Jetstar Cadet Scheme Failing To Produce Safe Pilots?
Thread Starter
Jetstar Cadet Scheme Failing To Produce Safe Pilots?
I think it's now official. We are one heart attack away from losing an aircraft because Jetstar "cadets" appear to be incompetent at landing an aircraft. This incident is in addition to the one the ATSB just reported. God knows how many others have been glossed over.
I want two fully trained and demonstrated competent pilots in the cockpit, not just one Captain and a "Learner".
I want two fully trained and demonstrated competent pilots in the cockpit, not just one Captain and a "Learner".
Jetstar cadet scheme under scrutiny
Andrew Heasley
December 15, 2011
AUSTRALIA'S aviation safety watchdog has now put Jetstar under intensified scrutiny for its cadet pilot training scheme after another botched landing attempt.
The latest bungled landing occurred at Cairns airport on a flight from Sydney on November 3, when a cadet pilot selected the wrong flap settings, the airline confirmed.
When the captain, who was flying the Airbus A320, realised his cadet co-pilot had selected the wrong flap setting, he called for the landing to be aborted.
But the cadet compounded his mistake by choosing a wrong flap setting for a second time, upsetting the aerodynamics of the airliner for eight seconds.
Fortunately for all on board, the plane was at 1900 feet and the captain had time to recover the situation.
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority yesterday shifted its vigilance up a notch.
''There is now ongoing monitoring by CASA of the Jetstar cadet scheme to ensure it continues to meet the required standards,'' the agency said.
''If circumstances change, CASA will take appropriate steps to ensure relevant safety standards continue to be met.''
The Age believes substantial effort in the safety authority is now focused on Jetstar's operations, and the agency is prepared to act on the airline if necessary.
Jetstar's chief pilot, Captain Mark Rindfleish, said the crew ''followed standard practice and discontinued an approach into Cairns after detecting incorrect flap settings''. ''Anyone at the controls of a Jetstar aircraft has the qualifications and skills to be there,'' he said.
But the incident has sparked more calls for an urgent investigation of the airline's fast-tracked pilot training scheme.
Independent senator Nick Xenophon, who initiated this year's Senate inquiry on pilot training and airline safety, called on CASA to launch an urgent investigation of the Melbourne and Cairns incidents.
''Two separate incidents just a few months apart would indicate that this needs to be investigated thoroughly,'' he said.
''I've been approached by a number of Jetstar captains that have expressed concerns about the level of training of some of the cadets.
''I'll be moving in the Senate, when Parliament resumes, for the inquiry to reconvene about these more recent incidents, to call CASA, the ATSB [Australian Transport Safety Bureau] and the Qantas group in relation to this.''
The president of the Australian and International Pilots Association, Barry Jackson, said: ''When events occur on a regular basis then there's an issue.
''They grounded Tiger for these sort of things. It seems to me to be continuing events that point to pilot training and inexperience.
''CASA's the one that needs to look seriously at these events.''
Mr Jackson said experienced first officers were baling out of [Jetstar's parent] Qantas to be snapped up by the likes of Emirates and Qatar airlines, at a rate of one resignation every two days, leading to the recruitment of inexperienced pilots.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau was notified but it chose not to investigate the Cairns incident formally, after it was satisfied that cockpit alarms were not triggered and that the plane was still at a safe altitude.
Read more: Jetstar cadet scheme under scrutiny
Andrew Heasley
December 15, 2011
AUSTRALIA'S aviation safety watchdog has now put Jetstar under intensified scrutiny for its cadet pilot training scheme after another botched landing attempt.
The latest bungled landing occurred at Cairns airport on a flight from Sydney on November 3, when a cadet pilot selected the wrong flap settings, the airline confirmed.
When the captain, who was flying the Airbus A320, realised his cadet co-pilot had selected the wrong flap setting, he called for the landing to be aborted.
But the cadet compounded his mistake by choosing a wrong flap setting for a second time, upsetting the aerodynamics of the airliner for eight seconds.
Fortunately for all on board, the plane was at 1900 feet and the captain had time to recover the situation.
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority yesterday shifted its vigilance up a notch.
''There is now ongoing monitoring by CASA of the Jetstar cadet scheme to ensure it continues to meet the required standards,'' the agency said.
''If circumstances change, CASA will take appropriate steps to ensure relevant safety standards continue to be met.''
The Age believes substantial effort in the safety authority is now focused on Jetstar's operations, and the agency is prepared to act on the airline if necessary.
Jetstar's chief pilot, Captain Mark Rindfleish, said the crew ''followed standard practice and discontinued an approach into Cairns after detecting incorrect flap settings''. ''Anyone at the controls of a Jetstar aircraft has the qualifications and skills to be there,'' he said.
But the incident has sparked more calls for an urgent investigation of the airline's fast-tracked pilot training scheme.
Independent senator Nick Xenophon, who initiated this year's Senate inquiry on pilot training and airline safety, called on CASA to launch an urgent investigation of the Melbourne and Cairns incidents.
''Two separate incidents just a few months apart would indicate that this needs to be investigated thoroughly,'' he said.
''I've been approached by a number of Jetstar captains that have expressed concerns about the level of training of some of the cadets.
''I'll be moving in the Senate, when Parliament resumes, for the inquiry to reconvene about these more recent incidents, to call CASA, the ATSB [Australian Transport Safety Bureau] and the Qantas group in relation to this.''
The president of the Australian and International Pilots Association, Barry Jackson, said: ''When events occur on a regular basis then there's an issue.
''They grounded Tiger for these sort of things. It seems to me to be continuing events that point to pilot training and inexperience.
''CASA's the one that needs to look seriously at these events.''
Mr Jackson said experienced first officers were baling out of [Jetstar's parent] Qantas to be snapped up by the likes of Emirates and Qatar airlines, at a rate of one resignation every two days, leading to the recruitment of inexperienced pilots.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau was notified but it chose not to investigate the Cairns incident formally, after it was satisfied that cockpit alarms were not triggered and that the plane was still at a safe altitude.
Read more: Jetstar cadet scheme under scrutiny
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Auckland
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When you are taught by green instructors who themselves were taught by green instructors, you will get students who are missing alot of vital knowledge that can only be taught by someone with the appropriate industry experience.
For a cadet to be taught properly the instructors have to be older guys and girls who come back to instructing after a career of flying around outside the training area. Just the way the Airforce does it.
For a cadet to be taught properly the instructors have to be older guys and girls who come back to instructing after a career of flying around outside the training area. Just the way the Airforce does it.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Southern Sun
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Two sides to every story;
Jetstar procedures as to configuration changes and checking thereof by other crew members?
Did; or if not why not?: the pilot flying check/observe the configuration change called for was correctly set at the time of configuration change?
Not a criticism of Jetstar procedures as I do not know them but I do understand cockpit procedures and that from time to time, regardless of crew experience, things break down or do not happen as they should.
Seizing upon such incidents without the full story promoting a cause belittles the promoters destroying the credibiltiy of their cause.
In the `real world' pilots are fed into airline flight decks daily with minmal experience levels (some 250 - 500hours [the same as maintenance is done overseas]) and yes incidients happen but the deserts & oceans of the world are not littered with carbon fibre & aluminium!
Jetstar procedures as to configuration changes and checking thereof by other crew members?
Did; or if not why not?: the pilot flying check/observe the configuration change called for was correctly set at the time of configuration change?
Not a criticism of Jetstar procedures as I do not know them but I do understand cockpit procedures and that from time to time, regardless of crew experience, things break down or do not happen as they should.
Seizing upon such incidents without the full story promoting a cause belittles the promoters destroying the credibiltiy of their cause.
In the `real world' pilots are fed into airline flight decks daily with minmal experience levels (some 250 - 500hours [the same as maintenance is done overseas]) and yes incidients happen but the deserts & oceans of the world are not littered with carbon fibre & aluminium!
Last edited by Dark Knight; 14th Dec 2011 at 22:17. Reason: speeeeling...& mor espeeeling
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lets hope a Jetstar Captain does not become incapacitated in flight leaving a very green FO to bring it home.
It really is not working and I believe is grossly unfair on both the Cadet and the Captains.
It really is not working and I believe is grossly unfair on both the Cadet and the Captains.
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SE Asia
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What a load of crap Sunfish. This was one incident involving a cadet. The other incident in Darwin involved someone who met all of the requirements of the the FAA imposed hours requirements and should therefore be "safe". Configuration cockups have been going on for many, many years involving pilots with enormous experience. Anyone remember a B146 nearly pancaking on a beach north of Cairns?
I am amazed that professionals who work in the industry jump on these Safety reports to try and prove a point. If anything undermines a Safety Culture wouldn't it be the fear of some disgruntled cock publicising something you self-reported?
In all of this crap there is possibly a bigger point being missed that Dark Knight has mentioned. Surely this is more serious?
I am amazed that professionals who work in the industry jump on these Safety reports to try and prove a point. If anything undermines a Safety Culture wouldn't it be the fear of some disgruntled cock publicising something you self-reported?
In all of this crap there is possibly a bigger point being missed that Dark Knight has mentioned. Surely this is more serious?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can someone clear something up for me please? The media and people in this thread keep referring to the co-pilot as a cadet. I'm guessing that's because he came through a Jetstar cadet scheme (he apparently had around 1600 hours prior to his 300 on the A320).
Is it fair to the co-pilot (and perhaps Jetstar) to keep calling him a cadet? Or is it a Jetstar cadetship requirement to acquire somewhat more than 300 hours on type before the they can do away with the "cadet" designation? If that's the case then so be it.
It just seems to me that the media are jumping on "cadet" to give punters the impression that the co-pilot was a just-out-of-school kid who had no real idea of what he was doing. He may well have blotted his copy book on this occasion and will have to face the consequences including one would assume a fair degree of embarrassment. But do we really need to humiliate him further by insisting he's a cadet if in fact he's not?
Is it fair to the co-pilot (and perhaps Jetstar) to keep calling him a cadet? Or is it a Jetstar cadetship requirement to acquire somewhat more than 300 hours on type before the they can do away with the "cadet" designation? If that's the case then so be it.
It just seems to me that the media are jumping on "cadet" to give punters the impression that the co-pilot was a just-out-of-school kid who had no real idea of what he was doing. He may well have blotted his copy book on this occasion and will have to face the consequences including one would assume a fair degree of embarrassment. But do we really need to humiliate him further by insisting he's a cadet if in fact he's not?
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Usually Oz
Posts: 732
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dghob, I retired with >20k hours after a 40-year career and was still regarded by some as a cadet. There are a few jokes around about once being something or conducting an action and that name sticks!
G'day
G'day
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Had some experience in a previous life flying with cadets from a major airline gaining industry experience in a type much smaller than the A320. The majority operated to a high procedural standard when the conditions were fine but quickly became 'situationally challenged' when faced with adverse wx or approaches requiring additional planning and preparation. As with any supervisory/training role knowing your own limits and how far to let someone else take the aircraft to a point where you can recover a bad picture is the key. This is where I think the training system in Jetstar is letting these Captains down if these cadets are out there requiring supervision above and beyond what would be considered normal in an Experienced RPT two pilot crew. I can sympathize with the extra workload being placed on the Captain in this incident and in fact all the Jetstar Captains who have to operate in this environment. To his credit he did get the aircraft out of a bad position and safely back on the ground. To quote BB during the senate enquiry, 'Our cadets are only flying with our most experienced Captains' Thank f#%k for that. I thought this was RPT not SPI (Single Pilot Interuptions).
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
It'd be nice if people took pride in passing on their knowledge, rather than belittling the abilities and background of those in the seat next to them.
You didn't become 'the Orcale' all by yourself you know!
If a Captain keels over in flight I'm fairly sure the aircraft will be landed safely, so long as they remember to ask for the into wind runway.
You didn't become 'the Orcale' all by yourself you know!
If a Captain keels over in flight I'm fairly sure the aircraft will be landed safely, so long as they remember to ask for the into wind runway.
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Fair point, it is a two way street! The guy/gal sitting next to you does have to want to learn.
Bottums Up
I can't determine whether my observations are objective or not, as I was a youngish F/O and am now an older Captain.
In my younger days, I don't recall myself or my contemporaries being as adverse to hints, and helpful tidbits, as I witness in more modern times.
In my younger days, I don't recall myself or my contemporaries being as adverse to hints, and helpful tidbits, as I witness in more modern times.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I want two fully trained and demonstrated competent pilots in the cockpit, not just one Captain and a "Learner".
Even the captain has a good chance of not being "fully trained and demonstrated competent"
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If a Captain keels over in flight I'm fairly sure the aircraft will be landed safely,
Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise.
