PERTH 6/12
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Perth Western Australia
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How does it go from a liability/saftey view point all those pax in there for that long, dvt etc, can they get up and move around etc etc?
How much booze is carried, and what about the dunny filling up
presuming a few of those aircraft arn't long range
How much booze is carried, and what about the dunny filling up
presuming a few of those aircraft arn't long range
So if there seems to be agreement (generally) that staff should stay off the ramp during the passage of a thunderstorm why is this philosophy not observed in other ares of human endeavour?
The storms were well past but aircraft could not get to a gate so sat with engines running! Three hours after the weather cleared. Why were pax not disembarked by roll up stairs and put on one of the many buses driving around?
The storms were well past but aircraft could not get to a gate so sat with engines running! Three hours after the weather cleared. Why were pax not disembarked by roll up stairs and put on one of the many buses driving around?
How much booze is carried, and what about the dunny filling up
Nunc est bibendum
The storms were well past but aircraft could not get to a gate so sat with engines running! Three hours after the weather cleared. Why were pax not disembarked by roll up stairs and put on one of the many buses driving around?
I think it is called contingency planning.
Parking - On the acres of tarmac in front of what will be Terminal WA.
Keg the aircraft were already PARKED on taxiways, 600 lane, anywhere ATC could put them. The aircraft had space on the airport but pax could not get off.
Buses - There were quite a few orange airport buses airside yesterday. I counted five at least.
Staff - Well since nothing was moving at the terminal, ramp staff MAY be available to move stairs to the parked aircraft.
Don't get me wrong, I am sure everyone was doing their best with what they had to deal with, which was a very prolonged storm but there seems to be a lack of planning to deal with these events.
The Qantas terminal was shut down last year by a fire warning system. So nothing moved. Where was the contingency planning?
Remember Sydney airport early this year or late last year.
We seem to have no plan for these events which happen with monotonous regularity. As someone said above, because QF terminal is already at capacity it doesn't take much to grind to a halt.
The irony is WAC would have done very nicely from parking charges yesterday.
Parking - On the acres of tarmac in front of what will be Terminal WA.
Keg the aircraft were already PARKED on taxiways, 600 lane, anywhere ATC could put them. The aircraft had space on the airport but pax could not get off.
Buses - There were quite a few orange airport buses airside yesterday. I counted five at least.
Staff - Well since nothing was moving at the terminal, ramp staff MAY be available to move stairs to the parked aircraft.
Don't get me wrong, I am sure everyone was doing their best with what they had to deal with, which was a very prolonged storm but there seems to be a lack of planning to deal with these events.
The Qantas terminal was shut down last year by a fire warning system. So nothing moved. Where was the contingency planning?
Remember Sydney airport early this year or late last year.
We seem to have no plan for these events which happen with monotonous regularity. As someone said above, because QF terminal is already at capacity it doesn't take much to grind to a halt.
The irony is WAC would have done very nicely from parking charges yesterday.
Join Date: Apr 2000
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I personally think that despite mother nature being the root cause, there were many lessons which could be learned from yesterday.
However whether they will be learned, given my experience at QF, is something I seriously doubt.
However whether they will be learned, given my experience at QF, is something I seriously doubt.
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Can someone explain why when you are faced with an extended delay waiting like yesterday the engines have t keep running?
From memory an A330 burns about a tonne an hour at ground idle. If we were all serious about the global warming circus, you would shut down and run on APU.
Is this possible? If not why?
Dutch Roll, How many tonnes does your flying aluminium tube of choice burn sitting around waiting for somewhere to go?
From memory an A330 burns about a tonne an hour at ground idle. If we were all serious about the global warming circus, you would shut down and run on APU.
Is this possible? If not why?
Dutch Roll, How many tonnes does your flying aluminium tube of choice burn sitting around waiting for somewhere to go?
The irony is WAC would have done very nicely from parking charges yesterday.
Gates were flung open midway through the crisis allowing free parking. Buses were put on when the taxis ran out.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Melbourne Australia
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Take care
Few years ago I had a ground engineer take a hit through the headset mic during pushback at BNE. Burnt his lips, he was off work for two weeks.
The storm was + 5nm away. Safety before schedule can be a huge pain but you cant have it both ways, not in a enlightened country/airline that strives to match the worlds best practise. Just look at the carbon tax. It all costs one way or the other. Delays delays delays. I do agree that we should be able to get things moving again a lot quicker somehow.
The storm was + 5nm away. Safety before schedule can be a huge pain but you cant have it both ways, not in a enlightened country/airline that strives to match the worlds best practise. Just look at the carbon tax. It all costs one way or the other. Delays delays delays. I do agree that we should be able to get things moving again a lot quicker somehow.
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flightfocus, craigieburn:
1) Were you there? Did you witness the fact that ATC were having to shuffle planes around Perth airport to make space for others, or to allow at short notice several aircraft whose passengers developed medical emergencies such as chest pains, pregnancy complications, and diabetic glycemic attacks to get re-prioritised?
2) Are you aware of Qantas operational policy regarding starting engines without a fireguard?
3) Are you aware of the electrical load-shedding characteristics and other technical implications of running on APU only with an aircraft choc-a-block full of passengers?
Some aircraft did shut engines down as a matter of operational necessity.
If neither of you have the professional courtesy, intelligence, or common decency to keep politics from another thread out of this discussion which involves operational matters and an unusual, difficult and complex situation, then I do not have the inclination to answer any further questions or engage in any further discussions about yesterday's events with either of you. 
1) Were you there? Did you witness the fact that ATC were having to shuffle planes around Perth airport to make space for others, or to allow at short notice several aircraft whose passengers developed medical emergencies such as chest pains, pregnancy complications, and diabetic glycemic attacks to get re-prioritised?
2) Are you aware of Qantas operational policy regarding starting engines without a fireguard?
3) Are you aware of the electrical load-shedding characteristics and other technical implications of running on APU only with an aircraft choc-a-block full of passengers?
Some aircraft did shut engines down as a matter of operational necessity.
If we were all serious about the global warming circus,
Don't worry about it, Juliars carbon tax will fix it
Gates were flung open midway through the crisis allowing free parking. Buses were put on when the taxis ran out.
Boy you people do get worked up about nothing.
This happens regularly in Asia, earlier this year I waited 2 hrs for a open gate at CLK during a Red TS warning 😄
Yes we shut down and re started later, as did everybody else hanging around taxiway Bravo.
CLK has had a TS warning system working well for years as has SIN.
We've had 400's and 777's taxy out in JFK and 8 hours later finally return to the Gate due to bad Snow falls.......these things happen.
This happens regularly in Asia, earlier this year I waited 2 hrs for a open gate at CLK during a Red TS warning 😄
Yes we shut down and re started later, as did everybody else hanging around taxiway Bravo.
CLK has had a TS warning system working well for years as has SIN.
We've had 400's and 777's taxy out in JFK and 8 hours later finally return to the Gate due to bad Snow falls.......these things happen.
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Strike 1 - You're out !!
The 5nm rule is generally a fairly well defined safety margin. But as most would know, weather doesn't necessarily play by the rule book. I personally had a colleague in the late 80's who was headsetting an aircraft. Lightning hit the tail and discharged through his headset, he never worked again, and he permanently lost all his sense of smell, taste and body temperature, by which I mean his body does not feel the elements of hot nor cold. He gets sunburnt in summer but doesn't sweat or feel the heat, he gets sick in winter and always wears a jumper to protect his chest yet he doesn't actually feel the cold. He is a permanent emotional wreck almost 3 decades later. His ears permanently ring, he has weird ass alergic reactions to seafood (only started after he was struck, and some specialists think it has something to do with metals in the fish). When I visited him in hospital after the accidnet, and for weeks later, he looked like a fish as every bare part of his body that had either rain drops or sweat drops on it when he got struck caused a burn where the droplet of water became charged/heated, hence the scale like appearance.
Later I studied meteorology and also learned that when we make the call to evacuate the ramp it is because the storm cell is within 5nm, the cell. However an electrical storms preceding anvil can be 20 miles ahead of the cell, and the anvil can actually produce a lightning strike also. Radar screens that we monitor on the BOM are roughly 10 minutes out of sync, in other words what we are viewing is around 10 mins old. If a storm is fast moving like you often get in Brisbane and it is moving at 60km p/h then you may be in more danger than you realize.
I once argued with SYD Ops Center who make the call when to evacuate the ramp. Their radar screen was showing a storm 9nm away from BNE airport yet I personally watched a bolt strike a hangar. I pulled the guys of the ramp and had to offer up a 'please explain' the next day as to why I 'unnecessarily shut the ramp without SYD Ops permission' adding around 15 mins worth of supposedly unnecessary delays in BNE. I told management to get fu#ked and yet I still managed to keep my job. An unlikely scenario in today's narcissistic environment. Screw OTP, lives come first.
People like GT are absolutely unintelligent, uninformed wastes of space. He is not Mr aviation, knows little about 'real' aviation and should should be sent out on ramp during an electrical storm with Joyce to marshall in aircraft using copper wands !
Airports are notorious for lightning strikes - Flat ground, tall lights, towers, buildings and aircraft tails, lots of metallic surfaces (saw a bolt hit a baggage barrow that was parked INSIDE the baggage room at BNE while all the rampies were huddling under cover supposedly safe, the bolt then deflected into an electrical conduit running along the bag room ceiling frying the baggage belts, lights, pretty much everything, resulting in 1 week without power, everything handled manually and a damage bill of over 100k).
The point of my mumblings? There is a damn good reason why the Tarmac is evacuated during a storm. If it is a slow moving cell/line of cells then the delay is even longer. Combine that with the other well articulated delay explanations here explaining the other compounding factors which caused an even more protracted delay and you get to see some pretty accurate facts. Naturally the media, narcisstic managers and ignorant arrogant self centered passengers will not either understand this nor care for the true facts. To them I raise a firmly elevated middle finger salute.
Later I studied meteorology and also learned that when we make the call to evacuate the ramp it is because the storm cell is within 5nm, the cell. However an electrical storms preceding anvil can be 20 miles ahead of the cell, and the anvil can actually produce a lightning strike also. Radar screens that we monitor on the BOM are roughly 10 minutes out of sync, in other words what we are viewing is around 10 mins old. If a storm is fast moving like you often get in Brisbane and it is moving at 60km p/h then you may be in more danger than you realize.
I once argued with SYD Ops Center who make the call when to evacuate the ramp. Their radar screen was showing a storm 9nm away from BNE airport yet I personally watched a bolt strike a hangar. I pulled the guys of the ramp and had to offer up a 'please explain' the next day as to why I 'unnecessarily shut the ramp without SYD Ops permission' adding around 15 mins worth of supposedly unnecessary delays in BNE. I told management to get fu#ked and yet I still managed to keep my job. An unlikely scenario in today's narcissistic environment. Screw OTP, lives come first.
People like GT are absolutely unintelligent, uninformed wastes of space. He is not Mr aviation, knows little about 'real' aviation and should should be sent out on ramp during an electrical storm with Joyce to marshall in aircraft using copper wands !
Airports are notorious for lightning strikes - Flat ground, tall lights, towers, buildings and aircraft tails, lots of metallic surfaces (saw a bolt hit a baggage barrow that was parked INSIDE the baggage room at BNE while all the rampies were huddling under cover supposedly safe, the bolt then deflected into an electrical conduit running along the bag room ceiling frying the baggage belts, lights, pretty much everything, resulting in 1 week without power, everything handled manually and a damage bill of over 100k).
The point of my mumblings? There is a damn good reason why the Tarmac is evacuated during a storm. If it is a slow moving cell/line of cells then the delay is even longer. Combine that with the other well articulated delay explanations here explaining the other compounding factors which caused an even more protracted delay and you get to see some pretty accurate facts. Naturally the media, narcisstic managers and ignorant arrogant self centered passengers will not either understand this nor care for the true facts. To them I raise a firmly elevated middle finger salute.
Last edited by my oleo is extended; 7th Dec 2011 at 21:29.
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I always thought the strobes were based on whether lightning had been detected within 5NM. So I'm surprised by many of the posts here which indicate that they are based only on weather radar indicating a storm cell within 5NM.
Anyone in the know that can clarify?
Anyone in the know that can clarify?
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HF3000
Different ports/airlines adopt different procedures in some aspects.
For example in Brisbane, BAC do not issue any storm warnings. This is tasked to the operator.
The airport does have blue lights, white lights and a siren. If you are Qantas for example, Ops in Sydne make the call, they will phone through Phase 1, 2 and 3 alerts to the Brisbane Movement Control supervisor who then manually activates either the blue or white light. Likewise, the supervisor doesn't upgrade or downgrade the warning unless advised to do so by SYD Ops.
I still think it is not the safest process because although they are monitoring doppler radar which is very accurate in itself, as I mentioned earlier, sometimes what the radar depicts is not what is actually taking place. I have seen a storm cell around 10 nm away from the airport yet it has dropped lightning bolts onto a runway or hangar, and that can only be noted if you are at the actual airport visibly observing this.
Some airlines actually have a BOM resource sit in their Ops deaprtments during hightened weather risk times of the year such as mornings in winter due to fog and afternoon/evenings during summer months due to storm season which is an additional safety defense, but again, not as accurate as standing at the airport.
See below:
I always thought the strobes were based on whether lightning had been detected within 5NM. So I'm surprised by many of the posts here which indicate that they are based only on weather radar indicating a storm cell within 5NM.
Anyone in the know that can clarify?
For example in Brisbane, BAC do not issue any storm warnings. This is tasked to the operator.
The airport does have blue lights, white lights and a siren. If you are Qantas for example, Ops in Sydne make the call, they will phone through Phase 1, 2 and 3 alerts to the Brisbane Movement Control supervisor who then manually activates either the blue or white light. Likewise, the supervisor doesn't upgrade or downgrade the warning unless advised to do so by SYD Ops.
I still think it is not the safest process because although they are monitoring doppler radar which is very accurate in itself, as I mentioned earlier, sometimes what the radar depicts is not what is actually taking place. I have seen a storm cell around 10 nm away from the airport yet it has dropped lightning bolts onto a runway or hangar, and that can only be noted if you are at the actual airport visibly observing this.
Some airlines actually have a BOM resource sit in their Ops deaprtments during hightened weather risk times of the year such as mornings in winter due to fog and afternoon/evenings during summer months due to storm season which is an additional safety defense, but again, not as accurate as standing at the airport.
See below:
- Thunderstorm Alert - Phase one (1): This is where the initial airport warning is received of possible thunderstorms. All staff are notified immediately;
- Thunderstorm Alert - Phase two (2): This is where further advice is provided that the thunderstorms are heading towards the airportand are within 16km distance from the airport. All staff are notified immediately;
- Thunderstorm Operations Shutdown Phase three (3): This is where further advice is provided that the thunderstorms are within the 8km distance from the airport and that an ‘Operations Shutdown’ must be declared immediately. All staff are notified immediately and the tarmac evacuated.
We were on the tarmac for 3 and half hours awaiting bay 9. Throughout the entire time if we could not see lighting in front of us we could certainly see storm clouds with heavy rain behind us.
On each occasion when it seemed to be clearing another cell would commence it's light show.
We kept passengers well informed with regular updates, let them use their mobiles, ran a limited cabin service free of charge and surprise surprise most passengers thanked us as they eventually got off the aircraft. This for me reinforces the notion that if people know and understand why things are happening the way they are, they can empathise and cut you some slack.
On each occasion when it seemed to be clearing another cell would commence it's light show.
We kept passengers well informed with regular updates, let them use their mobiles, ran a limited cabin service free of charge and surprise surprise most passengers thanked us as they eventually got off the aircraft. This for me reinforces the notion that if people know and understand why things are happening the way they are, they can empathise and cut you some slack.