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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

Old 28th May 2013, 22:42
  #1921 (permalink)  
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Senate Inquiry into Norfolk ditching.

PA-6.13 Mr McCormick informed the committee that the information from the Chambers Report was used to seek additional funding from the government to improve surveillance activities.
Interesting little paragraph that one

Hansard – We did look at our structure, we did look at where we needed to go forward and at changes we wished to make, and we approached the government and said, 'We need to get this on to a long-term funding strategy.' We put forward a new policy proposal, an NPP, to increase our numbers, which the government also supported, and we had, from memory, $89.9 million in long-term funding, which we are still under
Rotten to the core ? – well! who'd a thunk it?

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Old 28th May 2013, 22:53
  #1922 (permalink)  
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Is there any possible rational, ethical justification for paying for election campaign costs from the public purse?

Is there any prospect at all that we will see in our lifetimes a "keep the bastards honest" party in Australia, a party that has an even chance of achieving a majority.

(I'd vote for a sarcs led, leadie, kharon party. Sure their mums would too)

Last edited by Fantome; 30th May 2013 at 22:58.
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Old 29th May 2013, 01:50
  #1923 (permalink)  
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CASA DAS Reg Reform Video Poohtube

I actually watched the full 8:16 minutes of manure last night. What can I say but 'Lame'! Glad I had the spew bucket handy.
Some video highlights were;

• Another potential 4 years to get the maintenance regs across the line. Unbelievable. How many more millions to be spent? Lets see, 30 years!! Bloody hell, some pilots will have worked an entire career up to retirement within an incomplete system of rules and regulations that should have covered the very process and procedures that should have kept them and their passengers safe. CAsA fools.

• Big Chief Screamimg Skull mentions the term 'grown organically'! Was he referring to office pot plants? Mushrooms in the worm farm? Biochemical fuel for his Comcar (if he remembers to fill it up?
Watch out John, Senator Nash is watching!

• In his robust interview in the Board room in the ergonomicly compliant Brisbane building you can see Pot Plant Pete in the background to the right of Chief Screaming Skull. Is Pete flourishing from all the carbon output and pooh flowing from the Chiefs mouth ?

• Chief Skull mentions people's non understanding of reg writing, the legal requirements etc, and he excitedly points out that you can't just put these things out 'willy nilly'. Another shot at the intelligence of the ills of society?

• And the video, scroll to 5:31 - Jetstar flight attendant boarding the aircraft on the ramp and not wearing reflective vest or hearing protection! Obviously CAsA support this procedural non compliance by including that in the video! Will CAsA now issue a NCN? Conduct a special ramp safety audit?

I can only hope that the next version posted will be to the Hitler video on Poohtube. An overlay of Fuhrer wording in place of The Skulls voice would be
somewhat amusing and more entertaining.
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Old 29th May 2013, 03:34
  #1924 (permalink)  
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And so it begins:-

Sandilands – Plane Talking.

Self explanatory – short read, worth 60 seconds on Ben's piece, wouldn't bother with the spinning ATSB document without a bucket handy. The comments are worth a quick look.

Shame – ATSB...............

Last edited by Kharon; 29th May 2013 at 03:35.
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Old 29th May 2013, 05:23
  #1925 (permalink)  
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Ben’s QONs for Guesstimates!

§ Why is the ATSB spending money producing the so called ATSB Investigator Bulletin when it claims it can’t even afford to raise the flight data recorder from the wreckage of the Pel-Air Westwind from its comparatively shallow location on the sea floor near Norfolk Island?
§ How can anyone trust this organisation after reading and considering this report into the ATSB, and its relationship with CASA when the so-called Investigator, below, starts popping up in their email?
§ How can anyone trust a national air safety investigator that doesn’t make safety recommendations after an accident in which six people had to escape from a ditched corporate jet, a Westwind, contrary to Australia’s international air safety obligations in relation to such accidents?
§ How can a body whose chief commissioner, Martin Dolan, lost the confidence of the Senate inquiry through his dubious testimony, be considered to be under appropriate and responsible administration?
§ How is an ATSB report, which is crafted in concert with CASA, to frame most of the blame for the accident on a pilot, in keeping with Australian expectations of fair, thorough, comprehensive and diligent investigation after Mr Dolan dismissed the relevance of a suppressed internal CASA audit which found the operator Pel-Air to have been in serious breach of dozens of safety standards?
§ Why is it tolerable in Australian government for the ATSB to dismiss as irrelevant such systemic and organisational factors as a CASA audit that found that it had failed very comprehensively to carry out its duties of oversight and intervention in the Pel-Air operation, when such actions by CASA could have prevented the accident?
§ Since when can an individual be comprehensively scapegoated for the failures of two once trusted aviation safety bodies in Australia to properly ensure the safety of the public through the enforcement of rules, the carrying out of duties, and the independent investigation of accidents?
§ Whether the terminology refers to ‘the Labor way’ or coalition insistence of open, transparent and responsible public administration, why would something as rotten as the conduct of the ATSB and CASA in the Pel-Air accident be tolerated for even another day?

Why, how, how, how, how, why, since and whether indeed Ben?? All good questions that deserve answers…top stuff Ben although a somewhat lone wolf domestically….

However it would appear there is more interest media wise internationally than there is here! But then we always expected that from our apathetic MSM like we expected the same level of apathy from our totally disengaged ‘Minister for bad teeth’ and his Dept.

Here’s an interesting exercise…google the following and stand back and count the number of links to the Avweb article…

“Australian Senate: Norfolk Island Crash Investigation Could Lead To Criminal Probe”

Avweb have also now put this sordid tale to their blog page for those interested in making a comment, here is the link for the ‘insider blog’.

Quote from that blog which perhaps highlights that Ben's comments on the Senate report is not a lone opinion from a "tendentious blogger":
Systemic safety evolves from unbiased understanding of accident causes and on this point, the ATSB dragged the entire safety edifice backwards. In blaming the pilot for the accident almost entirely, it failed to account for known failings in CASA's oversight that, in an ideal world, might have shaped or at least informed his judgment or simply flat-out prohibited the flight in equipment suited to the task only if everything went just right. This kind of flawed accident investigation sows mistrust and is an absolute menace to advancing safety based on known flaws.

Last edited by Sarcs; 29th May 2013 at 07:13.
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Old 29th May 2013, 07:39
  #1926 (permalink)  
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This kind of flawed accident investigation sows mistrust and is an absolute menace to advancing safety based on known flaws.

I suspect the Australians will have their hands full fixing this because the Senate report gives the impression that it's a cultural shortcoming within the agencies themselves. At least the investigation into the investigation gives them a good start.
Norfolk Ditching
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Old 29th May 2013, 08:44
  #1927 (permalink)  
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They have just been called for an one hour.

7 senators wanting to ask questions.

They are straight into management numbers vs FOI and AWI's etc.

Getting asked lots of questions on Sky sentennel and who owns the IP.

Just stated ex southern region manager is now QA manager.

The AMROBA meeting is being discussed. The number of complaints at the meeting and after.

Ben has written his first article this one regarding Pel Air update.
Pel-Air update: Minister wants to respond with urgency | Plane Talking

Senator Xenophon asked about supporting docs relating to the Chambers report and if all of those had been disclosed.

Last edited by halfmanhalfbiscuit; 29th May 2013 at 10:32.
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Old 29th May 2013, 10:43
  #1928 (permalink)  
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Oink oink it's gravy time!

Nice one Biscuit!
Yes, Sky sentinel, another dud system that isn't working well. No need for the Senators to search too far for where it came from as everyone knows it came from a mate of one of the GWM Maybe the Senators will request a copy of the tender documents for the I.T approval? Perhaps they will look closely at who authorised the purchase or had input into the decision? Examine rhe ownership of the company who won the 'tender'? Of course CAsA would have followed a robust and rigorous program to ensure that taxpayer money was spent in accordance with the law? Otherwise the AFP could once again become involved?

And QA to be headed up by the ex southern region manager? Let me guess - the brother in law of the above mentioned GWM person? Do these individuals have no shame? No doubt a pay hike will accompany the role.
What did Mel Brooke's say in Blazing Saddles - "it's good to be the king".

I would like to see scrutiny of every promotion internally or manager brought in from the outside in the past 5 years. Look at who they flew with, who they are related to, what is actually on their CV compared to the candidates who weren't successful. It's a disgrace, a sham, a shonky outfit .

So line up boys, put out your hands and lets see if the Senate will pave our palms in gold for the next 12 months! Where to boys - Montreal, Washington, Maldives or perhaps Brussels? Seminars, conferences, lectures, bonuses, allowances, perks, troughs troughs troughs! Oh stop, I think I'm going to climax!!

Last edited by 004wercras; 29th May 2013 at 10:51.
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Old 29th May 2013, 11:11
  #1929 (permalink)  
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CASA was whipped with some pieces of wet lettuce.

ATSB are currently being whipped with the same.

Both ‘sides’ (a false dichotomy) of the political spectrum rely on the same collection of political hacks, overworked cynics, incompetents, psychopaths, breathlessly keen newbies and other hangers-on to insulate the government from political heat.

The coalition, if elected, will support Mr Dolan.

Think about that.
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Old 29th May 2013, 20:37
  #1930 (permalink)  
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Well, did you ever.

Creamy – I am going to take you task here; those lettuce leafs were not wet. I ask M'lud that our learned colleague retract the "wet" statement, it implies a vicious attack was mounted and may well mislead the jury....

Mind you, between the bloke who droned on for ever and the whining complaints on aircraft noise they did manage to waste a shed load of time, which probably suited some, very well. But enough of irrelevancies; Searle was very good, happy to allow a serious dust up between McComic (who me) and Mac Donald (yes you); but, one chickened out and anyway, no one would hold the jackets. That may have been entertaining.

The Bar Room Barristers, happily ensconced deep within the quiet oasis of the local were fairly well behaved although there was several outbreaks of popcorn throwing, booing and offerings of ribald advice. But the breathless hush that settled over the crew when Fiona's turn came around was electric; all knew the tough questions were coming; and, they did. The peels of glee and howls of delight were sustained by the motley crew well into Beakers dreary little piddle. Then, in the interests of a peaceful life, the set was turned off half way through that – the language was truly getting beyond blue reason.

The consensus: Pete the Pot Plant rules – OK and the coalition had better support him rather than some bland vegetable matter plonked in situ.

PS. Senator Nash; there was great consternation when you mentioned Pete was drying out. We trust that as an elected member of the Senate and honorary member of the BRB, you will endeavour to protect and nurture this important symbol of the "ills of society". He's really all we've got......

Taxi Minister ???.....

Ben Sandilands – Plane talking: has more patience with the – ATSB - and the –Minister - than I do.

Last edited by Kharon; 29th May 2013 at 22:23. Reason: Well, he did say wet. I'll allow damp, but wet is a gross overstatement.
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Old 29th May 2013, 21:51
  #1931 (permalink)  
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Kharon, yes Fiona wasn't too impressed with the answer to her question on notice taken CASA to task to explain where it was. They well took that QON in the end.

Was it Fiona who asked about taxi costs?

You could see the relief on the CASA faces when the time wasting questions started. Oh well next one will be under a new government with a new minister I'm assuming. Whoever it is I'm sure will have more interest in aviation than Albanese.
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Old 29th May 2013, 23:30
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"The minister wants to respond urgently to the report" is meaningless. What you think it means is that the Minister is going to require meaningful change of ATSB and CASA.

I believe nothing of the sort will be required.

The next Minister for Aviation will be encouraged to "buy in" to cosmetic reorganisation of both organisations, and after doing so is effectively "captured" - after all, he bought in didn't he? He can thus no longer take an axe to either organisation without being exposed to criticism.

Fawcett , nor anyone else with an understanding of aviation and its problems will be kept at arms length from CASA by the Abbott government because they might (horror) actually try to do something !

You will get a know nothing Minister who will be putty in the Departments hands, it's safer that way.

To put that another way, it is politically safer not "safer" as in aviation safety.

Last edited by Sunfish; 30th May 2013 at 00:01.
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Old 29th May 2013, 23:42
  #1933 (permalink)  
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Think you may be slightly off there Sunny!.....wait and see!!
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Old 30th May 2013, 00:02
  #1934 (permalink)  
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We live in hope, but I won't waste my time fantasising about possible changes.
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Old 30th May 2013, 00:47
  #1935 (permalink)  
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One of the reasons I follow the comings and goings on this Forum is to get the inside guff in a language that I can understand. naturally I am interested in CASA's attendance at the Senate Estimates. As time constraints preclude watching it live, I come to this Forum to get a review that is posted by someone who speaks my language.

However post by Kharon at #1939 is utter gobblegook. Can someone give a decent precis of what occurred or a link to CASA's appearance.
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Old 30th May 2013, 01:28
  #1936 (permalink)  
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The Hansard will be published here: Senate Committees ? Parliament of Australia
within the next couple of days.
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Old 30th May 2013, 01:37
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601; So lets get this straight, you were too idle to record it, too lazy to get the Hansard and the two Ben Sandilands pieces provided (1939) just don't fulfil your expectations; then you expect me to make it all better. Please – let me change my bags lest you dirty your dainty foot kicking my arse 'cos your too bloody idle to do some reading. Well pardon me.

Spoon feeding starts at 10 45 AM sharp.......

Last edited by Kharon; 30th May 2013 at 01:38.
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Old 30th May 2013, 06:54
  #1938 (permalink)  
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Oh dear Kharon a little bit touchy about critisism are we? Not everyone bows before your "superior" talents with the keyboard. Creamy had the decency to post a civilised response to 601s request.
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Old 30th May 2013, 12:29
  #1939 (permalink)  
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'Caesar judging Caesar' and 'high impact vs low impact'??

Err...back to the thread perhaps??

The hardworking Hansard boys'n'gals are obviously having probs deciphering the great Fort Fumble bullyboy debate and as a consequence have only released the more sedate deliberations and questions after the dinner break...featuring the great thick skinned mi..mi..mi..Beaker!!

Note: Whatever we think of Beaker you've got to admire an individual, who'd have trouble lying straight in bed, that can still front up and continue to stare down perhaps his biggest critics! Come on Minister or someone just put the poor bugger out of his misery...

Anyway back to the Hansard that is relevant to the thread:
Senator XENOPHON: So you have not reconsidered your interpretation of ICAO annex 13 in relation to the retrieval of the cockpit voice recorder in the Pel-Air ditching?

Mr Dolan: More broadly speaking and specifically to that question, the recommendations that came out of the committee's report as they referred to the ATSB as an independent agency will be reviewed by the commission of the ATSB—me and my fellow commissioners—so it is not just a decision for me but for the three of us acting collectively in accordance with our legal responsibility.

Senator XENOPHON: In the financial year that the Pel-Air ditching occurred, you were within budget, weren't you? You were not over budget at the end of that year.

Mr Dolan: We had a surplus at the end of that year, correct.

Senator XENOPHON: So you cannot say that the decision not to retrieve the cockpit voice recorder was due to budgetary constraints, because by the end of that financial year you still had a surplus.

Mr Dolan: I still had to have regard to the likely and projected costs of recovery, what my available resources were and what I needed to do with them.

Senator XENOPHON: It is another jurisdiction, but I think the ATSB is involved in Indonesia and does provide assistance. In the recent crash of a Lion Air 737 off Bali earlier this year, the cockpit voice recorder was retrieved at a great cost and difficulty even though the crew survived, because annex 13 requires it and the international community expects it. Is there any possibility that you will reconsider the decision not to retrieve the cockpit voice recorder in relation to the Pel-Air incident?

Mr Dolan: There is a possibility—in fact, there is the certainty—that the commissioners will reconsider it. That is part of our review of the recommendations of the committee. Once we have done that, we will report back on the results of our consideration.

Senator XENOPHON: And when do you think that will be reconsidered?

Mr Dolan: At this stage—and I need to have further discussions with my fellow commissioners—we have a scheduled formal commission meeting on 24 July. At this stage, that is when we would expect to consider all the recommendations of the committee.

Senator XENOPHON: I think Senator Edwards raised this during the inquiry. Is there a possibility that ATSB will consider reopening that investigation based on the findings of the Senate committee report?

Mr Dolan: We have a recommendation in front of us from the committee that says that we should do that and we will have due regard to that recommendation.

Senator XENOPHON: The committee has criticised the ATSB in relation to its report on the Pel-Air ditching. You are now in a position to reconsider whether you ought to reopen the investigation. Do you think it is appropriate that an independent person outsourced by the ATSB—an aviation expert—make recommendations as to whether it ought to be reopened given that there is a fundamental conflict? It is sort of like Caesar judging Caesar in the context of what ought to be done with respect to reopening the investigation.

Mr Dolan: I hear what you are saying, Senator. A matter obviously I would have to discuss with my fellow commissioners is what information and advice they may wish to rely on in reconsidering the decision that has been made.

Senator XENOPHON: Do you think it is appropriate that there be some independent assessment as to whether the investigation be reopened given that there would be, on the face of it, an apparent conflict with the board effectively having to make a call as to whether it should be critical of its previous report?

Mr Dolan: No, I do not. I see that our responsibilities as the commissioners of the ATSB in meeting the functions of the organisation are something that we are required to appropriately consider. What information we draw on to make those considerations I think is a matter for us.

Senator EDWARDS: Are you seriously considering judging yourselves on this information again?

Mr Dolan: We are seriously considering weighing all the information that has been available through the Senate committee and other material that might come to light in making our decision as we are required to do under our legislation.

Mr Mrdak: Clearly these are matters which the government will need to consider in the light of the Senate committee's report.

Senator EDWARDS: Sure, I am trying to give you some guidance.

Mr Mrdak: We do appreciate that. Mr Dolan is quite correctly putting the position of the commission regarding its legislation. The matters that have been raised in the report and the issues both Senator Xenophon and Senator Edwards have just raised are matters that we will put to the minister as part of the government's response.
That Senator Edwards is priceless the few times he has stepped in, remember.. "Mea culpa after mea culpa..." oh way back when??

Hmm just thinking on 'high impact vs low impact' and Robo helos...something in there me thinks??
Senator XENOPHON: Thank you. I want to ask Mr Dolan to take something on notice. Going back to the R44 accidents that occurred in 2003, 2006 and 2008, my understanding is that four people died in each of these accidents, so 12 in total. Can you provide information on notice as to whether they were categorised as high-impact accidents and whether there was an appropriate engineering or other expert assessment undertaken as to whether retrofitting of the aircraft with the safety bladder for the fuel tanks would have made any difference?

Mr Dolan: I can say in each of the cases there was no direct consideration given to the retrofitting issue, which was a subsequent issue from Robinson Helicopter. We can certainly give you the information that relates to our assessment essentially of the survivability questions related to those three accidents.

Senator XENOPHON: Which will go to the issue of how high the impact was et cetera. Thank you.
Doin a Kelpie!

Last edited by Sarcs; 30th May 2013 at 12:36.
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Old 30th May 2013, 12:55
  #1940 (permalink)  
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Lookleft, you truly are one of the most pride filled arrogant Posters I have seen in some time. Pull your head in and grow up.
Kharon may be somewhat unique in his approach or speech, but so what, we aren't all robots. The bloke has put in tireless amounts of work to expose the ills of our industry, with the goal of getting the system fixed once and for all, which unfortunately includes highlighting how fu#ked CASA, ATSB and the Government are.
If you jump on line and throw mud expect to have it thrown back, and when that happens please don't act like a skirt.

Sarcs, spot on mate - back to the topic. The show ain't over til the fat lady sings.
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