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Gold Coast needs an ILS

Old 29th Jan 2012, 11:38
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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A normal ILS would have a DA about the equilavent of the RNAV approaches on RW14. The problem being the hill to the north of the runway. When landing 14, you get visual at the minima, but because of the hill, the approach is offset, and in reduced visibility, the runway threshold is very hard to see (even with the strobes), and in manoeuvring to final, it is possible to have the approach become unstable, which under most SOP's means a missed approach. It may be possible to get a ILS on 32 with an overshoot similar to the 32 RNAV approach, but a ten mile ILS straight in over the coastal noise sensitive areas would cause the locals to mutiny!
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Old 29th Jan 2012, 11:44
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Why not move the airport? The current locations value would be significant if you developed it. Not sure where is suitable for a new airport though.....

Alternatively buiding a set of decent approach lights on 14 may help the cause
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Old 29th Jan 2012, 13:29
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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.

Yous lot are imagining things... needing an ILS due to rain...


Our racial stirring Prime Muppet and her muny grubbing climate adviser told us it would never rain again - they had scientific proof...


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Old 29th Jan 2012, 23:40
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Yous lot are imagining things... needing an ILS due to rain...
Agreed.
I flew in & out of there for a couple of decades, hardly ever needed to do an approach and if you did a plain VOR.DME would easily get you low enough.
An ILS would be a big waste of money.
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Old 30th Jan 2012, 11:34
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Well you must be a better pilot than most of the crews on the numerous diverts to Brisbane in the last 12 months from the GC.
And of course the stats on the increase safety of a ILS (or GLS) vs a non aligned approach aren't worth listening too, it would just be a waste of money.....
A few wheels short of a undercarriage in this case?
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Old 30th Jan 2012, 11:35
  #46 (permalink)  
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Without the aeronautical component, that car parks would be empty!
I know that and you know that, but the beancounters, they only know the bottom line
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Old 30th Jan 2012, 17:55
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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If an ILS to Rwy 14 isn't possible due to the hill on final then perhaps an offset ILS or even a Localiser type Directional Aid would work. Can't recall them being used in Oz when I was there but they're used here in the US.
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Old 30th Jan 2012, 21:30
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Offset ILS's can be implemented to avoid terrain impinging into the splay but may be a bit harder in this instance (Phuket a good example, albeit a 1.4 degree offset). The DA wouldn't be a whole lot less than your average VOR or RNAV but at least the visibility requirement would be better, which is the main reason for go-arounds at Goldy.
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Old 30th Jan 2012, 21:44
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Hey Jabawocky you're famous. They quoted you on the front page of today's
Gold Coast Bulletin.
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Old 30th Jan 2012, 22:15
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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It is obvious that no one has any idea of the process to have an ILS installed at an airport.

It has nothing to do with the airport operator.

The board of Airline Representatives (for that airport) ask Airservices what an ILS installation would cost.

Airservices do the terrain appraisal and costing (installation, lighting, ongoing maintenance, calibration). Lighting is a big cost.

The airlines are told what the increase in air service charges will be for the ILS installation. The airline beancounters then determine whether the installation is cost effective. They then inform the Board of Airline Representatives whether they want to go ahead with the installation.

So the airlines determine whether they want the ILS. Simple as that.

It has to be this way as it is a user pays system - can you imagine if a CAT III system was installed at say Alice Springs without the airlines approval they would go ballistic over the cost?
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Old 30th Jan 2012, 22:24
  #51 (permalink)  
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It is the media after all......desperate for expert opinion.

Just proves a point really

PPRuNe is a valuable source of knowlege after all
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Old 30th Jan 2012, 22:36
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Who says you can't trust Ppruners?
Isn't that right Mr Aviation expert Geoffrey Thomas?
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Old 30th Jan 2012, 22:56
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Well you must be a better pilot than most of the crews on the numerous diverts to Brisbane in the last 12 months from the GC.
I can only make a statement based on my experiences there and as I said, I didn't have to do an approach there very often. Maybe I was lucky and the other crews last year weren't.



And of course the stats on the increase safety of a ILS (or GLS) vs a non aligned approach aren't worth listening too, it would just be a waste of money.....
Again not my problem if the crews can't fly a VOR/DME approach accurately enough. I didn't find them difficult at all, in any aeroplane.




A few wheels short of a undercarriage in this case?
If you want to trade personal insults about user names to establish credibility about comments, then you have already lost the argument.
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Old 30th Jan 2012, 23:16
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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The man on ABC radio says agreement reached with ASA, work is now to start on the planning for the ILS
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 01:00
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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In your own words you have no problem at all in flying a VOR/DME approach and hats off to you. Most pilots don't.
There is plenty of evidence out there that some pilots/airlines do.
One recently to the Melbourne VOR 34 and a few stories regarding the CG Vor of late.
The numbers are in, there is no doubt ILS vs VOR, ILS wins hands down on the safety case(no surprises there). If the traffic/conditions warrants it then common sense dictates.....and that is where the argument is lost when airline bean counters are put in the mix. Thank you to Mr Mach for explaining the process.
If we can't convince the public/bean counters that an extra dollar on your ticket is worth it for a safer day then well no wonder the smart people in aviation put their money in the airport car parks and not the airlines.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 03:24
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megle2
The man on ABC radio says agreement reached with ASA, work is now to start on the planning for the ILS
Really? Why? As someone has pointed out earlier, any ILS system on 14 couldn't be a standard one thus negating it's effectiveness WOFTAM.
RNP app. the tech is proven and readily available and can have complex curved apps for noise and hill avoidance - roll out on finals 350-400' and you're in.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 04:36
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pdubby
Not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but the RNP approaches do exist for CG, and have existed for some years.

These are not published in the AIP/DAP package as they were proprietary - i.e. developed by a third party provider for individual companies under licence.

ANZ use them. And JQ were using them very occasionally a while back. I am told the reason JQ no longer use them is crew training currency, and aircraft validity (which I guess comes down to keeping the crew and the FMS current - correct me if I am wrong by all means.)

Whilst RNP approaches are in widespread use at YBBN (QF and ANZ), where an ILS exists,(and is often crew preferred over the RNP), they are strangely not in common use at CG - where they would be quite useful in the weather conditions over the past couple of summers.
which is precisely my point, the tech is out there! I think the 320s have a few limitations in this regards but virgin should be all over it!
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 04:56
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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If you have the company resources to manage it (it's not just GPS NPA on steroids), RNP-AR is the way to go for the latest jets. But if an ILS is an option ("work is now to start on the planning for the ILS") it would be a better overall solution; everybody can use it with no extra training or cost (apart from the airport fees).
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 05:59
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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YBCG RNP

They certainly are:
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...up/s10-h39.pdf

There can't be many using them though given the number of go-arounds and diversions to BN we get here.
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Old 8th Feb 2012, 16:03
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Well bugger me!

Anna Bligh confirmed that the Gold Coast will be receiving a $10 million dollar ILS this year. (Source-Gold Coast Bulletin 8th Feb 2012).
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