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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

Old 21st Feb 2013, 07:21
  #1101 (permalink)  
 
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Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
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I don't know – a man goes out for dinner, couple of pints, cigar and a quiet chat, then last night happens. Well children your antics have been caught on the houseboat CC TV system; what have you got to say for yourselves?. Now then.

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Old 21st Feb 2013, 08:15
  #1102 (permalink)  
 
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What feedback on the impact of certificate management teams and how effective today's oversight is?

Surprised nothing volunteered. Some stats would be interesting.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 08:22
  #1103 (permalink)  
 
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Probity..or probe bitty...

Dont ya just love em..! Read the Hansard re the hearing and go dizzy.
More spin than a flock of toy tops! And denial rampant.
I could design a crest.

Loved this one from the long winded Screamer.." we did it with the most probity and best goodwill we could muster at the time"
And here's me thinking CASA was a "world leader" and so full of ethics and integrity, fair fit to burst!

There's many a poor sod in GA thats been met with an FOI an AWI or a Part 111 "investigator" even, with liver problems, that hasnt been able to muster any probity or "goodwill" at all.!!
Very detrimental to all concerned.

Go you good senators.. keep sticking that probe in.!
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 09:51
  #1104 (permalink)  
 
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All FOI's and AWI's must be made to have a DAMP test before anybody answers any of their questions. All conversations should be recorded.

This is especially relevant to QLD and NT operators.

Watch this space.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 17:16
  #1105 (permalink)  
 
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Casa briefing due out soon.

Could be an interesting read.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 21:28
  #1106 (permalink)  
 
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12 Good men and true – Part 2.

As you may remember, the question of qualification (or lack thereof) was dealt with fairly swiftly; the natural progression was then to compare notes on motive for the "The Chambers Report" being smuggled to Canberra and wrapped in a mantle of secrecy. Looking over the report many of the BRB independently made the same observation; essentially, believing the willing accomplice was working for someone i.e. the author was not a leader (no brainer), but a follower, the report probably drafted to suit a dual purpose. This, stand alone begs many questions of the "author's" integrity, probity and leadership skills.

If you can manage it, read Chambers part 4.1 to 4.2 and count how many times the word "conflict" appears; then find "conflict resolution", then find "avoiding conflict". Disproportionate?, just a bit. This alone speaks volumes to anyone trained in man management. As it happens, one of the BRB actually has an impressive list of qualifications as a "head doctor", his hilarious summation was a highlight of the evening (not for publication). The group response was slightly more robust, a lot more colourful and definitely obscene; but, seeing as this is a family show: the verdict below will have to suffice.

The unanimous verdict: "It is our considered opinion that the "author" is morally incapable of supporting his troops; guilty of acting in a precipitous manner to promote conflict as and where required; guilty of being prepared to lie and obfuscate on demand". "We call for the "author" to be suspended from duty until it is established beyond reasonable doubt, that he is indeed, a fit and proper person before being allowed to further affect or influence the well being of the industry and the people within it". We firmly believe that a full, independent, impartial investigation of Pel Air, Airtex and Skymaster will reveal the true perfidious nature of these events".

Anyway; so moved (temporarily) from Bankstown to Mascot our hero (woger) produces "The Report" and dutifully scampers off to his masters, all puffed up with pride, zeal and the satisfaction of being able to silence the opposition group within. The "Report Bomb" will serve many purposes. Someone should have mentioned Petar(d) and hoist, but then who would help?.

The jury were asked: why was the report secretly commissioned ?. Why was the report not acted on? Were Messrs White and Grima party to the report?

Here, the jury failed to reach a unanimous verdict; too many options, not enough hard fact and a certain 'feeling', that there was a deeper, as yet un revealed motivation for these obscene antics.

The jury was unanimous in deciding there was a rabbit off, a bloody big one. Behind the smoke, mirrors, sacrifices and pony pooh, there is a bigger, uglier story patiently waiting behind the dross to be told.

"Tell me again why we are doing the straight stuff Minnie?". (Sigh) I know, I know, it's not permanent; fetch my cigars, there's a good lass".

Last edited by Kharon; 23rd Feb 2013 at 00:21.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 21:56
  #1107 (permalink)  
 
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The Chambers report suggests to me that CASA is using a hopelessly bureaucratic methodolgy for safety oversight, but I am unsure what else is available right now.

I am familiar with the "relationship manager" model where there is one "go to" person who brings in other resources as required.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 22:32
  #1108 (permalink)  
 
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There have been a lot of changes in safety oversight over the years. Didn't another manager walk and return to the adf. Another went off to Jetstar.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 22:54
  #1109 (permalink)  
 
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Greener potted pastures??

Halfchamberpothalfbiscuit, there has been a large exodus from CASA in the past 2 to 3 years. Mostly management or safety systems people. Names such as Lloyd, Harland and Cook stand out. Pretty much all the Safety Sysyems Specialists (SSS) have turned over as well as a high proportion of the Safety Systems Inspectors (SSI's). To make matters worse, most of these people have left with a bitter taste in their mouths after being stymied, disengaged and disgusted by bureacracy and the ingrained culture of postulation, deflection and incompetence within the higher ranks. As we know most of those in the higher ranks are 'long termers', so one can not help but ask questions as to what is going on in there?

Then again, a lack of stability is nothing unusual under the DAS, Deputy DAS and Associate DAS and their Liuetenants..
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 02:00
  #1110 (permalink)  
 
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Spoiled for choice.

Remarkable, the DAS is completely familiar with section 32 of the TSI, but appears 'puzzled' by the rest, like 24, 25, 26, 27 and ICAO annexe 13. Then of course there are the mysteries of AGIS; there is no evidence within the huge volume available which indicates that the "investigation" was approved, mounted correctly, not conflicted and met all the required protocols. It's passing strange where the 'investigation' must analyse the audit and the Auditors were allowed to test the veracity, competency of their own audit. Even more peculiar is the almost 'instant' one man, subjective judgement that there was in fact sufficient evidence of an intentional breach of 20A, to trigger an investigation. Now, the next question is, who is the masked man taking liberties with the various Acts. Somehow, somewhere it just don't add up.

Clearly Maestro Fawcett can smell a rat (or wabbit) in the shrubbery.

Hansard Page 15. - Senator FAWCETT: If we asked to release an email where a request was made that the report focus on the pilot's actions and potential legislative breaches as opposed to other factors, would that perturb you?
N.B. The email is still in the Senators back pocket, interesting passage of play.

Reference notes:-

Investigation, evidence and investigators manual references:
If the relevant manager considers that there may be evidence of a breach then the first action to be taken is initiation of the CEP (see Chapters 2 and 3). It is onlyafter discussion in this forum that a request for investigation should bemade using form 333.

The tasked investigator will conduct an investigation to provide the Manager EPP with a report and recommendations in accordance with the procedures set out in the Investigators Manual which incorporates the Australian GovernmentInvestigations Standards. (Reference 11-4 enforcement manual.) If a prima facie case exists and prosecution is considered, a Brief of Evidencewill be compiled and submitted in accordance with the procedures set down in the Investigators Manual. Alternatively, on consideration of the investigator’s report, the Manager EPP may decide that the issue of an AIN is a more appropriate penalty. This will also be discussed as part of the CEP. (Reference 11-4 enforcement manual.)

11.5.2 Reporting The Investigators/Coordinator Investigations make entries on AIRS, on the ASIS database and on the Enforcement Action Register on the Enforcement Action eRooms. (Note: This would be as per the AGIS 2003.)
Got to love Hansard, the FOI Act and days off.
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 08:45
  #1111 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps the SSS and SSI 's should write to the senate about the issues.

The senators are now listening.
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 10:36
  #1112 (permalink)  
 
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Chapter 3: The invisible 'Investigators Manual'

Or maybe HMHB the Senators could refer the matter to the ACLEI for non-compliance with the AGIS....
The tasked investigator will conduct an investigation to provide the Manager EPP with a report and recommendations in accordance with the procedures set out in the Investigators Manual which incorporates the Australian Government Investigations Standards.
Good catch "K" there is some good stuff in that enforcement manual, if you can care to read it

Ah yes the AGIS yet another FF obligation that they appear to merely pay lipservice to:
The Australian Government Investigations Standards (AGIS) establish the minimum standards for Australian Government agencies (agencies) conducting investigations. Where the AGIS are in conflict with law, the legislative requirement will prevail. AGIS applies to all stages of an investigation.

An investigation is a process of seeking information relevant to an alleged, apparent or potential breach of the law, involving possible judicial proceedings. The primary purpose of an investigation is to gather admissible evidence for any subsequent action, whether under criminal, civil penalty, civil, disciplinary or administrative sanctions. Investigations can also result in prevention and/or disruption action.

The term investigation can also include intelligence processes which directly support the gathering of admissible evidence. (NB: 'admissible evidence' JQ would get a laugh out of that one)
http://www.ag.gov.au/RightsAndProtec...GIS%202011.pdf

And the “Investigators Manual” which would appear to be yet another fabled, much referred to work of fiction.

Much like the SPM and the long awaited regs the IM will soon become reality, that is once flying fiend and his crew pull their finger out….err that could be at least another decade given Oleo’s comment on the progress of the SPM.

Although flying fiend and his crew have dutifully complied with some of the terms of the AGIS throughout the 221 page ‘Enforcement Manual’, I’m afraid some of that may need to be duplicated in the yet to be promulgated IM. So here’s a helping hand 'flying fiend' for some essential content as per the AGIS 2011 :
1.1 Investigation policy

The agency is to have clear written policy in regard to its investigative function. The policy should include:
a statement regarding the agency’s objectives in carrying out its investigation functions and use of sanctions
a clear definition of activities applicable to the agency to which the AGIS apply. This should include a description of compliance activities that are not generally considered investigations by the agency
a statement regarding the agency’s responsibility to manage matters that are considered minor or routine, and
a statement regarding the agency’s responsibility to refer criminal matters to the Australian Federal Police (AFP). This should include consideration of joint agency investigation teams, where appropriate.
If they haven't done so already perhaps the good Senators should be asking for the paper trail that shows compliance with the AGIS.

While they are at it maybe they could request that the Part IIIA investigator responsible for overseeing the FF accident investigation present to the committee to give evidence


Last edited by Sarcs; 22nd Feb 2013 at 10:46. Reason: Mr Ferryman please tell us another FF fairytale
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 11:22
  #1113 (permalink)  
 
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Community services - Caring is sharing

Sarcs, you don't realise it but you are brilliant!!
The 'free goal' you have given Flyingfiend by providing some robust bullet points pertaining to 1.1 Investigations Manual is just the sort of campaign we need to have!
You have movements such as Occupy Wallstreet, Greenpeace, even Bravehearts. So why don't we start a group, lets call it something like 'Adopt The CASA' or 'Friends of Flyingfiend' (I did consider the name 'Polish a Turd') and we, the little guy, the sh#t kickers in CASA's eyes, us the 'those who should not be seen' can write, formulate, collate, promulgate, promote, introduce and ratify our interpretation and decision on what the rules and regs should be and simply hand it over to Team Flyingfiend! Admittedly it would reduce their costs, less trips to Montreal and other shonky ollie jollies would be removed, but hey, that's the price you pay for safer skies!

Just imagine, industry people who live, work and breathe aviation actually having input?? We take the tasks that FF have not been able to accomplish for a quarter of a century out of their hands. No more silly Pensioners, no more tautological nonsense, we won't 'take questions on notice', no more spin, no more bureaucratic pony poo and no more PHD dribbling wordsmiths trying to cover their shortcomings of having small pee pee's by using big words!
And not only can we do all that, but we will also wash the fleet cars, empty the dishwashers and water the pot plants! What do you think boys?

Then after that, we can start doing ATSB's investigations and report writing for them! But that is phased in with Stage 2 of the project.

Yep, Sarcs old son I think you have inadvertently stumbled across a robust method of speeding up Fort Fumbles time frames and creating an environment in which Flyingfiend and friends will have more time for meditation, searching out their inner selves, evaluating life's priorities and fine tuning their moral compass. Hell I bet some of them would even take on volunteer community service to show they really do care underneath?

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 22nd Feb 2013 at 11:29. Reason: Soul searching and meditating on how special aviation really is to me.
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 20:56
  #1114 (permalink)  
 
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Sarcs, Oleo,
This archived thread is worth refreshing - at the risk of being accused of tautology!

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...countable.html

Funny that CASA was going through 'transformational change' yet nobody appeared to get made redundant but a whole load of Safety System Specialists/Inspectors decided to leave? Oleo - i think you nailed the reasons.

Last edited by halfmanhalfbiscuit; 22nd Feb 2013 at 21:01.
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 22:03
  #1115 (permalink)  
 
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AGIS 2011.

The AGIS is a fairly standard public service document and not a riveting read. It becomes very interesting when you compare a real life investigation to the AGIS protocols.

If you are the inquisitive type and can find an hour to do some research, there are some 'curiously intriguing' items of interest which emerge very easily. Try 1.1 and 1.2. as an appetiser.

AGIS 2011.

Use the Download Only button in the top right corner, beware the "download" buttons. PAIN_Net do not track downloads.

P18 - a.k.a - Blind Freddy, (easily identified, the one holding the short straw).

Last edited by PAIN_NET; 22nd Feb 2013 at 22:08.
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 22:28
  #1116 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks blind Freddy.

1.9 Ethical conduct
Agencies must conduct investigations in accordance with the following:
• Australian Public Service (APS) Values, and
• APS Code of Conduct.
Agencies are required to have a procedure governing the manner in which complaints concerning the conduct of its investigations are handled. These procedures should ensure that complaints are handled in a timely, appropriate and comprehensive manner.
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Old 22nd Feb 2013, 23:03
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Thanks gents. The only problem with internal investigations being made is that if they go to the ICC the problem is the DAS and Assistant DAS from memory are on the committee, so a fat load of good that is. And as for the Commissioner, well......
The AAT is another farce. Either way, you complain about the CASA and the outcome rarely ends up finishing well in your favour. Emotional and financial heartache is guaranteed.
The public service act and process is a crock.

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 22nd Feb 2013 at 23:06.
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Old 23rd Feb 2013, 00:10
  #1118 (permalink)  
 
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What a swell party this is.

It snowed last night along the banks of the Styx, a fairly unusual event, considering.. Nothing else would do but for Gobbles and Minnie Bannister to drag the Troika out, dust it off and fetch up the horses. Off we went at a furious clip (Minnie driving), wondering all the while at the sight of snowflakes in Hell. As it's a weekend, seeing how much fun the troops and horses were having; I put aside the minutes of the last BRB sit down, entertaining though they are. Monday will arrive soon enough.

Maybe it was all the white stuff on the grim landscape, or the shade of wodger, the white, wily, weport wabbit, but it started me thinking. White was a 'hand picked' storm trooper, uploaded into a new position, Manager AILU and an expert on the MOU and the TSI, before the Miller report slithered out of it's hole and the infamous MOU was hammered out, discussed and signed.

Now then the Beaker Boys, White and probably some of CASA significant others were up to their collective ears in this unholy alliance; all cognisant, briefed and aware. So why was the 'expert' White rolled during the final degradation of the ATSB report by the Grim spinner? Passing strange is that, the paper trail is fairly confused but a chronology exposes some pretty big holes in the bucket.

The best laugh of all at the last hearing was when "he whodoo voodoo" leapt in to cover the 'he who must not be named' arse and patiently, quietly explained to the gullible Senators that the naughty ATSB were not passing on information, so robust measures were needed. He doesn't usually tell jokes at Senate affairs, but that was a corker.

Dr Aleck: I was very closely involved in the development of the MOU and the situation that preceded it. If I could just say something that might put some context for both Senator Fawcett's question and Mr McCormick's answer, it might help a bit. Firstly, the rationale for the new MOU was to create an environment in which, if I may put it this way, as much information as appropriate could be exchanged between the agencies. The motivating factor at the time had far less to do with any concerns on the part of the ATSB with information CASA was not providing to them but rather information that the ATSB in the past had not provided to CASA.

The fact that the provisions read the way they do reflect a very appropriate form of reciprocity, in which the ATSB under its new leadership said, 'Yes, we will provide you with more information, and we expect you to provide us with the same.' In the spirit of that arrangement, and I agree it probably should be read largely, the question should that a default position should be: 'We'll give you as much as you possibly can and then you decide when we've given you too much
Second best also cracked me up; when Senators Fawcett and Xenophon (welcome home) tried to prise a response from dear old "Merry Terry", on anything. The CASA boys jumped in and answered for him. Did you notice the sweat poring out when he did eventually get to do a gig. Robbie Burns had the right of it "O would some power the gift to give us to see ourselves as others see us".

Well, Gobbles and Minnie are having a snowball fight, better go and sort it out before that too turns ugly.



Last edited by Kharon; 23rd Feb 2013 at 01:37. Reason: Sponsored by Willyleaks - BRB sit down vision.
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Old 23rd Feb 2013, 04:48
  #1119 (permalink)  
 
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Kharon, we had wondered where Gobbles went? Halfmanhalfcustardcream told me he was in Montreal. Now you tell us he is playing in the snow with Minnie? I thought he may have been chained to the keel of the Styx houseboat? So now I am really confused because Sarcs tells me he is locked in a dungeon re-writing the regs! Someone else told me he has been frequenting watering holes around SE Asia. Can anybody say for sure where he is? Perhaps Flyingfiend has done a 'Jimmy Hoffa' to him and he has been buried in a garden somewhere with a nice potted shrubbery above him??

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 23rd Feb 2013 at 04:50.
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Old 23rd Feb 2013, 09:57
  #1120 (permalink)  
 
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The tale of the weally, weally, wily, white wabbit!

Oleo I’d go with Kharon’s version on Gobbles whereabouts, after all they are soulmates!
White was a 'hand picked' storm trooper, uploaded into a new position, Manager AILU and an expert on the MOU and the TSI, before the Miller report slithered out of it's hole and the infamous MOU was hammered out, discussed and signed.
It would appear “K” that the white wabbit had already been promoted and dispatched to sort out and confuse Beaker and his cronies right from the start of this sordid tale that has more twists and turns than a wabbit warren….take a look at the synopsis from the infamous hidden CAIR 09/3:
Synopsis


The Accident was notified to the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) who in turn notified the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) on Wednesday 18 November. The ATSB decided to conduct an investigation. The CASA Manager Accident Liaison and Investigation Unit (ALIU) was tasked with conducting a parallel investigation for CASA purposes. An investigation into the circumstances of the accident was commenced the next day. CASA informed the ATSB of the investigation in accordance with sub section 4.1.2 of the joint MOU.
So as you can see the weally weally wily white wabbit was already tasked under the terms of the yet to be signed MOU 2010.

The bigger question is why did Beaker and the bureau swallow the severely sanitised white wabbits wubbish weport which reads like a condensed version of the ATSB ‘Final Report’??
The best laugh of all at the last hearing was when "he whodoo voodoo" leapt in to cover the 'he who must not be named' arse and patiently, quietly explained to the gullible Senators that the naughty ATSB were not passing on information, so robust measures were needed. He doesn't usually tell jokes at Senate affairs, but that was a corker.
Hoodoo Voodoo doc’s interpretation of the Miller review and the subsequent reason for re-writing the MOU is indeed laughable….hmm perhaps refuting the doc’s assertions would be best left to a more appropriate time and place…so I'm off and doing a Kelpie
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