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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

Old 8th Mar 2013, 22:01
  #1261 (permalink)  
 
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Kharon, solid work for you. Take 2 chocolate frogs. But be warned, you may now also reap Looklame's wrath and be accused along with myself and Frank as being a 'wannabe', an expert on FS!!
Oh Kharon and Frank, my oh my how much we are missing out on, sitting and playing FS while the 'true experts' like Looklame cruise the skies.

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 8th Mar 2013 at 22:04.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 22:34
  #1262 (permalink)  
 
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So Frank your actual contribution to try and bring about change to the Australian aviation system is zero as well?
If you don't laugh, you cry.

They, (you know, them), have had 23 years to bring about change and failed miserably. What makes you think we can improve the situation when it is run by fiat and despots.

Close the joint down and start again may help but it would be cheaper to subcontract the role to someone like The Kiwi's who appear to know what they are doing in aviation, or sell the whole outfit to The Mafia where we'll all know exacty what to expect and where we stand in the big scheme of things.

Last edited by Frank Arouet; 8th Mar 2013 at 22:36. Reason: Getting the OK from the local branch.
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Old 9th Mar 2013, 20:35
  #1263 (permalink)  
 
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Yes and yes, with a sprinkling of cryptic waffling

Lookleft, your comments got me thinking over the weekend old timer. Thinking of what you may ask? Well thinking about your confident robust 'yes and yes' statement!
So I thought to myself 'perhaps Lookleft is indeed a man of integrity, intelligence and a man brimming with testicular fortitude' and indeed did make a submission to the senate?? Anyway my research was lengthy, and I am slightly confused but maybe you can help me out here because it would seem there are some cryptic comments in one of the 18 senate submissions. You see one of the submissions (if you do your research I am confident you will find the one) has a large amount of, I guess, egotistical waffle, but the submission is made containing the individuals personal thoughts on the Norfolk ditching, but the submitter admits he did not fully research all the CASA and ATSB work in relation to this matter!
How odd? This is all very cryptic. Perhaps with all your experience in human factors and the like you could give a brief summary as to what all that means?
Thanks old timer.

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 9th Mar 2013 at 20:38. Reason: Looking left then looking right before crossing the aviation highway
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Old 9th Mar 2013, 21:28
  #1264 (permalink)  
 
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Oleo - come down this arvo. Gobbles got loose last night with the chain saw again. Minnie crash tackled him before he got off the boat, seems somebody's goat had gotten into his beloved pineapple patch. The umpires wanted to issue Minnie a yellow card, but sense prevailed. Anyway, it seems the 'flesh eating slug repellent' Gobbles was using violently disagrees with goats, so honour was satisfied.

Now then, P7 a.k.a. TOM is on his way here with a fresh scandal pizza and some home brew which he swears is worth getting out the best pots for. We shall see: the ale is always superb, but just lately his pizza shop de jour leaves something to be desired. Perhaps he's found a new one.

Anyway, Minnie has made goat pies and savoury pineapple turnovers for afters. Just love a lazy Sunday; ale, afternoon tea and Bankstown scandal. 1530 for 1600 if you can get that ancient hot air balloon thingy of yours going. "K".

Last edited by Kharon; 9th Mar 2013 at 21:30.
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 04:11
  #1265 (permalink)  
 
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Lookleft, more blah blah. Fool.
So we've gone from this to this:

Lookleft, your comments got me thinking over the weekend old timer.
In a way I suppose I should be flattered but in reality you probably are worried that maybe I might know what I am talking about. But then you have to go and spoil all this new found bon homme with:

You see one of the submissions (if you do your research I am confident you will find the one) has a large amount of, I guess, egotistical waffle, but the submission is made containing the individuals personal thoughts on the Norfolk ditching, but the submitter admits he did not fully research all the CASA and ATSB work in relation to this matter!
If its full of egotistical waffle it would probably be something that you have put in but then I forgot you don't actually want to participate in the process you just want to snipe from the sidelines.

You remind me of those parasites that infest all aviation organisations called pilot haters. Never actually managed to be one but you feel you have enough knowledge to disparage those who are. At least you have finally managed to put in a post that is not full of references to pizzas and pot plants and for that we should all be grateful.

Far from your oleo being extended I think its more likely shoved that far up your APU exhaust that its protruding into your avionics bay!
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 04:55
  #1266 (permalink)  
 
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Two bob's worth for 5 cents

I've never seen a personal pissing competition on Prune end up any way other than thread closed, discussion ruined and the participants looking slightly foolish. Get a room boys; get on the PM's, use a heliograph, smoke signals or flags; but don't bring this shabby behaviour onto a useful thread, unless of course you wish to derail it or have the topic closed. Knock it off FCS.

Well - can't think for the bloody racket.
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 05:05
  #1267 (permalink)  
 
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Couldn't agree more K but when hand grenades get lobbed into one's trench the response is not to turn your back and ignore it! If however the hand grenades stop coming then no response is required. Just defending my tiny patch of the frontline.
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 08:48
  #1268 (permalink)  
 
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Hempel

Got a feeling the Hempel inquest report is due this week?
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 09:28
  #1269 (permalink)  
 
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I agree with you LL. There's a lot of smug chest-beating and other histrionics in most of the recent posts in this thread.

When the Senate Committee publishes a report full of sound and fury, signifying nothing, changing nothing, and gathering dust in the wake of an election campaign, what will we hear then?

At most, Mr McCormick will go.

And that will change absolutely nothing.
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 10:20
  #1270 (permalink)  
 
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..................and then there will be a major hull loss with concomitant loss of lfe.......to be blamed on the pilot.

...............and then there will be a second and a third before the public twigs...........................
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 10:26
  #1271 (permalink)  

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At most, Mr McCormick will go.

And that will change absolutely nothing.
Never a truer word was spoken!

PAIN_NET, I can set up a Poll but I think your proposed questions preempt the Inquiry outcome? And if the Poll asks those four questions of the group posting to this thread, the result will be obvious, overwhelming support for question 4.

1) The inquiry has revealed both CASA and ATSB acted correctly, need only make minor administrative and procedural corrections, completing this process internally.

2) The inquiry has revealed a need for an overhaul of both CASA and ATSB procedures, protocols and methodology for incident investigation and reporting. This to be completed by audit through an independent external NAA.

3) The inquiry has revealed deep, systemic failures and fault lines within the existing structure. The perceived breaches of various Acts requiring an independent Judicial investigation into the CASA ATSB interrelationship.

4) The inquiry has revealed that Pel Air inquiry was an aberration. The entire matter to be re examined, from the beginning; independently, by a credible, qualified team reporting directly to the Senate Committee.
And some of you - pull your heads in, stop playing the man and debate the topic, or we'll start deleting posts and if necessary, thread banning users.
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 11:10
  #1272 (permalink)  
 
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Peace pipes, hand shakes, group love and even a friendly grope.

Biscuit, I heard some interesting chitter chatter this evening while indulging in an Irish meal and a few robust pints of that delightful drop they call Guinness.
My associate tells me there has been a lot of discussions in Spamberra about the impending Hempel report. The back room discussions allegedly have been very very robust so it will be interesting to see what it says.
Same source isn't so sure it will be released within the next month, but can't confirm this, so who knows. Rumour also has it that FF will be bang more nails into a certain FNQ operators coffin over the coming weeks, and, FF has its sights on yet another operator (unnamed) and we should all 'watch this space'! Again, all rumour, so in theory this would be the correct place to drop this info as some of these ongoing and/or impending actions are being somewhat 'defined' by the senate inquiry. Interesting.

'Safe skies are loving skies'

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 10th Mar 2013 at 11:14. Reason: Trying to prevent some haggis being expelled
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 19:14
  #1273 (permalink)  
 
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Creamie not sure I entirely agree with your forecast Senate result. The DAS was going and anyway; if he was ever truly 'there' as part of the iron circle. This group of Senators appear to understand the deeper implications of the Pel Air incident and they don't give the impression that they are simply looking for a donkey to pin a tail on (spoiled for choice).

Hempel and Skymaster (Canley Vale) are due for more attention, not within the ambit of the current inquiry I know; but, in their own way significant and further highlight just how out of shape the CASA administration is. No doubt you have been reading through some of the proposed new 'rules', they are worth a public outcry for bad drafting alone.

I do sincerely wish I knew how to fix things up so the system could be useful, sensible and clear; but I fear the rot is too deeply entrenched to be cured without radical surgery. If the current Senate Committee can't, don't or won't make the much needed changes this go around, then the next one will have to or the one after that.

Anyway back to the cryptic crossword, a nice cup of tea and another day in aviation paradise, trying not to get goaled.

Last edited by Kharon; 10th Mar 2013 at 19:24. Reason: Carefully remove any PP reference.
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 21:15
  #1274 (permalink)  
 
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Hempel and Skymaster (Canley Vale) are due for more attention,
Ah yes the many other skeletons in the closet...and don't forget the ATC boys'n'gals apparently the FF GWM King pin Hoodoo Voodo and Beaker's bureau are also doing them are huge disservice.

As "K" said we're quite spoilt for choice...however since UITA has lit up the BH thread...hmm and I know I found some juicy morsels while sifting through the fossilized pony pooh I dug up last time when big bad bazza was in the spotlight...no BH it is then Canleyvale......then blah..then blah..!
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 22:03
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This group of Senators appear to understand the deeper implications of the Pel Air incident and they don't give the impression that they are simply looking for a donkey to pin a tail on (spoiled for choice).
The only way this group of Senators can make a real difference is if their party gets elected and the Transport Ministry is allocated to a politician who is serious about change and is prepared to accept any or all recommendations the current committe makes. A major flaw in the current arrangement is the lumping of aviation in with all modes of transport and regional services. It is then a minor part of the Minsters portfolio and the attention it gets is commensurate with its profile. The votes for the Minister and by default the government is in the Regional Services part of the portfolio. Until aviation has a higher profile within the government then any recommendations from the Senate are treated with the same two page contempt that the last Senate report received.

Aviation only gets a higher profile by either: Someone like Senator Fawcett being made Minister (unlikely given its position in cabinet) or TV screens full of mangled metal and a major airline's logo on the tail.The media are more interested in Senator X position on poker machines than his position on aviation.
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 23:33
  #1276 (permalink)  
 
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Triplets

Kharon, Skymaster, Pel Air and Transair particularly contain similar 'behind the scenes' issues that have already been highlighted previously, but safety (lack of), complacency, training and poor culture have been sighted as issues within all 3 operators at the time of their accidents. Although PIC's have received the majority of the scrutiny, it is the underlying issues similar in nature which causes the most concern.
You see, in the USA when Colgan crashed it brought to the fore a number of issues that were out there in industry which contributed to that accident. As a result, changes were made and the birth of HF really escalated.
But in AUS, you have a number of major systemic issues exposed by these accidents with what result? Heads in the sand and deflection.
Pel Air had a 'special audit. The results = pony poo
Skymaster also had a 'special audit' done. The results = pony poo.
Transair, after the accident they too received special audits, the result = pony poo.
All three operators had been previously subject to CASA audits, yet it was only after the accident that in-depth issues were uncovered. Kind of makes you wonder that had CASA's surveillance and auditing been of a quality standard maybe some of these accidents would never occurred.
Actually it doesn't make one wonder, it is pretty obvious that the Regulator had been doing a completely pi#s poor effort. But that is where we used to have the ATSB, the 'one you could trust' produce excellent investigative result which more often than not cited what we all know - the Regulator was not doing its job.

Maybe the Senators will kick a goal, maybe they won't. But most who work in this industry are in agreement that if the system is not fixed soon it will lead to a complete failure. A giant smoking hole is the next move on the chess board.

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 10th Mar 2013 at 23:42. Reason: Slightly distracted by a warm sunrise, the some JetA1, an aircraft with minimal MEL's and only half a pax load. It's a good life.
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 23:51
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Sad, but probably the truth LL.
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Old 11th Mar 2013, 00:36
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MoiE:

A giant smoking hole is the next move on the chess board.
And my guess is that it will be a medium jet full of fly - in fly - out mining industry breadwinners.
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Old 11th Mar 2013, 00:45
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Sunfish, I am more optimistic. I was thinking something like an RPT flight with a lot of Pollies onboard.
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Old 11th Mar 2013, 12:06
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One for the memory books, Flyingfiend vs All

On a lighter note,

A trip down memory lane, to the days when our mate Flyingfiend would post. Good ol days when 'robust discussion' was in it's prime!

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...te-here-5.html
Gross stupidity
_____________________________________
Well, well well; I go away for a couple of months and look what has happened here!
The usual 'CASA' bashers up to their old tricks: pull something out of the air, post it on PPRuNe, mix in a few abusive mates, wait a few posts (preferably until there is a new page of posts) and you can cook up a case where you quote yourself as a harbinger of FACT!

Where is 'CASAWEARY'? Is he/she still worried about the federal police?

Anyway, I am not interested in CASA, it is the intellectual fraud that gets to me about this.

But lets see what this is all about. Off to the Senate with a petition are we?

Well, if we look at the numbers that are in the public domain:

1. Pilots in OZ: approx 30,000.
2. LAMEs in OZ: approx 7000.

On the top line of the equation: your petition supporters, add in those who 'fear retribution' for good measure and what do you get with this recipe?

A dissatisfied percentage of .7%!!!

It would be a total waste of my taxes for the Senate to cough up for an enquiry.

Plus, there are some things that the odd (no pun intended) person of the more vocal variety here may have to consider (I could be wrong, I don't work in absolutes):
e.g. police still considering very serious charges over the death at night of a single pilot into Botany Bay from some time ago;

CASA finding out about a certain Wilga that is now in Boonah that EVERYONE knows had an illegal fuel modification done to it sometime by someone when the aircraft was in North Queensland (not done well though, it leaked)

And lastly

Some person has chosen to vilify practicing lawyers.

Oh dear; no other comment required.

So, I agree; things could be better but it may take more horsepower from those pursuing it than has been demonstrated here.

Oh and don't forget, when you reply remember to move rapidly to attack me rather than debate the issues.

FF
Oh that naughty Flyingfiend, so wily, so mischievous, please come back from Montreal. The boys are out in the playground and we are looking for an extra player to join the team. What do you say?

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 11th Mar 2013 at 12:13.
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