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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

Old 7th Mar 2013, 19:03
  #1241 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
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The Gerbil syndrome.

At the Bar Room Barristers last evening the topic was, what sort of inquiry would best serve the Industry. Cost v benefit and consideration of both domestic and international fallout was discussed in a fairly robust, although sanguine manner. Clearly, something needs to be done; and, importantly needs to be seen to be done.

In the end one of the several options discussed became the BRB choice. The 'lads' thought maybe (just maybe) the troops on PPRuNe had an opinion, so I agreed to ask.

Options 1 and 2) - A Royal Commission: or, Judicial Inquiry into CASA and ATSB.

Voted as being, too slow, expensive, 'general' and historically; not overly effective. Both are viewed as a blunt instrument; a vague, 'wide', broad brush enquiry could drag on for nearly as long as the regulatory reform program and probably be about as effective. CASA are veterans at avoiding flack during these stage managed events. (Long list available on application).

Option 3) - A 'surgical', narrow scope, independent investigation by IOSA (ICAO) qualified auditors. Centred on the actions, facts and circumstances surrounding the handling of the Pel Air fiasco. Investigate the "investigation"; audit the "audits"; test the subsequent actions. Clearly define just who did what to whom and who paid. Tight focus on the originating (Sydney) office, the actions of the manager responsible for running the Pel Air "Audit and investigation", the reporting of it and the degree of ATSB involvement in the matter would yield stellar results. The great "Townsville Office" debacle in Qld which Byron (bless) sorted out, was very effectively conducted in this manner.

We all agreed, this approach would provide a relatively inexpensive solution which could be executed with some degree of speed. The investigation would provide an 'in-depth' analysis of exactly what went on behind Oleo's famous "Chamber door". Such an investigation would produce 'hard', believable evidence; one way or the other, offering the Senate Committee a stable platform from which to generate meaningful recommendations.

Cheap, effective and cheerful.

A side benefit is that the 'honest' ATSB and CASA folk in other offices would not, at least initially be dragged into the embarrassing mess, which we believe can be attributed to the handiwork of only a few people. It must be stated that although only hearsay, there have been for a number of years now, horror stories leaking out of the Sydney region, all related to local management requirements impacting on the local CASA team. Perhaps there will be an opportunity at the inquiry to have the "Bankstown Stories" examined at the same time. Now there's a happy thought.

Anyway you're all big enough, ugly enough and old enough to decide; but, that's the BRB's two bobs worth. What say you ????.

PS. I went for the 'tar and feathers' option, narrowly defeated - but it is a democracy and I can dream. Yuk, yuk, yak.

Last edited by Kharon; 8th Mar 2013 at 01:00. Reason: Waiting for the fast bowler & missed a bit.
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 22:43
  #1242 (permalink)  
 
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Gerbils, CASA and option 3

Kharon, the title of your last post containing the word 'Gerbil' conjures up all sorts of disturbing thoughts. I can also assure you that no Gerbil ever made it behind the Green Door!
But your option (3) appeals to me, even though it does not contain waterboarding or electrodes attached to (small) genitals.

Halfmamhalfanzacbiscuit, the SOB appeared to be making inroads into improving safety oversight, however the Manager was reasonably approachable and somewhat younger than his direct report - the Deputy DAS. This Manager, along with the 'Hooded one' were the only two capable of delivering some outcomes, however the apprentices were growing stronger than their Masters so the Sith Lords took away their powers. Not an uncommon event in the world of the CASA. In fact CASA is one of the only organisations in which Silvertailed pensioners wield significant power, except of course Gloria Jeans on pension payment day each fortnight, where their power to force change by way of reduced coffee prices by way of coupon is an amazing event to behold.

'Safe skies are completely restructured skies'

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 7th Mar 2013 at 22:48. Reason: Researching the link between Gerbils and P.Swayzee.
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Old 7th Mar 2013, 23:53
  #1243 (permalink)  
 
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This thread seems to have become a depository for all sorts of people with plenty to say with supposed inside knowledge and an understanding of how the "system" works.Of course you know who you are. My question to you is-have you provided submissions to the Senate and are you prepared to back this up with an appearance before the Senate?

If the answer to the first part of the question is yes then you have my whole hearted admiration. If the answer to the second part is no then maybe you should reconsider as you seem to have a lot of info they would be interested in.

If the the answer to both is no then all you are doing is blowing smoke up your own backside by posting a constant stream of cryptic waffle pretending to be more important than you really are.

PPRuNe is an interesting forum but it is never going to change the way various government agencies do business if the information and insight you possess only makes an appearance on these threads.

And before the stones get hurled, yes and yes.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 00:36
  #1244 (permalink)  
 
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That'd be a yes..yes for me too Leftie old son! And option 3 is a good choice "K", you open up one festering, corrupt rathole then it tests the veracity and sanitary procedures of all the others!

ps And a choccy frog to each of the members of the BRB. It's amazing what you can come up with over a few coldies!

Last edited by Sarcs; 8th Mar 2013 at 00:44.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 00:55
  #1245 (permalink)  
 
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"PPRuNe is an interesting forum but it is never going to change the way various government agencies do business..."

Would have to disagree slight there old bean.
The vitriol hurled at Dom James when this initially happened was nothing short of astonishing!
Private pilots who have mates who have airline pilots with an opinion, various staff members of various departments, FBO clowns and the 'Lear jet Captains"... all had an opinion and posted it on here. Funny how a lot of those opinions seemed to make their way into the corridors of power!!!
The fact this forum is public contributed somewhat to the shambles!!
Don't bother to ask how I know...I just do, though Sarcs, Kharon and others will certainly have a good idea where I'm coming from!
I'll ask it again...when are the individuals who unloaded on the lad on this forum without a scremnent of a clue as to what was happening, going to apologise to Mr James?!?!
Because really, that's what this is all about. A bloke getting a fair go.

Last edited by GADRIVR; 8th Mar 2013 at 03:03.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 01:09
  #1246 (permalink)  
 
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OK, so now that Hoodie's role is advertised in the Australian, lets have some nominations.

It would be nice to think that they were nominations of folk that exist outside of the goon show etc., but I fear I'm in a dreamworld on that wish.

I'm genuinely interested to hear who fellow PPruners believe may add value to the CASA ranks and make headway in positioning the organisation as an industry stakeholder that commands respect.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 02:48
  #1247 (permalink)  
 
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Good catch UITA!

I especially love these bits (my bold)...
McCormick's astonishing reply - as reported by Australian aviation reporter Ben Sandilands - was that McCormick did not consider the information relevant since, the accident was entirely the fault of the captain.

Though you probably don't need them, let me repeat that with italics; entirely the fault of the captain.

I was still trying to fathom how anyone with the title "director of aviation safety" could utter those words when I read his further rationale. The information was withheld from the safety board so as "not to contaminate its decision making." Yup, if you keep information from investigators, it won't affect their decisions, and that's what we call uninformed decisions. Most folks try to avoid them.

Between the ATSB's skim-the-surface conclusion in its probe, and CASA's retro-style, blame-the-folks at the pointy end of the accident, something very strange is going on in Australia's air safety world. When the guys with the pocket protectors launch in with the double talk and the politicians start to sound reasonable, that's upside down, no matter what side of the equator you're flying on.
Oh and Karen Casey crops up again....so FF and ATSBeaker here's another...
Reality Check..
Reality check. There is a current Senate inquiry into NGAs ditching that has alleged collusion between the ATSB and CASA, big no-no for that one. The other disgrace is the covering up of important documents that would have affected the reports' outcome quite remarkedly.Facts are emerging rapidly that suggest the above mentioned and more. For one to state that the ATSB report is accurate is dangerous and ignorant, not smart for air safety.
I survived that ditching. The experience of it all, I will leave to your imagination, hint...life threatening, terrified, sharks, freezing.
What has been most disappointing to me in the aftermath besides physical disability, pain and scoring a mental illness, is knowing that the airline I was on were incompetent and sadly two very important Government body leaders have lied to me. An extremely bitter pill to swallow.
I owe my life to an exceptionally difficult ditching considering the conditions, pitch black, storm, high swells etc to the skilled, calm pilots. I owe my life to fighting with all my might.
I now fight for the truth to get air safety right here in Australia. I advocate this for the public, my loved ones fly too.
I will not fly again until there is a re-structure of both parties and honest, evaluation and implementation of safety are practiced by leaders that are willing to learn.
I am not afraid of dying in a plane crash, I am scared of surviving again and living with the physical, psychological and deceitful amount of grief that I and others have endured over the past three years and four months.
There is a much bigger picture beneath the pieces of the bits of connecting puzzle.March 6, 2013 at 11:29 AM
Reality Check over...

No option 3 will do..along with a full and frank review of the now infamous accident investigation and dodgy final report by an independent, properly ICAO accredited, accident investigation body!

Last edited by Sarcs; 8th Mar 2013 at 03:19.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 04:42
  #1248 (permalink)  
 
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One of the crowd....

YES and yes. And hopefully at the end of it all there will be blood xxxxx cross that out, I mean change.
If not.....???

Concur. Pel-air investigation, with black boxes lifted, needs to be done with an overseas 'cold case' group. No agenda, no conflictions, no arses to cover.
To find, as the good nurse wants ...and deserves THE TRUTH.
Is that so difficult?
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 04:46
  #1249 (permalink)  
 
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Step right up FAA and read all about it!

Lookleft, blah blah and blah. This is a rumour network, don't come on here asking questions of others. Some have graciously answered your question, so you are fortunate, I am sure many others will ignore you or PM you a reply which sounds similar to 'get stuffed'.

That's What She Said, the rumour on the street is that 'the Hooded ones' position will go to one of CASA's purported bald bullyboys, Herr Campbell, or to the former SSS who is now JQ's Safety Manager. All scurrilous rumour of course.

UITA very interesting article. Sadly it makes us look like a complete bunch of aviation buffoons. Hopefully the article will do a follow up report on our inept Minister presiding over all this manure. Pity they didn't dig up a photo of the Skull in his Friday Hawaiian shirt along with veins popping out of his forehead! Then again, the reporter may want to interview the Voodoo Doc instead and listen to hours of PhD littered waffle and folly. The kind of interview that would have a reporter wishing he was interviewing something more interesting like a pot plant!

Sarcs, good to see Casey continuing the fine fight. People like herself and Shane Urquhart are absolute troopers, not to mention they are the victims at the coalface of these issues. They deserve our continued robust support.

So this leads us into today's 'chocolate frog' award. Drumroll please...... yep, Karen Casey and the NY reporter. Congratulations!
Of course there is always a loser, and 'he who shall not be named' and the ATSB once again receive the 'chocolate starfish award' for appearing in print in NY and bringing Australian aviation into further disrepute.

Kharon, glad you fixed the houseboat engine. Be a good sport old chap, you have a special request so could you please park the Styx Houseboat along Shultz Canal Brisbane Airport. Could be a couple of passengers to be picked up from that 3 story ergonomic government building.
Don't worry, I will look after Minnie and Gobbles. There's a good chap..

'Safe skies are not the ones mentioned in the NY article'

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 8th Mar 2013 at 05:05. Reason: Trending data - Acquired evidence that many of CASA's senior people are bald, or very very senior
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 04:57
  #1250 (permalink)  
 
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I'm genuinely interested to hear who fellow PPruners believe may add value to the CASA ranks and make headway in positioning the organisation as an industry stakeholder that commands respect.
All the good one's left because they could see the rot.

Let me think though??????

How about Greg Vaughan, Bob Jarvis, Russ Evans, McArthur Job.

Sorry, but beyond that, Colonel Clink comes to mind and I get this watery look that tells me I'm speaking to the deaf.

Yes I've lost them, talking to myself again.

Last edited by Frank Arouet; 8th Mar 2013 at 04:59. Reason: Double checking for most recent trending data.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 06:25
  #1251 (permalink)  
 
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Lookleft, blah blah and blah. This is a rumour network, don't come on here asking questions of others. Some have graciously answered your question, so you are fortunate, I am sure many others will ignore you or PM you a reply which sounds similar to 'get stuffed'.
Yep just as I thought

If the the answer to both is no then all you are doing is blowing smoke up your own backside by posting a constant stream of cryptic waffle pretending to be more important than you really are.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 06:39
  #1252 (permalink)  
 
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Lookleft, more blah blah. Fool.

Frank, interesting list. You forgot M. Quinn!!
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 06:46
  #1253 (permalink)  
 
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So Oleo your answer is no and no. You should give up smoking because it makes one angry and egotistical and no-one is going to accept that it is a new form of prostate examination. A fool I may be but a syncophant I am not.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 07:21
  #1254 (permalink)  
 
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Beyond reason?

I was on a very outdated human factors course recently!

They taught us that go beyond the 'who' to the 'why'.

Who only = blame culture

Who + why = just culture

They were still talking about James Reason too!


I think the course was two Tim tams short of a packet.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 08:17
  #1255 (permalink)  
 
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HF vs BS?

Halfmanhalftimtam,

You need to sit on one of Ben Cooks HF courses, delivered proffesionally, succinctly and without any sprinklings of FF pony poo.
If Tony Kern is in town his courses are second to none. Check out Darker Shades Of Blue, a book about 'Lookleft'!
There are one or two other good course deliverers out there but there are also a few shonky salesmen type course providers as well so it pays to sift through the chaff, or to find the quality pot plant in the middle of the garden nursery, so to speak.

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 8th Mar 2013 at 09:14.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 08:29
  #1256 (permalink)  
 
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Frank, interesting list. You forgot M. Quinn!!
So I did. The list was a start, add whoever you feel could do the impossible.

Portside.
syncophant
is an interesting word. My understanding is someone in SYN-PHONEY with someone else.

Do you do deliveries by any chance?

Last edited by Frank Arouet; 8th Mar 2013 at 08:30. Reason: Pepperoni with mushrooms if possible.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 09:32
  #1257 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Oleo,

Yes , agree Reports say Bens courses were well received in casa by attendees.

I wonder about the 'beyond reason' as suggested by Beaker. Seems a bit more like before Reason?
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 09:40
  #1258 (permalink)  
 
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Frank, I am in sync with you.

Frank, Just for you my friend, just for you;

This months special is the 'CASA del Pizza'. Every pizza comes with;
- Additional spices, with flavouring from some pot plant garnishing
- Mushrooms. Grown in a secret CASA location amongst worm castings
- Extra pineapple
- Every order is blessed by a Witchdoctor
- Every order is delivered in a pizza box lined with Flight Safety magazine pages , copies of the White Paper or 'Chambers report'
- All pizzas come with 'Reasoning Seasoning' and are covered with Swiss cheese. Line up all the pieces and you will find a bottle of Diet Coke
- Delivery is via government fleet car, UAV or riverboat

And yes our delivery and cooking procedures are very safe. All woodfire ovens have undergone a robust risk assessment and comply with regulatory procedures. Our delivery drivers and UAV operators have been mentored by our FOI's to ensure the company embraces 'worlds best practise'. Our AOC has just been reissued and an effective SMS is in place, commensurate with the size of our organisation. All Chefs are DAMP tested if the pizzas are burnt which is unlikely as we are ISO certified as part of our QMS. The risk of burnt pizzas has been mitigated by continuous surveillance and continual improvement within our Change Management system.

Frank, we look forward to receiving your order and promise to despatch your pizza within (cough cough) an agreed timeframe. (Please note that anybody taking the piss by making comments about delivery within 23 years will not be served!).

Regards
Management

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 8th Mar 2013 at 09:47.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 20:31
  #1259 (permalink)  
 
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Frank, Just for you my friend, just for you;

This months special is
the 'CASA del Pizza'. Every pizza comes with;
- Additional spices, with
flavouring from some pot plant garnishing
- Mushrooms. Grown in a secret
CASA location amongst worm castings
- Extra pineapple
- Every order is
blessed by a Witchdoctor
- Every order is delivered in a pizza box lined with
Flight Safety magazine pages , copies of the White Paper or 'Chambers
report'
- All pizzas come with 'Reasoning Seasoning' and are covered with
Swiss cheese. Line up all the pieces and you will find a bottle of Diet Coke

- Delivery is via government fleet car, UAV or riverboat

And yes our delivery and cooking procedures are very safe. All woodfire ovens have undergone a robust risk assessment and comply with regulatory procedures. Our delivery drivers and UAV operators have been mentored by our FOI's to ensure the company embraces 'worlds best practise'. Our AOC has just been reissued and an effective SMS is in place, commensurate with the size of our organisation. All Chefs are DAMP tested if the pizzas are burnt which is unlikely as we are ISO certified as
part of our QMS. The risk of burnt pizzas has been mitigated by continuous surveillance and continual improvement within our Change Management system.

Frank, we look forward to receiving your order and promise to
despatch your pizza within (cough cough) an agreed timeframe. (Please note that anybody taking the piss by making comments about delivery within 23 years will not be served!).

Regards
Management
If the the answer to both is no then all you are doing is blowing smoke up your own backside by posting a constant stream of cryptic waffle pretending to be more important than you really are.
So Frank your actual contribution to try and bring about change to the Australian aviation system is zero as well?


Check out Darker Shades Of Blue, a book about 'Lookleft'!
Reading about CRM and being a participant at a HF course is like sitting in front of the computer playing FS Oleo. Unless you actually are a PP and can put that knowledge into practise then you are just yet another wannabe pretending to know how pilots operate in a modern flight deck.
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Old 8th Mar 2013, 21:35
  #1260 (permalink)  
 
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Senate Pizza Menu.

Ahah!, the Mickey Bliss pizza parlour open for bizznezz; glad to see the health department finally left the premises. Interesting word premise:

"The proof of a conclusion depends on both the truth of the premises and the validity of the argument".
The pizza toppings from the Senate menu are varied, we have explored the known universe to find a truly unique mixture of the exotic for your dining pleasure:-

CRASS topping; an evocative mixture, subtly combining the aromatic elements of funeral parlour, public toilet and that - Oh, je ne sais quoi - you get from prawn heads 3 days in the boot. The pizza is loaded with exotic vegetable products which may, or may not have a detrimental effect. There are no guarantees offered with this specialty dish, except an definable improvement in bowel function.

ATABOY topping; a slightly confused mixture of texture and flavour, one for the connoisseur. Delicately balanced between the sublime and the ridiculous, this world renown mixture has many subtle twists and turns which confuse the uneducated palate. This pizza is not available to the general population. Please carefully read the very small print instructions printed inside (on the bottom) of the box.

Spenda Fortune topping; the work required to produce this incredibly light, fluffy confection is immense and makes this house speciality one of the most expensive items on our list. Light weight; a subtle hint of old socks rounds off this delicacy, much favoured by those who need to expend more calories eating than there are in the meal. Weight watchers award 1988.

Airline Standard topping; For airline food, this robust topping is delicious. The fresh flavours, clever combination of textures and overall customer satisfaction ratings make this one of the most popular on our menu.

Van Dyke topping; a traditional Dutch pizza, robust, detailed complex flavours with a bouquet of probity. A substantial, no frills meal; well worth the time it takes to eat.

Sea Food - surprise; the presentation of this pizza is unique; served in a life jacket shaped box with a complimentary whistle. This seafood pizza is not for the feint hearted, there is an understated aroma of kerosene, shark and the deep ocean which evokes feelings of cold wet nights spent waiting for a bus or a rescue boat; whichever comes first. Be brave and try this rare delight.

AIPA topping; a sensible, clever combination of both old and new flavours with a hint of mischief. This pizza is supplied with the highly coveted Customer satisfaction award; consistent, reliable and nearly always on time.

Gary's delight; one more fine example of a seafood delight. The Gary special has a hint of chilli which combined with the adrenalin producing additives provide a top lip sweat. This pizza is a limited edition and must be ordered well in advance due the difficulty in locating the presentation life raft shaped boxes.

Ahem topping; world renown for it's ability to promote "Ahem 's " from the diner. The unique combination of probity pudding and good commonsense vegetables make this delightful pizza a firm favourite of the more 'educated' palate.

Mighty Quinn topping: although frowned on initially by the more conservative lovers of traditional pizza; critics agree the unique blend of traditional and modern flavours, combined with the blow torch finishing technique has progressively come of age and, now that some of the teething problems are ironed out, it is well accepted by pizza lovers everywhere.

Dick's delectable topping; the choice of champions. Winner of the "Punters medal" for excellence. This superb topping won no less than 4 Gold medals in a recent, hard fought international competition. Highly recommended.

FOI surprise; the recipe is only available under strictly controlled conditions. Seekers of this particular pizza need to be determined as they are difficult to acquire. Due to a requirement to sign a non disclosure agreement, punters comments on this rare pizza can not be published.

AMROBA topping; known to aficionados as the Black Hand special. Sensible combinations of the rare and exotic elements contrast with skilled innovation to provide a delicious pizza which may be eaten everyday with safety; and may provide ingredients essential for a long healthy life. Gold medal for "Commonsense Pizza Making".

Urquhart express; not for those with irritable bowel syndrome or a nervous predisposition. This pizza is fully loaded with the hot, spicy flavours of the far north and it is a dish best served cold. Fully supported by the Temperance, Justice and Knitting circle of FNQ.

AsAsA topping; this is a 'don't blink' sort of pizza. The weak, slighty stale flavours generated by the insipid ingredients leave a pronounced, indefinable aftertaste. Included in the menu more for political correctness than demand; although it must be mentioned that the pizza does generate considerable profits for it's purveyors. It is rumoured that this is due to a monopoly on one corner of a scantily populated market place. Yours for AUD$ 100,000,000.

Felidae topping: described more as a dip than a pizza, it is circular (therefore qualifies) but the essence is difficult to define, this pizza has been described as a 'scrambled egg' sort of dipping sauce. There is a requirement for bland, easy to digest meals without much flavour which leave those who like them with little discomfort except a slight 'hot air' burble in the tail pipe.

Take your pick....You ring we bring.

Last edited by Kharon; 9th Mar 2013 at 20:45. Reason: Smile boys
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