Planes may leave late in new system - Perth
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Nautilus Blue has it straight.
All this pilot vs ATC angst is exactly what the self serving execs want!
ATC DON'T delay for fun. Most, if not all sectors and towers AROUND THE COUNTRY are working with bare minimum staff - if they are lucky! Most are under what is required.
The suits at ASA re-jigged how they measure the staff about 18 mths ago. They now sprout terms like Core and Mature. WTF??? Core is the bare basics needed to keep the lights on. Nobody has mature, which apparently has allowances for Checking, training, team days, simulator training etc. You know all the good stuff to improve your skills - we don't get that. Just a 45min Computer Based Training module (the same one you did last year) to do in you 30 min break (if your lucky enough not to be on the 20min Short Break Procedure - go an look up that scary thing and tremble!!!)
If you bothered to read the senate estimates hearing you will know that we can supply the industry with an army of admin people in bull**** castle - and in fact we are still hiring them. Still not enough!!!
The lack of transparency about what is really happening has been carefully orchestrated over the last 4 years. Don't you pilot types ever wonder why you don't see the staff shortage NOTAM anymore? Ever bothered to find out what "Operational Requirements" is code for. Its been repeated on these forum pages often enough - STAFF SHORTAGES!!!
We have plenty of staff, just not plenty of ATC's.
Big Tony got into Two First Names ear a few years back and whispered that he did not want to look bad with Airlines asking about TIBA. TFN fixed it. Not by hiring more controllers, but by changing the way the shortages are reported and presented (didn't you ever watch Yes Minister? These guys studied that series religiously!) You fly boys whinging about the system have bought the hype. Don't believe the hype!
Perth is a basket case - pure and simple. An old, airport that has been milked by private owners who have been negligent on upgrading infrastructure. The self loading freight are happy with shiny terminals, repaints and new taxi stands while paying $6 for 250ml of water. Looks like PAPL are doing something, then they can blame the rest on industry!
If you believe that the delays are caused by ATC, then get out of your shiny pressurised cans and arrange a visit. You are most welcome. The contact numbers are promulgated through ERSA. Come sit with ATC for an hour of two in the morning burst.
Here's a clue - NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING Perth Airport are doing with the construction on the aerodrome right now, or recently, has anything to do with improving efficiency. It's about PARKING AIRFRAMES. Where are the Rapid Exit Taxiways - built 2 new taxiways, still old school 90 degree turns. Where is the full length parallel taxiway at least for 03/21? You get in a bind on 03, its back to one in and one out! World class
Now as it looks like most of you on here haven't noticed the carnage that has been going on around bays 19 - 24 in conjunction with the International Apron works that is why 06/24 has not been used. To be blunt it so that ATC don't put two together on the tarmac as they try and make a silk purse out a pigs ear.
ATC has lobbyed Perth Airport to issue the NOTAM as it is a risk mitigation for THEIR works, they refused. Now they can blame ATC. Its attitudes like this in the respective management hierarchies that you really should be focusing your anger against.
You got to look at the big picture, we don't want to keep you on frequency any longer than we have to - there are too many of your mates behind. Now keep peddling!
This *#@# is getting boring......
All this pilot vs ATC angst is exactly what the self serving execs want!
ATC DON'T delay for fun. Most, if not all sectors and towers AROUND THE COUNTRY are working with bare minimum staff - if they are lucky! Most are under what is required.
The suits at ASA re-jigged how they measure the staff about 18 mths ago. They now sprout terms like Core and Mature. WTF??? Core is the bare basics needed to keep the lights on. Nobody has mature, which apparently has allowances for Checking, training, team days, simulator training etc. You know all the good stuff to improve your skills - we don't get that. Just a 45min Computer Based Training module (the same one you did last year) to do in you 30 min break (if your lucky enough not to be on the 20min Short Break Procedure - go an look up that scary thing and tremble!!!)
If you bothered to read the senate estimates hearing you will know that we can supply the industry with an army of admin people in bull**** castle - and in fact we are still hiring them. Still not enough!!!
The lack of transparency about what is really happening has been carefully orchestrated over the last 4 years. Don't you pilot types ever wonder why you don't see the staff shortage NOTAM anymore? Ever bothered to find out what "Operational Requirements" is code for. Its been repeated on these forum pages often enough - STAFF SHORTAGES!!!
We have plenty of staff, just not plenty of ATC's.
Big Tony got into Two First Names ear a few years back and whispered that he did not want to look bad with Airlines asking about TIBA. TFN fixed it. Not by hiring more controllers, but by changing the way the shortages are reported and presented (didn't you ever watch Yes Minister? These guys studied that series religiously!) You fly boys whinging about the system have bought the hype. Don't believe the hype!
Perth is a basket case - pure and simple. An old, airport that has been milked by private owners who have been negligent on upgrading infrastructure. The self loading freight are happy with shiny terminals, repaints and new taxi stands while paying $6 for 250ml of water. Looks like PAPL are doing something, then they can blame the rest on industry!
If you believe that the delays are caused by ATC, then get out of your shiny pressurised cans and arrange a visit. You are most welcome. The contact numbers are promulgated through ERSA. Come sit with ATC for an hour of two in the morning burst.
Here's a clue - NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING Perth Airport are doing with the construction on the aerodrome right now, or recently, has anything to do with improving efficiency. It's about PARKING AIRFRAMES. Where are the Rapid Exit Taxiways - built 2 new taxiways, still old school 90 degree turns. Where is the full length parallel taxiway at least for 03/21? You get in a bind on 03, its back to one in and one out! World class
Now as it looks like most of you on here haven't noticed the carnage that has been going on around bays 19 - 24 in conjunction with the International Apron works that is why 06/24 has not been used. To be blunt it so that ATC don't put two together on the tarmac as they try and make a silk purse out a pigs ear.
ATC has lobbyed Perth Airport to issue the NOTAM as it is a risk mitigation for THEIR works, they refused. Now they can blame ATC. Its attitudes like this in the respective management hierarchies that you really should be focusing your anger against.
You got to look at the big picture, we don't want to keep you on frequency any longer than we have to - there are too many of your mates behind. Now keep peddling!
This *#@# is getting boring......
flightfocus, dont get too carried away. "Here's a clue - NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING Perth Airport are doing with the construction on the aerodrome right now, or recently, has anything to do with improving efficiency."
I know there are steps being taken to improve the frustrating situation at Perth. For example the construction of C6 will help to reduce runway occupancy times and improve efficiency. Or do you believe it will be used for parking?
There are people within the airlines, ASA, and Perth airport working very hard to improve the operation at Perth. Ask your respective what they know about the ACE programme if you are not aware of it already. Unfortunately it is slow, and a number of the options people carry on about here have been explored and are not practical or feasible just yet.
Take a chill pill and do what you can to be safe without giving yourself a coronary.
I know there are steps being taken to improve the frustrating situation at Perth. For example the construction of C6 will help to reduce runway occupancy times and improve efficiency. Or do you believe it will be used for parking?
There are people within the airlines, ASA, and Perth airport working very hard to improve the operation at Perth. Ask your respective what they know about the ACE programme if you are not aware of it already. Unfortunately it is slow, and a number of the options people carry on about here have been explored and are not practical or feasible just yet.
Take a chill pill and do what you can to be safe without giving yourself a coronary.
Thread Starter
Ask your respective what they know about the ACE programme if you are not aware of it already. Unfortunately it is slow, and a number of the options people carry on about here have been explored and are not practical or feasible just yet.
Practical or feasible merely means some beancounter has decided that the money need not be spent just yet. A bit like improving roads; the problem being that, instead of stopping/crawling and wasting time but not much extra fuel as you would in a car on a under-capacity road, aeroplanes drill holes in the sky at cruise fuel flow. But that's not on the airport's balance sheet.
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I'm not sure I'd call it terrain, but I'm pretty sure he's talking about Pearce' airspace.
In breaking news, 24 ARRIVALS ARE BACK !!!!!
Ps Boomerang, the airlines flout METRON times, ASA cannot provide enough staff to keep the sectors open and PH airport have built one high speed turnoff to cope with a doubling of movements. I'm guessing you work in an office? If steps are being taken and the coalface don't notice, they I would politely suggest the steps aren't working.
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ASA cannot provide enough staff to keep the sectors open
Yet another example of false saving. AsA thinks they are being clever by not adequately staffing (their costs are reduced)- and who could argue that delays wouldn't be reduced by adding staff?- but the airlines pay in extra delays. No-one ever seems to reconcile the two- because airlines cop delays and costs that have been shifted from AsA. Utterly ridiculous, and inefficient.
Thread Starter
Flights get slot system
Geoffrey Thomas, The West Australian
Updated December 6, 2012, 3:07 am
Geoffrey Thomas, The West Australian
Updated December 6, 2012, 3:07 am
Perth Airport will introduce a system in February to try to bring order to the chaotic line-up of planes waiting for take-off on weekday mornings.
The airport says it has reached consensus with airlines and only 4 per cent of domestic flights will require a time adjustment, with an average change for affected flights of about 15 minutes.
The Schedule Co-ordination System will more closely balance demand and capacity throughout the day, by co-ordinating the departure and arrival flight times of airlines operating at Perth Airport.
There should be fewer delays and uncertainty for airlines and their customers.
Chamber of Minerals and Energy chief executive Reg Howard-Smith said he supported measures taken by Perth Airport and Airservices Australia to improve aviation services in the State.
"The provision of punctual, reliable, safe and efficient aviation services is imperative to the continued sustainability and growth of the Western Australian resources sector and the safety of those working in it," he said.
However, though the slot system brings order, it does not solve the problems of lack of capacity during weekday early morning peaks.
"A collaborative approach from all stakeholders is needed to develop a system well tuned to West Australian circumstances," Mr Howard-Smith said.
The airport says it has reached consensus with airlines and only 4 per cent of domestic flights will require a time adjustment, with an average change for affected flights of about 15 minutes.
The Schedule Co-ordination System will more closely balance demand and capacity throughout the day, by co-ordinating the departure and arrival flight times of airlines operating at Perth Airport.
There should be fewer delays and uncertainty for airlines and their customers.
Chamber of Minerals and Energy chief executive Reg Howard-Smith said he supported measures taken by Perth Airport and Airservices Australia to improve aviation services in the State.
"The provision of punctual, reliable, safe and efficient aviation services is imperative to the continued sustainability and growth of the Western Australian resources sector and the safety of those working in it," he said.
However, though the slot system brings order, it does not solve the problems of lack of capacity during weekday early morning peaks.
"A collaborative approach from all stakeholders is needed to develop a system well tuned to West Australian circumstances," Mr Howard-Smith said.
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On a side note, simply because Perth aviators are following this thread, it has become more obvious recently that some pilots, particularly from one airline, are regularly asking for track shortening off the end of the runway and then on first contact of every subsequent frequency.
In case you haven't noticed, this is Perth. Rarely do you fly as flight planned and we go out of our way to track shorten you as often as we can, often more than we should according to the rules we should be following. Give us a chance to get our initial instructions out and then by all means ask politely if we haven't offered it.
Calling on frequency and advising/demanding/expecting "We can take dct xxx when it is available" just pi$$e$ us off. We'll let you know IF it's available. A bit of common courtesy never goes astray. We don't expect thanks. (but it doesn't go astray if you want us to try and trim your track even more
)
I'm not saying don't ask. I'll bend over forwards to get it for you. I want you apart and out of my airspace as soon as possible
but grumpy demands will see you flying full route unless it suits me otherwise. I'll be the one saying "not available" without even a callsign.
Cheers
In case you haven't noticed, this is Perth. Rarely do you fly as flight planned and we go out of our way to track shorten you as often as we can, often more than we should according to the rules we should be following. Give us a chance to get our initial instructions out and then by all means ask politely if we haven't offered it.
Calling on frequency and advising/demanding/expecting "We can take dct xxx when it is available" just pi$$e$ us off. We'll let you know IF it's available. A bit of common courtesy never goes astray. We don't expect thanks. (but it doesn't go astray if you want us to try and trim your track even more
)I'm not saying don't ask. I'll bend over forwards to get it for you. I want you apart and out of my airspace as soon as possible
but grumpy demands will see you flying full route unless it suits me otherwise. I'll be the one saying "not available" without even a callsign.Cheers
Last edited by Roger Standby; 27th Dec 2012 at 12:57.
Roger Standby said:
Nice! I find it particularly funny when one of my flight deck buddies suggests we ask for track shortening when our flightplan already takes us in a dead straight line to destination.Think Mcfly! Less waypoints doesn't always mean less track miles.
...and yes manners go a long way.
Calling on frequency and advising/demanding/expecting "We can take dct xxx when it is available"
Nice! I find it particularly funny when one of my flight deck buddies suggests we ask for track shortening when our flightplan already takes us in a dead straight line to destination.Think Mcfly! Less waypoints doesn't always mean less track miles.
...and yes manners go a long way.
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Would it help if instead of holding everyone east all the time, they split the load out to the west, may be more miles initially, but would rather come over the airport high and have a nice descent in over the coast then do donuts out east then get screwed around all the way in? Would it also help considering most the traffic departing goes east / north or south? Would noise be the issue as to why they don't do this, or jt, or both?
They other reason I like the approaches from the west is when the wx is crap it often moves west to east, following it in from the west is a lot nicer sometimes then trying to dodge through it from the east, I guess your further away from alternates though if things don't improve?
They other reason I like the approaches from the west is when the wx is crap it often moves west to east, following it in from the west is a lot nicer sometimes then trying to dodge through it from the east, I guess your further away from alternates though if things don't improve?
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Roger Standby,
Totally agree, wait a little and if track shortening isnt forcoming then ask for it,
Just like when given a time to pass a waypoint and so and so comes back and says "best time we can do is ?? We will need some vectors." Well you may need vectors or you may need a new route or you may need to enter a hold! Just give them the best time you can do and let them do their job!, the less talk the better, thats common courtesy too
Totally agree, wait a little and if track shortening isnt forcoming then ask for it,
Just like when given a time to pass a waypoint and so and so comes back and says "best time we can do is ?? We will need some vectors." Well you may need vectors or you may need a new route or you may need to enter a hold! Just give them the best time you can do and let them do their job!, the less talk the better, thats common courtesy too
Any time less than 5 mins we need vectors... Too little for holding...
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Another tracking request issue. If you are tracking A B C D E, and you have been issued with a height requirement by C, don't bother asking for track shortening to D or E until after you have made the requirement.
Really though I'm not that fussed. Someone asks for direct tracking, I say no or will advise (i.e. no). If thats the worst that happens on a shift I'll be happy. I've undoubtedly asked my share of daft questions, "do you expect a normal approach and landing" springs to mind.
RR69 - for those reasons and more it would help, but the problem is Pearce, specifically R160 and R161. I know its our standard excuse, but with the exception of the waves SID and STAR, airspace off the coast in not available when they are active. (Sterling and Lancelin restricted areas are also a issue but not as often.) Thought was given some time ago to having two route structures to the north, depending on weather PEA was active or not. The the thinking was problems of people planning the wrong routes at the wrong times outweighed the benefits.
We do do it on an ad-hoc basis though. Its quite common at night to run traffic inbound from the northwest GEL WAVES rather than MRW REVOP JULIM , particularly if using R03.
Really though I'm not that fussed. Someone asks for direct tracking, I say no or will advise (i.e. no). If thats the worst that happens on a shift I'll be happy. I've undoubtedly asked my share of daft questions, "do you expect a normal approach and landing" springs to mind.
RR69 - for those reasons and more it would help, but the problem is Pearce, specifically R160 and R161. I know its our standard excuse, but with the exception of the waves SID and STAR, airspace off the coast in not available when they are active. (Sterling and Lancelin restricted areas are also a issue but not as often.) Thought was given some time ago to having two route structures to the north, depending on weather PEA was active or not. The the thinking was problems of people planning the wrong routes at the wrong times outweighed the benefits.
We do do it on an ad-hoc basis though. Its quite common at night to run traffic inbound from the northwest GEL WAVES rather than MRW REVOP JULIM , particularly if using R03.
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Would that be the "road runner" requesting direct to a 5 mile final on first contact with APP and track shortening/ high speed at every opportunity, the hapless Coyote is never quite quick enough to Nayle him...
SandyPalms, I think the point is that everyone wants track shortening so there's no point asking for it. You will get it regardless when it becomes available. I've never asked for track shortening in or out of Perth but have been given it on a regular basis, in fact I don't think I've ever flown a full SID.
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Actually, most of our route design and procedures are designed to move individual aircraft as easily as possible for a number of reasons.
The routes are designed for worst case i.e. routes are designed on the assumption there is always someone coming the other way. That means you always get the routes you were given, and usually unrestricted climb/descent whether there is traffic or not. If there is no opposite direction traffic, you get shortened.
The less work each aircraft requires, the more aircraft a controller/sector can deal with. You're paying our wages as well as your fuel bill and any controller has a finite work rate. If the workload is low, I can assess/procure shortening.
Systemic separation is safer then tactical. Rather than try to vector to separate each inbound and each outbound aircraft, SID's and STAR's are given that automatically provide separation. Its also more predictable for pilots.
Overall, though each aircraft may get suboptimal routing, traffic as a whole is optimised (as much as possible).
The routes are designed for worst case i.e. routes are designed on the assumption there is always someone coming the other way. That means you always get the routes you were given, and usually unrestricted climb/descent whether there is traffic or not. If there is no opposite direction traffic, you get shortened.
The less work each aircraft requires, the more aircraft a controller/sector can deal with. You're paying our wages as well as your fuel bill and any controller has a finite work rate. If the workload is low, I can assess/procure shortening.
Systemic separation is safer then tactical. Rather than try to vector to separate each inbound and each outbound aircraft, SID's and STAR's are given that automatically provide separation. Its also more predictable for pilots.
Overall, though each aircraft may get suboptimal routing, traffic as a whole is optimised (as much as possible).
Last edited by Nautilus Blue; 28th Dec 2012 at 07:31.
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Sandy Palms,
Did you even take in the context of what I said? By all means ask. I want to lower your costs and the carbon footprint. I also want you moved along as fast as possible. It's the expectation that some have and the attitude with which it is transmitted.
absolutely agree.
For the record, our rules suggest that aircraft should fly as per planned unless for separation. Cost efficiencies are a very low priority for our rule makers. We do go out of our way to facilitate most requests.
Did you even take in the context of what I said? By all means ask. I want to lower your costs and the carbon footprint. I also want you moved along as fast as possible. It's the expectation that some have and the attitude with which it is transmitted.
but being rude about it is just plain rude
For the record, our rules suggest that aircraft should fly as per planned unless for separation. Cost efficiencies are a very low priority for our rule makers. We do go out of our way to facilitate most requests.