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Emirates runway incursion SYD

Old 10th Jan 2012, 16:11
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Runway Incursion at Sydney 05 Jan

If you don't go on the DG&P forums, you may have missed this concerning an EK A380 and a JAL 777 at Sydney. Thought it should have a wider audience, so here's a summary and a link to the discussion on the Australian PPRuNe Board.

This summary from Aviation Herald
"The A380 was instructed to taxy to the holding point to runway 16R(ight) using taxyway "Golf" and "Alpha", hoever it missed the left turn into "Alpha" and continued to roll straight foreward until it entered the active runway 16R where at that time the JAL aircraft was accelerating for take-off. Quickly the JAL-pilots rejected the take-off at slow speed and came to a stop before the A380. Both aircraft later departed to their resp. destinations without further problems."
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Old 10th Jan 2012, 16:42
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2 threads on this subject moved already, nice try, but I suspect this too will have a short life.
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 06:42
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golfyankeesierra

Exactly. Alas my point that both jobs can be tough was lost on those with an agenda.


Cactusjack

Not sure why this thread deserves your tirade against VB/VAA but I guess you think its valid.........others ......maybe not!


Vorsicht

I now know that LH Pilots fly the fastest, the furtherest, the largest, the widest, the most grueling and the most advanced aircraft and that Short Haul pilots know nothing!

I know this because Vorsicht said so.
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 07:15
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How a 2 member crew in an A380 could stuff this up is beyond me. The images of Teneriffe are still in my mind
If they were both completely rooted it would be very easy. Fatigue is very insidious and often you think you're right but you're actually not.
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 11:31
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Fatigue is very insidious and often you think you're right but you're actually not.
I apologise Ad Astra, maybe you are more fatigued than i thought
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 12:27
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SH vs LH = thread drift

JAL-pilots rejected the take-off at slow speed
Mmm, various reports of 70knots (from JL), >50knots (from ASMGCS), take your pick. Unfortunately ASMGCS replays do not have ground speed available (permitted deficiency at time of commissioning).

Thank the heavens the RWY centreline lighting is now working - how long did that take to get fixed/sorted?
More thread drift. The RWY centreline lighting was not available during the re-sheeting of RWY 16R/34L.

Quote:
How a 2 member crew in an A380 could stuff this up is beyond me. The images of Teneriffe are still in my mind
If they were both completely rooted it would be very easy.
I understand that the aircrew report was to Dubai was along the lines of “..yeah we realised (the error) and were stopping long before ATC said anything”. I understand that such a proposition in not support by the ATC audio, and that the CVR was erased on arrival in NZ.

I understand that the EK Station Manager in Sydney wasn’t advised of the occurrence (can’t validate whether what the normal practice is/should be.

I understand that ATSB determined earlier in the week that no investigation was warranted.


Stop-bars may have alerted EK earlier of the runway (ring of red) but they taxied past the existing lighting, that is, the runway guard lights. If, as it it is asserted, that fatigue was/is an issue then short of a physical barrier, nothing is guaranteed.

The piecemeal development of Sydney aerodrome into a finite amount of real estate bounded by the Cooks River, Qantas Drive/Alexandria Canal, major road networks, Botany Bay and now the massive expansion to Port Botany, the imposition of A380 operations at the airport, the lack of investment into aviation infrastructure (vs commercial infrastructure - car parks, shopping malls) has led to many less than optimal operational decisions being made and aircrew, ATC and the Safety Officers live with the consequences, day-in, day-out.

Any investigation needs to focus on preventing such an occurrence happening again. If it is additional technology, if it is standard (published) taxi routes, if it is a change to the way taxi instructions are issued to international operators, if it is ICAO compliant signage/lighting across the network, if it is more frequent painting of the taxiway line markings, if it is different coloured bitumen so that the line marking are more visual, if it is the runway guard lights on a brighter intensity, if it is more CASA surveillance - then lets find out now rather than another event in different circumstances eg heavy rain, fog, ATC/pilots not reacting quick enough to prevent the worst possible outcome.

Last edited by sunnySA; 12th Jan 2012 at 18:08. Reason: grammar
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 12:55
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Red stop bars are becoming more prolific worldwide and the LACK of stop bars in this situation will rate as a significant hole in the swiss cheese in this incident.

A proper risk assessment prior to the introduction of red stopbars (at the industry consultation) stage should have identified what the hazards associated with the implementation of them.

As usual, we learn the hard way.

If this occurred as advertised, the ATSB should definitely be investigating.
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 21:10
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Stop-bars may have alerted EK earlier of the runway (ring of red) but they taxied past the existing lighting, that is, the runway guard lights.
The runway guard lights are unusual and not particularly 'attention grabbing'. The red stop bar lights are common and long haul pilots recognise them quickly for what they are. (Obviously just my opinion).

Red stop bars are becoming more prolific worldwide and the LACK of stop bars in this situation will rate as a significant hole in the swiss cheese in this incident.
Spot on.

If it is additional technology, if it is standard (published) taxi routes, if it is a change to the way taxi instructions are issued to international operators, if it is ICAO compliant signage/lighting across the network, if it is more frequent painting of the taxiway line markings, if it is different coloured bitumen so that the line marking are more visual, if it is the runway guard lights on a brighter intensity, if it is more CASA surveillance - then lets find out now rather than another event in different circumstances eg heavy rain, fog, ATC/pilots not reacting quick enough to prevent the worst possible outcome.
100% correct and the ATSB need to be on this or we do risk the worst outcome happening.
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 22:14
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I understand that the aircrew report was to Dubai was along the lines of “..yeah we realised (the error) and were stopping long before ATC said anything”. I understand that such a proposition in not support by the ATC audio, and that the CVR was erased on arrival in NZ.
Hmmmmmm. If the reported crew account is correct, then why the hell did they erase the CVR on arrival in Auckland? Surely the crew would have wanted all the evidence available to support its position?

Also, following any incident, shouldn't the CVR and FDR be preserved as a matter of SOP?

Is there the stench of a very dead desert rat pervading this incident?
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Old 12th Jan 2012, 22:55
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Ken the aviation expert is back
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Old 13th Jan 2012, 00:05
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Not sure if "it erases itself after every flight" but given that it is either a thirty minute loop of tape which over records itself continuously or a solid state recorder with a capacity of 120 minutes, it is unlikely to still have ground information from Sydney still recorded by the time of power down Auckland.
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Old 13th Jan 2012, 02:21
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Originally Posted by Framer
The runway guard lights are unusual and not particularly 'attention grabbing'.
Agree. The old ones embedded in/across the holding point were much more effective IMO.
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Old 15th Jan 2012, 09:46
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insets?

[QUOTE=Capn Bloggs;
Agree. The old ones embedded in/across the holding point were much more effective IMO.[/QUOTE]

I think one could make an argument that the inset lights are more attention grabbing than Stop Bars. The 90m lights on TWYF and B3, B10 and L certainly stand out.

Is it possible they were texting and driving? Anyway they were lost.

CB
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Old 15th Jan 2012, 15:39
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one could argue this if one had never been out of NSW. Check out the way the rest of the world is headed on this.
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Old 15th Jan 2012, 18:18
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one could argue this if one had never been out of NSW. Check out the way the rest of the world is headed on this.
I think there is something in this. Some sort of subconscious expectation that there will be stop bar lights due to them being at most fields the A380 goes to. Can an EK A380 driver estimate how many of the A380's other destinations have not got stop bar lights?
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 12:17
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My limited understanding is that stop bar lights are a standard for airports with low visibility approaches. As Sydney does not support low visibility approaches, it is not outside the standard.

My also limited understanding is that Sydney is moving towards CAT III approaches, and that stop bar lights will be installed as part of this upgrade.

Can anyone confirm or deny this?
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 19:43
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HF3000,
Phase 4 of the GBAS (GLS) project specifies CAT III equivalency. There has also been talk of getting 34L a CAT II ILS but not sure where that project is. CAT III ILS at SYD is most likely impossible given the lack of real estate
GBAS implementation program | Airservices
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 21:34
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thirty minute loop of tape which over records itself continuously or a solid state recorder with a capacity of 120 minutes
This is ridiculous in an age of 32GB SD cards or 500 GB SSD's....
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 22:12
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This is ridiculous in an age of 32GB SD cards or 500 GB SSD's....
Quite possibly the processor(s) running the QAR/DFDR/CVR are running early windoze 8086 chips, and can't handle modern high capacity SD cards.

I know the FMS/MCDU in the 717 is slower than any computer I've owned since about 1995.
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 22:52
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Yep, Moore's Law does not apply to aviation!

Which is why you can't fit a worldwide airport database into a certain FMGC with a capacity of only a few mb....
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