QANTAS - WHERE TO NOW?
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FYSTI
Thats not how 26.6.1 seems to read?
JQ overtime starts at 75, not 58 and the fraction is a lot smaller as well.
but there are also differences in the penalty clauses (QF have none, J* have effectively double pay to work a day off
JQ overtime starts at 75, not 58 and the fraction is a lot smaller as well.
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Warren, that is not a penalty clause, it is the calculation of the overtime rate. You are correct with regard to the various differences in the rates for overtime calculations.
By penalty clause I mean that additional hours are paid above the work done, ie in the J* contract, section 25.5.4 working on a day off attracts a "days pay" plus an additional "days pay" - effectively 8 hours pay (subject to annual hours flown), regardless of hours flown in that duty. J* have more days off in which to attract the payment per roster.
J* also have an additional 2.5 days off per roster period (28 days QF, calander J*). At about ~850 hours per year this equates to double time. Virgin get min 5 hours on a day off (also ~11.5 days off per 28 day period). QF do not get any of these. At best, they may get an "bonus hour" for being called off reserve (min 4 hours pay) to do say MEL-SYD-MEL. But say a MEL-SYD-BNE-MEL off reserve is flight pay only. My info is that for QF, 95% of hours paid is hours actually flown.
J* also have a retention payment in addition to a profit share scheme (QF have profit share only)
I was very clear when I said "basket of hours". At first blush, the QF contract appears to be substantially better on the headline rate. As usual, the devil is in the detail and one needs examine closely all three contracts in their entirety and imagine the real world of 12 months flying with the usual roster disruptions and number off available to be called on, and the various penalties that apply. I think if you sat down with a spreadsheet and played around with some numbers that all three contract will very close in earning potential for a given basket of hours in the real world.
By penalty clause I mean that additional hours are paid above the work done, ie in the J* contract, section 25.5.4 working on a day off attracts a "days pay" plus an additional "days pay" - effectively 8 hours pay (subject to annual hours flown), regardless of hours flown in that duty. J* have more days off in which to attract the payment per roster.
J* also have an additional 2.5 days off per roster period (28 days QF, calander J*). At about ~850 hours per year this equates to double time. Virgin get min 5 hours on a day off (also ~11.5 days off per 28 day period). QF do not get any of these. At best, they may get an "bonus hour" for being called off reserve (min 4 hours pay) to do say MEL-SYD-MEL. But say a MEL-SYD-BNE-MEL off reserve is flight pay only. My info is that for QF, 95% of hours paid is hours actually flown.
J* also have a retention payment in addition to a profit share scheme (QF have profit share only)
I was very clear when I said "basket of hours". At first blush, the QF contract appears to be substantially better on the headline rate. As usual, the devil is in the detail and one needs examine closely all three contracts in their entirety and imagine the real world of 12 months flying with the usual roster disruptions and number off available to be called on, and the various penalties that apply. I think if you sat down with a spreadsheet and played around with some numbers that all three contract will very close in earning potential for a given basket of hours in the real world.
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Not seeing the point of your argument? But, out of the 2 EBA's I know which I'd rather be on.
Regarding the "basket of hours" and I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that, if both groups work fly roughly 85hrs / month, again the QF pilot prices himself off the chart by pulling 27hours of overtime compared to a JQ pilot who pulls 10.
Unless I've got it all wrong, which is highly likely.
Regarding the "basket of hours" and I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that, if both groups work fly roughly 85hrs / month, again the QF pilot prices himself off the chart by pulling 27hours of overtime compared to a JQ pilot who pulls 10.
Unless I've got it all wrong, which is highly likely.
Nunc est bibendum
58 hours is 'min guarantee'. That is, fly 58, get paid 58. Fly 75, get paid 75. There is no 'overtime' rates per se between 58 and 75. The point that FYSTI is making is that when all three sets of crew fly 80 hours per month then their pay is going to be very close. In the J* and Virgin case, when the 'additional' rates are taken into account for day off flying etc, there is the potential for them to be earning more than the QF crew.
I'm not full bottle on the QF SH award so I may be out a bit too but that's the point I understand FYSTI to be making.
I'm not full bottle on the QF SH award so I may be out a bit too but that's the point I understand FYSTI to be making.
Originally Posted by waren9
Unless I've got it all wrong, which is highly likely.
"overtime" on the SH award =/= a penalty rate. it's hours over the min pay level that will be paid after the months flying at the same rate as the previous 58hrs.
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MRO costs Australia
In order to understand these decisions I am trying to get my head around MRO costs in Australia vs. overseas. What does a D-Check on a 767 cost? Is Singapore or China that much cheaper? Is the cost all in salaries?
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"overtime" on the SH award =/= a penalty rate. it's hours over the min pay level that will be paid after the months flying at the same rate as the previous 58hrs.
After 58hrs QF pilots also earn 1/696th of base for each hour thereafter. EBA 26.6.1.
A JQ pilot earns 1/787th of (a lower) base salary only after he has flown more than 75. If both do 75 hours, then pilot J gets base salary only and pilot Q gets base plus 17/696th's, no?
So. Overtime cuts in earlier and is a bigger fraction of a better base.
How am I wrong?
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Warren, perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. By basket of flying, I mean the normal cut and thrust of short haul - additional flying that crops up, cancellations, reserve call outs working days off, etc in addition to normal rostered flying.
Keg is correct.
Take an additional MEL-SYD-MEL that all three Captains get asked to do on a day off, the QF guy gets $750, Jetstar $1400 and virgin $1100 (approx). In a 30 day roster both JQ and VB have 11.5 days (average) off, so there is good scope to pick up this flying. Of course the companies are going to try to maximise hours worked on those days. Working just two days off a month is very lucrative, and it takes the number of days off to match the QF guy.
Which contract would I choose? VB.
Keg is correct.
Take an additional MEL-SYD-MEL that all three Captains get asked to do on a day off, the QF guy gets $750, Jetstar $1400 and virgin $1100 (approx). In a 30 day roster both JQ and VB have 11.5 days (average) off, so there is good scope to pick up this flying. Of course the companies are going to try to maximise hours worked on those days. Working just two days off a month is very lucrative, and it takes the number of days off to match the QF guy.
Which contract would I choose? VB.
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What does a D-Check on a 767 cost? Is Singapore or China that much cheaper?
On occasion the overseas maintained ones can be noticeably bad... switches not quite right...random stray electrons...very odd things.
Then again, maybe its just cause their old and need to be replaced.
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Warren, perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. By basket of flying, I mean the normal cut and thrust of short haul - additional flying that crops up, cancellations, reserve call outs working days off, etc in addition to normal rostered flying.
Keg is correct.
Take an additional MEL-SYD-MEL that all three Captains get asked to do on a day off, the QF guy gets $750, Jetstar $1400 and virgin $1100 (approx). In a 30 day roster both JQ and VB have 11.5 days (average) off, so there is good scope to pick up this flying. Of course the companies are going to try to maximise hours worked on those days. Working just two days off a month is very lucrative, and it takes the number of days off to match the QF guy.
Keg is correct.
Take an additional MEL-SYD-MEL that all three Captains get asked to do on a day off, the QF guy gets $750, Jetstar $1400 and virgin $1100 (approx). In a 30 day roster both JQ and VB have 11.5 days (average) off, so there is good scope to pick up this flying. Of course the companies are going to try to maximise hours worked on those days. Working just two days off a month is very lucrative, and it takes the number of days off to match the QF guy.
As a general rule, I don't work days off. Life's too short to spend them at work as well.
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I hear the 200 engineers from Sydney got their marching orders yesterday. A sad day I suspect for QF,,, some 2000 years of real aircraft knowledge goooooone forever. 
Sir SP confirm?
Sir SP confirm?
Last edited by Short_Circuit; 12th Apr 2012 at 08:31. Reason: how many years 20,000 (not)
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FYSTI, thanks for posting the links to the EBA's etc.
It appears from afar that AJ is on a union busting exercise. I think we all agree on that.
It doesn't have to ba a union busting exercise though. It could be an agreement adjusting exercise. If your representatives can't get access to the CEO to discuss things, you need to get some fresh ones who can. If they won't negotiate to your long term career benefit, get some fresh ones.
QF wil roster you as efficiently to CAO 48 as they can, but if they can get JetStar to do the job for a lower cost they will.
The guys at the top of you list are sitting pretty, its the guys at the bottom who need to drive through change, as they will still want a job in 30 years.
Its your future. You either keep things as they are and watch QF shrink, or adjust and stay in a career.
It appears from afar that AJ is on a union busting exercise. I think we all agree on that.
It doesn't have to ba a union busting exercise though. It could be an agreement adjusting exercise. If your representatives can't get access to the CEO to discuss things, you need to get some fresh ones who can. If they won't negotiate to your long term career benefit, get some fresh ones.
QF wil roster you as efficiently to CAO 48 as they can, but if they can get JetStar to do the job for a lower cost they will.
The guys at the top of you list are sitting pretty, its the guys at the bottom who need to drive through change, as they will still want a job in 30 years.
Its your future. You either keep things as they are and watch QF shrink, or adjust and stay in a career.
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I think the marching orders were given to those who requested it.
If you believe management ( and who wouldn't? ) there will be no compulsory redundancies in Syd base or SIO as they got the numbers required.
They were short of LAMEs but a few have been given transfers to other ports and this will count in reducing the headcount.
They used common sense for once in allowing transfers to happen.
If you believe management ( and who wouldn't? ) there will be no compulsory redundancies in Syd base or SIO as they got the numbers required.
They were short of LAMEs but a few have been given transfers to other ports and this will count in reducing the headcount.
They used common sense for once in allowing transfers to happen.
Where to Now?
Article below relates to a 2nd Sydney airport but the highlight piece got a good laugh out of me..
Sydney Airport? Just cut Sydney loose and get on with life | Plane Talking
Article below relates to a 2nd Sydney airport but the highlight piece got a good laugh out of me..
Let’s get real. If you live in Melbourne, even Qantas will fly you non-stop to LAX. You’d be barking made to go via Sydney. And all those cruel nasty foreign Asian carriers, apart from the ones Qantas tried to suck up to, can fly you non-stop from Melbourne to all the major hubs, where you can easily, and for less money, fly direct to cities Qantas managers couldn’t find in an atlas standing up in a phone booth. If it’s not the mother country, Qantas isn’t interested, and if it is the mother country, it isn’t interested as much as used to be anyhow.
Great article - had me rolling on the floor laughing.
I can't see a second SYD airport happening anytime soon, given the politics. SYD has been a problem for 30-odd years and they still can't (or won't) make a decision.
Increasing congestion at SYD will eventually make the place unworkable. That roadblock will harm the NSW economy, but will encourage economic opportunities elsewhere and the international traffic will follow.
I agree with Ben - let it die.
I can't see a second SYD airport happening anytime soon, given the politics. SYD has been a problem for 30-odd years and they still can't (or won't) make a decision.
Increasing congestion at SYD will eventually make the place unworkable. That roadblock will harm the NSW economy, but will encourage economic opportunities elsewhere and the international traffic will follow.
I agree with Ben - let it die.
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Here’s a radical pre-budget thought, let’s cut Sydney loose
Knowledge gap ... Alan Joyce has wondered if Qantas once found its own oil. Illustration: John Shakespeare
Qantas's chief executive, Alan Joyce, helped narrow the location for Sydney's second airport on Friday before the launch of the airline's first flight powered by cooking oil (or at least a portion of it).
Asked where he thought the best location was for the second airport, on top of the dozen or so already picked around the Cumberland Plain since 1946, Joyce declared: ''Sydney.''
Present at the cooking-oil-powered flight event was Shell's chairwoman in Australia, Ann Pickard, who once had the honour of mention in a diplomatic cable leaked by WikiLeaks. Pickard was keen to emphasise that the oil company had been supplying the Flying Kangaroo for 85 years. But she added: ''I'm not sure what happened for the first seven years.'' (Qantas was founded in 1920.)
From there, Joyce said: ''All I can suggest for the first seven years, Ann, is that I know our pioneers were very entrepreneurial. And I know the first seven years we built our own aircraft but I didn't know they drilled for oil at the same time.'
Read more: Joyce hits on new way to cut costs
Qantas's chief executive, Alan Joyce, helped narrow the location for Sydney's second airport on Friday before the launch of the airline's first flight powered by cooking oil (or at least a portion of it).
Asked where he thought the best location was for the second airport, on top of the dozen or so already picked around the Cumberland Plain since 1946, Joyce declared: ''Sydney.''
Present at the cooking-oil-powered flight event was Shell's chairwoman in Australia, Ann Pickard, who once had the honour of mention in a diplomatic cable leaked by WikiLeaks. Pickard was keen to emphasise that the oil company had been supplying the Flying Kangaroo for 85 years. But she added: ''I'm not sure what happened for the first seven years.'' (Qantas was founded in 1920.)
From there, Joyce said: ''All I can suggest for the first seven years, Ann, is that I know our pioneers were very entrepreneurial. And I know the first seven years we built our own aircraft but I didn't know they drilled for oil at the same time.'
Read more: Joyce hits on new way to cut costs
Oops I forgot, Agree 73-91 loved Ben's piece too
The other day Anthony Albanese officiated at the opening of the world’s slowest most inefficiently delivered motorway upgrade in history, at the duplication of the M5 from near Campbelltown to the M7 Junction. It took three years to go about seven kilometres. First the RTA built, make that hand crafted with a man with a shovel and ten supervisors, the two extra lanes, then ripped up the other two lanes. It plonked a pedestrian overpass over the freeway that took so long from the first foundations to the first graffiti upon opening that an entire generation was born and graduating from pre-school before it was finished.
The previous Labor Premier of NSW, Kristina Keneally, spent so long getting her name spelled right in the newspapers in her short tenure in the post that she lost oversight of the Sydney-Inner West metro line, and set a record for spending at least $500 million on a project for which not a single metre of tunnel and rail was dug or laid.
Sydney Airport? Just cut Sydney loose and get on with life | Plane Talking
The previous Labor Premier of NSW, Kristina Keneally, spent so long getting her name spelled right in the newspapers in her short tenure in the post that she lost oversight of the Sydney-Inner West metro line, and set a record for spending at least $500 million on a project for which not a single metre of tunnel and rail was dug or laid.
Sydney Airport? Just cut Sydney loose and get on with life | Plane Talking
Last edited by TIMA9X; 16th Apr 2012 at 15:20. Reason: incomplete forgot ad-on
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Jetstar Japan sells 10,000 one-way tickets for 1 yen each
Jetstar Japan sells 10,000 one-way tickets for 1 yen each ? Japan Today: Japan News and DiscussionTOKYO —
Budget airline Jetstar Japan on Tuesday said that it sold 10,000 one-way tickets for one yen each on six domestic routes in a two-hour online campaign during the day.
Budget airline Jetstar Japan on Tuesday said that it sold 10,000 one-way tickets for one yen each on six domestic routes in a two-hour online campaign during the day.
It took Jetstar SIN eight years to make a profit, still waiting for a profit from the Jetstar rabble in Vietnam.... Even more worrying, the Qantas brand which has been funding this venture since conception is having its routes clipped... great business plan if you have shares in Qantas, another eight years before we see a dividend? ...
Notam
BBC News - Pretty pictures: Can images stop data overload?
Your laptop is open on the desk next to you with another set of figures you need - meanwhile you're frantically tabbing through different documents on the main screen.
You have a meeting in 20 minutes and you suddenly feel as if you're swimming in a sea of impenetrable data, and you're starting to sink.
Welcome to the 21st century workplace, and "data overload".
Under siege You're not alone.
Dr Lynda Shaw is a neuroscience and psychology lecturer at Brunel University in the west of London.
"I've been interviewing a lot of senior business people lately, and they're actually hiding... because they're frightened they're going to be asked questions they can't answer, so they're delaying making really quite important decisions," she says.
"When we're inundated with emails, Twitter, Facebook, social media, search engines like Google, it's as if we're expected to know more than we actually do, and we can't retain that level of information, that bombardment.
"When we feel overwhelmed we start to delay making decisions."
Your laptop is open on the desk next to you with another set of figures you need - meanwhile you're frantically tabbing through different documents on the main screen.
You have a meeting in 20 minutes and you suddenly feel as if you're swimming in a sea of impenetrable data, and you're starting to sink.
Welcome to the 21st century workplace, and "data overload".
Under siege You're not alone.
Dr Lynda Shaw is a neuroscience and psychology lecturer at Brunel University in the west of London.
"I've been interviewing a lot of senior business people lately, and they're actually hiding... because they're frightened they're going to be asked questions they can't answer, so they're delaying making really quite important decisions," she says.
"When we're inundated with emails, Twitter, Facebook, social media, search engines like Google, it's as if we're expected to know more than we actually do, and we can't retain that level of information, that bombardment.
"When we feel overwhelmed we start to delay making decisions."