Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011
I don't think the ATSB need lay awake at night worried the data on the recorders will be unrecoverable.
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Nice one I think?
It's a strange opening gambit, the sacrifice of two pawns. One problem with reading the game is the language and phrasing of the report
It would be far too easy to enthusiastically read too much into the report; equally easy to under read the implications, without first hand knowledge of how these sort of thing work behind the Green doors.
Mind you, I love the way the "Chambers Report" was repeatedly used by the committee; this cynical, self serving cripple of a report has come back to haunt the 'that man and dobbin' team. It seems the committee have worked out that the pre-emptive decision by McComic, ably and gleefully assisted by Wodger the pilot executioner (part time job) to crucify the other CASA boys and girls, chew up yet another AOC and vilify one more poor bugger of a pilot, all in one fell swoop has been exposed. The remarkable back flip manoeuvre seems to have been given a long hard look as well.
But don't worry Wodger there is a great pile of supporting evidence to keep you busy during the endless dark days of unemployment and the ghosts of Canely Vale to keep you company on the long, cold ride across the Styx.
If CASA legal had one ounce of sense they would immediately start an internal investigation into the doings of the Bankstown boys; before the AFP. If, for no other reason than to cover their very own collective rumps. Wodger and his inutile, dubious 'mates' have left the department flank well and truly exposed. Not just to ridicule; it would be easier (not to mention honourable) to get in first: have the answers ready; and not be dragged into yet another series of embarrassing, public events where legal is once more obliged to defend the indefensible.
The boil is lanced, now to drain the puss.
Selah.
LS. "In the subdued language of Government and Parliamentary reports, this one could best be described as "explosive".
CP "I agree with Leadsled: Some of the language used by the Committee is extraordinary", etc.
Mind you, I love the way the "Chambers Report" was repeatedly used by the committee; this cynical, self serving cripple of a report has come back to haunt the 'that man and dobbin' team. It seems the committee have worked out that the pre-emptive decision by McComic, ably and gleefully assisted by Wodger the pilot executioner (part time job) to crucify the other CASA boys and girls, chew up yet another AOC and vilify one more poor bugger of a pilot, all in one fell swoop has been exposed. The remarkable back flip manoeuvre seems to have been given a long hard look as well.
But don't worry Wodger there is a great pile of supporting evidence to keep you busy during the endless dark days of unemployment and the ghosts of Canely Vale to keep you company on the long, cold ride across the Styx.
If CASA legal had one ounce of sense they would immediately start an internal investigation into the doings of the Bankstown boys; before the AFP. If, for no other reason than to cover their very own collective rumps. Wodger and his inutile, dubious 'mates' have left the department flank well and truly exposed. Not just to ridicule; it would be easier (not to mention honourable) to get in first: have the answers ready; and not be dragged into yet another series of embarrassing, public events where legal is once more obliged to defend the indefensible.
The boil is lanced, now to drain the puss.
Selah.
Last edited by Kharon; 23rd May 2013 at 20:11. Reason: It's a dirty job - but someone has to do it.
Maybe the witch doctor can make up one of his famous brews and make it all go away next week in the Senate Committee.
He would have the secret ingredients to lead CASA from the wilderness to the promised land.
We need someone special to rely on to get us out of the boiling water before we are eaten by the savages!
Frank Burden
He would have the secret ingredients to lead CASA from the wilderness to the promised land.
We need someone special to rely on to get us out of the boiling water before we are eaten by the savages!
Frank Burden
Last edited by Frank Burden; 23rd May 2013 at 20:34.
Just finished reading the full report. 176 pages of well reasoned prose by the Committee that was a delight to read. I think a few people in Canberra will discuss it over a beer this evening and by Monday morning what will happen next is decided.
Both heads must roll.
It may be possible to find Australians with sufficient international reputation to fill the jobs, if not then secondments from FAA or other regulators are going to be needed if Australia is not to be downgraded.
"Bounty diving" at Norfolk can get the FDR's assuming suitable aviation technical assistance is available, they have already looked at it from 42 metres and I assume can go the extra five with decompression stops. There is a video on their website.
The ATSB is a basket case.
The CASA has not yet had the coup de grace, but if the good Senators get their enquiry into the regulatory reform program they foreshadowed, then CASA;s goose will be well and truly cooked.
Both heads must roll.
It may be possible to find Australians with sufficient international reputation to fill the jobs, if not then secondments from FAA or other regulators are going to be needed if Australia is not to be downgraded.
"Bounty diving" at Norfolk can get the FDR's assuming suitable aviation technical assistance is available, they have already looked at it from 42 metres and I assume can go the extra five with decompression stops. There is a video on their website.
The ATSB is a basket case.
The CASA has not yet had the coup de grace, but if the good Senators get their enquiry into the regulatory reform program they foreshadowed, then CASA;s goose will be well and truly cooked.
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"The CASA has not yet had the coup de grace, but if the good Senators get their enquiry into the regulatory reform program they foreshadowed, then CASA;s goose will be well and truly cooked."
Oh Sunny I hope and pray!! without regulatory reform there is no hope for any sort of industry in Australia, I believe even our domestic airlines will buckle under the regulatory burden, the cost base here is three times the USA, goodbye the cheap airfares, but the extra costs wont result in better service, they will be swallowed up in extra regulation.
Oh Sunny I hope and pray!! without regulatory reform there is no hope for any sort of industry in Australia, I believe even our domestic airlines will buckle under the regulatory burden, the cost base here is three times the USA, goodbye the cheap airfares, but the extra costs wont result in better service, they will be swallowed up in extra regulation.
Maybe the best way to deal with the boys club is to put a woman in charge?
Bring back Maxim Mary Schiavo. Anyone but another f8#king airline pilot.
DA said:
I think the ATSB is probably more worried at the moment that the data on the recorders IS recoverable.
And precisely why the ATSB should not be allowed to go anywhere near the recorders. The NTSB should be requested to:
- recover the recorders and extract whatever is on them, and
- publish the raw data/recordings, and
- do an analysis of and report on what the conversations and actions in the cockpit suggest about the crews understanding of the information it received, and in particular whether there were any misunderstandings and, if so, why.
I'm sure the recorders will be just fine. The AF447 recorders were OK after a crash which caused the aircraft to disintegrate and killed all on board, and after several years at a depth of 4000 m. So these recorders will be just fine after a ditching that all survived, and after a couple of years at 40m. I don't think the ATSB need lay awake at night worried the data on the recorders will be unrecoverable.
ATSB stand by their report
Safety regulators lashed over air crash failings
The Australian - 10 hours ago"We stand by our report into the Pel-Air accident and the thorough investigation we undertook to produce the report," the ATSB said in a statement. "As always ... we will give appropriate consideration to the Senate committee's report, tabled today."
The Australian - 10 hours ago"We stand by our report into the Pel-Air accident and the thorough investigation we undertook to produce the report," the ATSB said in a statement. "As always ... we will give appropriate consideration to the Senate committee's report, tabled today."
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Appoint a liquidator.
A great report, but where to now. Industry has been complaining about this kind of treatment for nearly 2 decades. The Whyalla report was never corrected and here also CAsA withheld evidence. The AvGas contamination, it took CAsA several years to respond to recommendations and that in the negative. an investigation would have shown incompetence or more likely a cover-up by CAsA.
Reprisal actions, too many to list here are a regular occurrence. As has been shown, when CAsA has no qualms about putting pressure on the ATSB, what hope has there been for the G.A.industry.
Strangely the airlines dont appear to have this problem with CAsA, why could that be when incidents are regularly identified and reported ???
Withholding information is CAsAs forte. When CAsA is challenged in the AAT or Federal Court you can be assured that most relevant information (critical of CAsA) is withheld.
Only those brave (some would say foolhardy)enough may succeed under F.O.I. to gain some limited information. Bringing the matter of withholding information to the relevant authorities is generally a waste of time. It will again be interesting to see if the Committee has better luck ? In the case of the AAT the Act requires ALL relevant information be supplied for the Tribunal to make a decision. How is a Victim of CAsA, or for that matter a member of the Tribunal, supposed to know documents are missing. It naturally relies on the (CAsA)lawyers as officers of the Court to be scrupulously (having moral integrity) honest!
What a joke! to think that many genuine people in CAsA are prepared to live with this ($$$)establishes the fact that its APATHY which makes this such a great nation. - Senate report will shape safety investigation future | Pro Aviation
Strict Liability Offence: 1,000,000 penalty points + 10 years Jail.
"Empty skies are Safe skies" nearly there.
Reprisal actions, too many to list here are a regular occurrence. As has been shown, when CAsA has no qualms about putting pressure on the ATSB, what hope has there been for the G.A.industry.
Strangely the airlines dont appear to have this problem with CAsA, why could that be when incidents are regularly identified and reported ???
Withholding information is CAsAs forte. When CAsA is challenged in the AAT or Federal Court you can be assured that most relevant information (critical of CAsA) is withheld.
Only those brave (some would say foolhardy)enough may succeed under F.O.I. to gain some limited information. Bringing the matter of withholding information to the relevant authorities is generally a waste of time. It will again be interesting to see if the Committee has better luck ? In the case of the AAT the Act requires ALL relevant information be supplied for the Tribunal to make a decision. How is a Victim of CAsA, or for that matter a member of the Tribunal, supposed to know documents are missing. It naturally relies on the (CAsA)lawyers as officers of the Court to be scrupulously (having moral integrity) honest!
What a joke! to think that many genuine people in CAsA are prepared to live with this ($$$)establishes the fact that its APATHY which makes this such a great nation. - Senate report will shape safety investigation future | Pro Aviation
Strict Liability Offence: 1,000,000 penalty points + 10 years Jail.
"Empty skies are Safe skies" nearly there.
Last edited by Stan van de Wiel; 24th May 2013 at 03:35. Reason: Strict Liability
Air safety agencies have 'full backing' despite report on Norfolk Island crash
THE federal government has declared it has full confidence in Australia's aviation safety agencies, despite a damning report on their handling of a 2009 air ambulance ditching near Norfolk Island.
From The Australian today.
Unfortunately, Look Left is right on the money. That oxygen thief Albanese really doesn't give a sh!t about the aviation industry in this country and by the time the election is over, this report will be long forgotten and gathering dust on the shelf.
WTF has got to happen before there is any action?
From The Australian today.
Unfortunately, Look Left is right on the money. That oxygen thief Albanese really doesn't give a sh!t about the aviation industry in this country and by the time the election is over, this report will be long forgotten and gathering dust on the shelf.
WTF has got to happen before there is any action?
Last edited by mightyauster; 24th May 2013 at 03:42.
"We stand by our report into the Pel-Air accident and the thorough investigation we undertook to produce the report,"
THE federal government has declared it has full confidence in Australia's aviation safety agencies, despite a damning report on their handling of a 2009 air ambulance ditching near Norfolk Island.
Perhaps if the idiot Minister pulled his head out of his arse and actually bothered to read the Report then things might be different?
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Chapter 7, page 1 says it all
Chapter 7, page 1 says it all.
(Page 90 of the Senate Report)
I feel for the poor old BASI guys, reading this Senate Report, in their nursing homes.
Someone should search a few out, and go and interview them.
ABC 4 Corners producers ?
How about "part two" to "Crash Landing" ?.
For those with long memories back to the 1970's, the old "without fear or favour" BASI reports were worth reading, and learning from. The Recent ATSB reports are not (eg: Norfolk, Lockhart River, Canley Vale, and manyothers).
Compare CASA to the old DCA ?
Let's not go there just now.
The Senate Committee Report's Recomendations are a "sighting" in the right direction, but only that, only a "sighting". They are not a "bearing", let alone a "course", let alone a "track made good".
Will they be accepted, by the parliament, the minister, the ATSB, or CASA ?
Will they be implented in actual fact ?
Will there be "RESISTENCE", with only "lip service" paid ?
Will there only be a few "adjustments" around the edges, to give the perception of "a fix" ?
SUCH ORGANISATIONS AS THESE ARE VERY ADEPT AT DEFLECTING ATTACKS ON THEMSELVES.
Besides, there will be an election in a few months.
They only need to play the waiting game.
It begs the question though, how do you fix a system so, so, so terribly broken ?
Start again, with two independent clean sheets of paper, with a demand that they never be allowed to get into bed again ?
Now who would have the balls to do that ?
The relevant shadow minister is .............. ?
(Page 90 of the Senate Report)
I feel for the poor old BASI guys, reading this Senate Report, in their nursing homes.
Someone should search a few out, and go and interview them.
ABC 4 Corners producers ?
How about "part two" to "Crash Landing" ?.
For those with long memories back to the 1970's, the old "without fear or favour" BASI reports were worth reading, and learning from. The Recent ATSB reports are not (eg: Norfolk, Lockhart River, Canley Vale, and manyothers).
Compare CASA to the old DCA ?
Let's not go there just now.
The Senate Committee Report's Recomendations are a "sighting" in the right direction, but only that, only a "sighting". They are not a "bearing", let alone a "course", let alone a "track made good".
Will they be accepted, by the parliament, the minister, the ATSB, or CASA ?
Will they be implented in actual fact ?
Will there be "RESISTENCE", with only "lip service" paid ?
Will there only be a few "adjustments" around the edges, to give the perception of "a fix" ?
SUCH ORGANISATIONS AS THESE ARE VERY ADEPT AT DEFLECTING ATTACKS ON THEMSELVES.
Besides, there will be an election in a few months.
They only need to play the waiting game.
It begs the question though, how do you fix a system so, so, so terribly broken ?
Start again, with two independent clean sheets of paper, with a demand that they never be allowed to get into bed again ?
Now who would have the balls to do that ?
The relevant shadow minister is .............. ?
Last edited by ventus45; 24th May 2013 at 04:38.
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Snip snip
Mightyauster, the answer to your question is simple - 3 smoking holes.
The report was damning and embarrassing, the Ministers reaction as well as the reaction of the two departments is pathetic.
It is time to sharpen the razor and take it to the throats of these arrogant sociopathic departments. Just for foreplay lets start with:
JMac must now go. No more tantys, aggressive reactions and outbursts of uncontrollable and unprofessional behaviour. Oh bald one you have been found guilty by the senate star chamber - time to go.
The author of the 'MOU between CASA and the AnusTSB' must go. Yes the philosophical wordsmith and 'extreme ouija board champion' must head back to the jungles and study the mating rituals of natives and the properties of hemp plants.
Marty, the 'messiah of beyond reason' must go. Yes the star Beaker must take his 30 years of bureaucratic experience and perhaps conduct risk management on Manus Island and risk rank the safety levels of seized asylum seeker boats as to their capability of joining the Australian Navy vessel fleet now that Swannny has conceded financially we are f#cked.
Executive managers of both organisations must go along with their dear leaders. It's no use executing just the leaders. Their support network of senior management who have continually spiked their leaders drinks with tautological potions, inept advice, hypothetical fantasies and the occasional vodka shot are equally accountable. Yes time to retrieve the Baygon and flush these cockroaches out of the cracks in the Furzon St walls
Albanese, well he is gone in October, farewell putz. But for the time being the trusty riding partner to The Lone Ranger must go. Yes Tonto Mrdak, the filterer of all things between the departments and the Lone Ranger must go.
CAsA Board. Oh for the love of all things sacred, this motley crew of taxpayer leaches has proved it's worth - Zero. Time for them to go. Around $750k per year to support this useless outfit who meet 4 times per year and put out an annual glossy brochure containing pretty pictures, spin and ****e. I will put my hand forward and do the following - Put out 2 glossy brochures per year, attend 8 meetings per year, advise Albanese that he is an incompetent bell-end and accept a salary of $350k per year plus a trip to Montreal. Now that is a cost saving right there.
Yes the report was damning - Incompetence, collusion, obstruction, deceit, arrogance and bullying. What great government reps?
As for the referral to the AFP, where is that smart arse Flyingfiend now? Not taunting the ills of society any longer is he?
Perhaps it will be he that ends up doing time in Club Botty for a few years with his brothers? Maybe he could share a cell with some of the ills of industry that his organisation has put out of business?
The report was damning and embarrassing, the Ministers reaction as well as the reaction of the two departments is pathetic.
It is time to sharpen the razor and take it to the throats of these arrogant sociopathic departments. Just for foreplay lets start with:
JMac must now go. No more tantys, aggressive reactions and outbursts of uncontrollable and unprofessional behaviour. Oh bald one you have been found guilty by the senate star chamber - time to go.
The author of the 'MOU between CASA and the AnusTSB' must go. Yes the philosophical wordsmith and 'extreme ouija board champion' must head back to the jungles and study the mating rituals of natives and the properties of hemp plants.
Marty, the 'messiah of beyond reason' must go. Yes the star Beaker must take his 30 years of bureaucratic experience and perhaps conduct risk management on Manus Island and risk rank the safety levels of seized asylum seeker boats as to their capability of joining the Australian Navy vessel fleet now that Swannny has conceded financially we are f#cked.
Executive managers of both organisations must go along with their dear leaders. It's no use executing just the leaders. Their support network of senior management who have continually spiked their leaders drinks with tautological potions, inept advice, hypothetical fantasies and the occasional vodka shot are equally accountable. Yes time to retrieve the Baygon and flush these cockroaches out of the cracks in the Furzon St walls
Albanese, well he is gone in October, farewell putz. But for the time being the trusty riding partner to The Lone Ranger must go. Yes Tonto Mrdak, the filterer of all things between the departments and the Lone Ranger must go.
CAsA Board. Oh for the love of all things sacred, this motley crew of taxpayer leaches has proved it's worth - Zero. Time for them to go. Around $750k per year to support this useless outfit who meet 4 times per year and put out an annual glossy brochure containing pretty pictures, spin and ****e. I will put my hand forward and do the following - Put out 2 glossy brochures per year, attend 8 meetings per year, advise Albanese that he is an incompetent bell-end and accept a salary of $350k per year plus a trip to Montreal. Now that is a cost saving right there.
Yes the report was damning - Incompetence, collusion, obstruction, deceit, arrogance and bullying. What great government reps?
As for the referral to the AFP, where is that smart arse Flyingfiend now? Not taunting the ills of society any longer is he?
Perhaps it will be he that ends up doing time in Club Botty for a few years with his brothers? Maybe he could share a cell with some of the ills of industry that his organisation has put out of business?
Last edited by Cactusjack; 24th May 2013 at 04:22.
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Originally Posted by ventus45
It begs the question though, how do you fix a system so, so, so terribly broken ?
Most, if not all industries have captured their regulators & legislators. We really have entered the law of the jungle where "might is right". Aviation is just a visible symptom (to us) of a much larger problem.
God help anyone that ends up on the wrong side of a ANY industry behemoth, you are at their mercy.
Last edited by breakfastburrito; 24th May 2013 at 04:29.
Sunfish asked:
You have your answer, Sunfish:
And for those of you who are appalled at that, Ive worse news for you: If there is a change of the government, the new government will say exactly the same thing.
Of course, they dont mean it. But their most important priority is to make the punters feel safe.
The question to me is if CASA and ATSB will try to brazen it out.
The federal government has declared it has full confidence in Australia's aviation safety agencies.
Of course, they dont mean it. But their most important priority is to make the punters feel safe.
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Quote: The federal government has declared it has full confidence in Australia's aviation safety agencies.
This statement by "someone unnamed" in the federal government, would smack to me of an attitude of total contempt for the Senate Hearings system. I see from Google that the story is getting a fair amount of foreign press coverage. Makes you want to cringe with embarrassment.
This statement by "someone unnamed" in the federal government, would smack to me of an attitude of total contempt for the Senate Hearings system. I see from Google that the story is getting a fair amount of foreign press coverage. Makes you want to cringe with embarrassment.
Perhaps if the idiot Minister pulled his head out of his arse and actually bothered to read the Report then things might be different?
If there is a change of the government, the new government will say exactly the same thing.
With all due respect, not only do I hope that is not true, for once I have some confidence in recent statements by Warren Truss, and I look forward to his announcement of L-NP aviation policy for the election.
Of course, we have some formidable aviation knowledge in the form of Senator Fawcett, and the practical aviation background of Senator Heffernan and several others should not be discounted.
Maybe this report is enough to produce another John Sharp, a (new) Minister with determination to make a difference. At least the Nats. understand about travelling in the bush.
The Minister's reaction to the report is quite predictable. The idea that there might actually be more votes in taking decisive action to clean out the Augean Stables that characterizes CASA ( and to salvage ATSB, which is "doable", and far less a problem than CASA), obviously has not occurred, or maybe it has, and the Minister's actions are the result of a very able politician's decision. Albo may be a lot of things, but a political fool is not one of them.
If you understand what an FAA downgrade to Cat. 2 would mean, it would be an absolute financial disaster for Virgin and Qantas, one such disaster component would be the immediate cessation of all code shares with US carriers.
Tootle pip!!
Last edited by LeadSled; 24th May 2013 at 05:51.
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one such disaster component would be the immediate cessation of all code shares with US carriers.
