MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.
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Yes the aviation world is in constant change but one thing that hasnt changed is the top level greed.What productivity have the CEO's at Qantas produced in the last 5 yrs in return for the 55 M dollars they have been paid.Id suggest GD concentrate on the next jingle for Tourism Australia.The industry is suffering from most of the decisions of the last 10 yrs.
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The usual ravings on from GD. Interestingly no mention of the failed Airline Partners private equity bid in the recent history of Qantas as seen through the eyes of the esteemed $10 million dollar man.
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Well well well, some comments from the super chief, Dixon!
I appreciate that Geoff, as I have printed off your comments an placed the paperwork strategically in my ensuite ****ter.
Dixon babbled on about aviation being a brutal industry and adapting to a regularly changing environment, interesting. Is that why QF group managers were detained in Vietnam, freight cartel price fixing scams were uncovered, QF international has supposedly not turned a profit in eons despite all methods of managing the business under the iron fist of Dixon and Joyce? What about wrong aircraft choice and the travesty of not introducing the 777? Yes Geoff, Alan, et al, you have done a splendid job of adapting to a changing business environment to date haven't you?
In fact, if history is anything to go by, each decision you have made has negatively impacted the business (refer to the current share price as to it's $5.60 value from many moons ago) history would suggest that with whatever decisions you make, the exact opposite is more effective. That therefor means that grounding the airline, fighting the unions an making staff redundant is exactly the opposite to what the company needs to do to remain competitive and sustainable.
The nail in QF's coffin will be the Asian adventure that management excitedly are pursuing. I hope the burial plot has been dug because the coffin is ready to be lowered.
I appreciate that Geoff, as I have printed off your comments an placed the paperwork strategically in my ensuite ****ter.
Dixon babbled on about aviation being a brutal industry and adapting to a regularly changing environment, interesting. Is that why QF group managers were detained in Vietnam, freight cartel price fixing scams were uncovered, QF international has supposedly not turned a profit in eons despite all methods of managing the business under the iron fist of Dixon and Joyce? What about wrong aircraft choice and the travesty of not introducing the 777? Yes Geoff, Alan, et al, you have done a splendid job of adapting to a changing business environment to date haven't you?
In fact, if history is anything to go by, each decision you have made has negatively impacted the business (refer to the current share price as to it's $5.60 value from many moons ago) history would suggest that with whatever decisions you make, the exact opposite is more effective. That therefor means that grounding the airline, fighting the unions an making staff redundant is exactly the opposite to what the company needs to do to remain competitive and sustainable.
The nail in QF's coffin will be the Asian adventure that management excitedly are pursuing. I hope the burial plot has been dug because the coffin is ready to be lowered.
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All to be forgiven - Alan says sorry
Alan Joyce has said in all the papers this morning that he's really really really double super secret sorry for the Qantas grounding. Sorrier than a really sorry thing.
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And the Corporate back up machine is kicking in nicely. Swaying little Aussie battler's public opinion in the "Battler's Bible" The Telegraph this morning. It never ceases to amaze me how they can turn their dedicated readership against itself with these stories.
The Numbers Man: How Alan Joyce soared to become Qantas boss | thetelegraph.com.au
The Numbers Man: How Alan Joyce soared to become Qantas boss | thetelegraph.com.au
Just a shame no journo asked Alan the following....
If the grounding of the qantas fleet created an imminent safety risk, (as determined via your internal risk assessment) and aircraft either taxiing, lined up or about to push were told to return to blocks,
Why were aircraft that were airborne at the time, not told to landed at the nearest suitable airport?
Was there somehow different levels of imminent safety risk identified in the risk assessment? If so, please explain?
So many questions Alan.
If the grounding of the qantas fleet created an imminent safety risk, (as determined via your internal risk assessment) and aircraft either taxiing, lined up or about to push were told to return to blocks,
Why were aircraft that were airborne at the time, not told to landed at the nearest suitable airport?
Was there somehow different levels of imminent safety risk identified in the risk assessment? If so, please explain?
So many questions Alan.
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A quote from the above Telegraph article by AJ
Crapola, go and read your owner handbook for your car, I have, it will state something to the effect;
"The oil level & coolant should be checked at least weekly".... and more often if used in extreme operating conditions (My wording following.ie. Such as a car driving in the outback or aircraft flying non-stop across the Pacific or Indian Oceans. .).
Just People being lazy or ignorant..
The best analogy is your car - 20 years ago you had to check the oil and water every weekend. Do you remember?You couldn't go a weekend without doing it? Now when do you check the oil and water? With new cars you don't have to. And that's the equivalent with aircraft technology. We're doing things we should have stopped 20 years ago."
"The oil level & coolant should be checked at least weekly".... and more often if used in extreme operating conditions (My wording following.ie. Such as a car driving in the outback or aircraft flying non-stop across the Pacific or Indian Oceans. .).
Just People being lazy or ignorant..
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Cosgrove's opinion too, is a disgrace.
It very much confirms what this former military man (ie, me) thinks about his dramatic about-turn in leadership since he left the military and joined the Qantas Board.
Then again, I never had any doubt that as an Infantry Officer he always figured a large aeroplane with complex systems carrying 400 people at 1000 km/h at 39,000 ft can be operated just like a Unimog.
It very much confirms what this former military man (ie, me) thinks about his dramatic about-turn in leadership since he left the military and joined the Qantas Board.
Then again, I never had any doubt that as an Infantry Officer he always figured a large aeroplane with complex systems carrying 400 people at 1000 km/h at 39,000 ft can be operated just like a Unimog.
Why were aircraft that were airborne at the time, not told to landed at the nearest suitable airport?
And why were QLink and Jetstar allowed to fly? Did the risk assessment cover them? Or was it assumed that pilots from these companies would not feel worried or distracted? If big brother falls there would be collateral damage in these companies as well.
"There's no guarantee of the right to exist. You have to fight for it and I think thats what we're doing." - Alan Joyce
Fight for it, just like the Unions are doing, fighting for their futures, fighting for practices that have kept their aircraft relatively safe for the last 60 years. Good on ya Alan, nice double standards.
As they said, hes a number man, its all numbers for him and pushing those numbers to their limits, eventually though with that philosophy you eventually push those numbers too far and something happens, generally in Aviation that something could be a smoking hole in the ground. I think we're all wondering if thats what it will take for people like Alan Joyce to really wake up and smell the roses and realise the part he has played in it.
Fight for it, just like the Unions are doing, fighting for their futures, fighting for practices that have kept their aircraft relatively safe for the last 60 years. Good on ya Alan, nice double standards.
As they said, hes a number man, its all numbers for him and pushing those numbers to their limits, eventually though with that philosophy you eventually push those numbers too far and something happens, generally in Aviation that something could be a smoking hole in the ground. I think we're all wondering if thats what it will take for people like Alan Joyce to really wake up and smell the roses and realise the part he has played in it.
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rmcdonal asked;
1. "And why were QLink and Jetstar allowed to fly?"
Probably because you can do min rest overnights, and only get 8 days off per mth of which not all have to be in blocks of two consecutive days. QLINK pilots can fly 90+ hrs per mth without overtime and JQ's overtime threshold is a lot higher than 55 hrs per month. In other words, both QLINK and JQ have much more "friendly and flexible" workplace agreements in place(read cheaper). That is the issue here; nothing else.
2. "If big brother falls there would be collateral damage in these companies as well."
Big Brother is not going to fall. Remember the company posted a $500+ million dollar profit last year, and has not posted a loss for how long??
There is 3+ Billion in the bank and the Company is very strong and diversified to cover all facets.
It's union busting 101 and nothing more.
1. "And why were QLink and Jetstar allowed to fly?"
Probably because you can do min rest overnights, and only get 8 days off per mth of which not all have to be in blocks of two consecutive days. QLINK pilots can fly 90+ hrs per mth without overtime and JQ's overtime threshold is a lot higher than 55 hrs per month. In other words, both QLINK and JQ have much more "friendly and flexible" workplace agreements in place(read cheaper). That is the issue here; nothing else.
2. "If big brother falls there would be collateral damage in these companies as well."
Big Brother is not going to fall. Remember the company posted a $500+ million dollar profit last year, and has not posted a loss for how long??
There is 3+ Billion in the bank and the Company is very strong and diversified to cover all facets.
It's union busting 101 and nothing more.
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The CEO, the General, and the Queen, a dilemma.
QANTAS Executive Manager, Industrial Relations Ms. Sue Bussell in a letter to Australian and International Pilots Association dated Friday 14 October 2011 writes
On the 19th October the Queen arrived in Australia for an eleven day tour.
On 29th October Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth departed Perth to return to the UK and immediately Joyce grounds QANTAS and says the decision was only made on that day and that it was the only option available.
Would QANTAS board member General P.J. Cosgrove AC, MC give his vote to lock out the staff and ground the fleet, while HRH was in country?
Perhaps the decision to lock out employees and ground the airline really was made on the 14 October in line with the Bussell letter and delayed until after the Queens departure.
The QANTAS board meeting on the morning of the 29th October was probably just to confirm if they were really going ahead with the pre-planned scheme, having had the 'snout trough' filled to capacity, at the previous days AGM.
“Qantas again requests that AIPA withdraw its AOEC (Qantas Flight, Qantas Pilot) claim and make the related consequential amendments to other claims….. In the absence of AIPA doing so, Qantas sees no value in further conferences before FWA”
On 29th October Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth departed Perth to return to the UK and immediately Joyce grounds QANTAS and says the decision was only made on that day and that it was the only option available.
Would QANTAS board member General P.J. Cosgrove AC, MC give his vote to lock out the staff and ground the fleet, while HRH was in country?
Perhaps the decision to lock out employees and ground the airline really was made on the 14 October in line with the Bussell letter and delayed until after the Queens departure.
The QANTAS board meeting on the morning of the 29th October was probably just to confirm if they were really going ahead with the pre-planned scheme, having had the 'snout trough' filled to capacity, at the previous days AGM.
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As they said, hes a number man, its all numbers for him and pushing those numbers to their limits, eventually though with that philosophy you eventually push those numbers too far and something happens, generally in Aviation that something could be a smoking hole in the ground. I think we're all wondering if thats what it will take for people like Alan Joyce to really wake up and smell the roses and realise the part he has played in it.
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The QANTAS board meeting on the morning of the 29th October was probably just to confirm if they were really going ahead with the pre-planned scheme, having had the 'snout trough' filled to capacity, at the previous days AGM.
If Alan Joyce called the board meeting for saturday 29th October, is it a legal requirement to record the minutes of the meeting.
If so, are these minutes available for public, shareholder or senate inquiry scrutiny?
MC
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I agree, todays article about 'the numbers man' was nauseating. Joyces skill set is number crunching and mathematics, not safety systems or safety related risk, this is evident by his decisions.
Cosgrove makes me reach for the vomit bucket, it is a crying shame to see a pure blooded Australian turn into the
he now is.
Also Joyce says he doesnt like name calling and racism, fair enough statement, but I take umbrage at him claiming to understand and know what Qantas means to Australians as a national icon and part of our culture??? Well no you don't you fKnuckle. You may have been nationalized in 2003 but you aren't and never will be a full blooded Australian with the same concerns for our national icon as some of us have. You are about as Australian as river dancing and the Eiffel tower!
Cosgrove makes me reach for the vomit bucket, it is a crying shame to see a pure blooded Australian turn into the
he now is.Also Joyce says he doesnt like name calling and racism, fair enough statement, but I take umbrage at him claiming to understand and know what Qantas means to Australians as a national icon and part of our culture??? Well no you don't you f
Knuckle. You may have been nationalized in 2003 but you aren't and never will be a full blooded Australian with the same concerns for our national icon as some of us have. You are about as Australian as river dancing and the Eiffel tower!
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I think you can guarantee there were minutes of that meeting because the directors would have insisted upon it to cover their individual and collective arses.
The real issue is whether those minutes accurately reflect what occurred. Given as there has unlikely been another meeting since that date, the draft minutes would remain so until adopted and approved at a subsequent meeting.
Minutes are not generally available BUT they could be sought by Senate, any Regulatory authority or during any legal procedures. Hence para 2.
I think that opens up a few opportunities doesn't it?
The real issue is whether those minutes accurately reflect what occurred. Given as there has unlikely been another meeting since that date, the draft minutes would remain so until adopted and approved at a subsequent meeting.
Minutes are not generally available BUT they could be sought by Senate, any Regulatory authority or during any legal procedures. Hence para 2.
I think that opens up a few opportunities doesn't it?
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They minutes from management meetings is also something that CASA often ask to see during audit, to ensure safety matters are being raised, discussed and any deficiencies mitigated.
But of course as we know, CASA are too scared to go after QF and prefer to poke around and make life unbearable for smaller operators. Nonetheless we will see CASA finally break through the QF barrier and investigate them to ensure the same standards are being met by QF as what the rest of Australian aviation community is expected to exhibit?
Yeah, I thought as much.
But of course as we know, CASA are too scared to go after QF and prefer to poke around and make life unbearable for smaller operators. Nonetheless we will see CASA finally break through the QF barrier and investigate them to ensure the same standards are being met by QF as what the rest of Australian aviation community is expected to exhibit?
Yeah, I thought as much.
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Free tickets, very clever indeed ,selling air , free ticket subject to availability and by accepting free ticket give up any right for class action suit . The Spin Doctors have been busy in the Bunker.
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Dont forget also with current reported loads on the Rat they have plenty of capacity to give away.
Do they really think consumers are so stupid as to buy this for a long term change?
It is nothing more than a blatant attempt to pander to the ACCC, give some cheap shots while they finish off the execution of the Joyce Plan.
There was not a person in that Senate room the other day that bought the constant and repetitive spin (and please change the tune on the car servicing it is like a broken and chipped record).
Do they really think consumers are so stupid as to buy this for a long term change?
It is nothing more than a blatant attempt to pander to the ACCC, give some cheap shots while they finish off the execution of the Joyce Plan.
There was not a person in that Senate room the other day that bought the constant and repetitive spin (and please change the tune on the car servicing it is like a broken and chipped record).