fortunate enough to be up the front, the people, service and food tend to be very good compared with any overseas domestic or short-haul experience I’ve had. Before venting about Qantas or Virgin Australia economy, try “first” on an internal US flight.
Virgin Australia continues to lift its game and has become a very worthy alternative. If it keeps lifting, Qantas will find it very hard indeed to maintain its 65 per cent domestic market share “line in the sand”, or in the air. We are fortunate to again have two good full service domestic airlines competing with each other. One of them even knows how to make an advertisement, while the other has rediscovered lobbying powers.
Admittedly, I fly enough to have Qantas platinum status which means the whole booking, seat selection, checking in and lounge process is smoothed. Haven’t cracked VA platinum yet, but it looks attractive, especially as it allows avoidance of some Sydney’s T2 terminal tackiness.
And one can only wish that economy knee room in those spruce new VA 737s was the industry standard, even if the occasional twit still tilts the seat back.
Michael Pascoe is a BusinessDay contributing editor
Read more: Qantas better at lobbying than advertising
Last edited by TIMA9X; 12th Oct 2012 at 04:54.
