Fly-in, fly-out culture stretching air traffic
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The crux of the story is that Mr 'AsA' wants the mining Co's to change their rosters start time/s to accommodate a poor ATC system? That's the stupid side of this argument making people change their lives for the very reason we have ATC in the first place, for the people to move about this great land of ours!!!!. We have overcrowded trains these days would getting everybody to change their start times at the office fix that?
Well at least such dumb statements as this report shows keeps us PPruners out of the air making it even worse!
Wmk2
Well at least such dumb statements as this report shows keeps us PPruners out of the air making it even worse!
Wmk2
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We have overcrowded trains these days would getting everybody to change their start times at the office fix that?
So there you have yet another bureaucrat suggesting ludicrous unworkable measures (and it is a cheap alternative as she doesn't have to spend any of our taxpayer money on infrastructure) to cope with service difficulties. What a joke, what the fu#k has Aus government turned into?? We pay these assclowns to make these sort of weak strategies? Fools.
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A little history here.
Back in about 1999 local Perth ATC approached the then Ansett WA in an effort to have them modify their scheduled 6am departures to better spread the load. At that time the 6 F28s all mixed it with the east coast jets, other intra state flights - I think it was about 45 scheduled departures in the first 75 minutes of the morning. This came after Capt Australian Airlines complained about a 45 minute wait at 0600.
Working locally AWA and Perth ATC managed to move 4 of the F28s to 0530 to 0555 departures thus alleviating the problem in a small way. Perth ATC were crticised by the coporate section becasue we did not go through their channels - Ansett melbourne - to have this done.
My point is the solution is achievable but there needs to be the will and cooperation of all the parties to reach a solution. Unfortunately I think the current ASA structure is so out of touch with the realities that this cooperation will never be achieved.
Local controllers have been saying for a long time that infrastructure was needed - a radar at MSN was even suggested in 1997 to solve the coverage problems. Too much dosh to spend for the West coast where there is no aviation!! For too long Perth controllers have beaten their heads against the east coast centric mindset to achieve little.
And again we see the east coast centric solution - blame someone else because we were too short sighted or pig headed to listen to people who had a real feel for what was going on. What the hell would local boggie controllers know about strategic air traffic management?
Negotiations and solutions rarely involve the coal face, cant let those unwashed controllers talk directly to the airlines - egad! Must be done through a strata of red tape and corporate relations by people whno have little connection with aviation and even less with experience with real time ATM.
Soap box, megaphone, out the door.
Back in about 1999 local Perth ATC approached the then Ansett WA in an effort to have them modify their scheduled 6am departures to better spread the load. At that time the 6 F28s all mixed it with the east coast jets, other intra state flights - I think it was about 45 scheduled departures in the first 75 minutes of the morning. This came after Capt Australian Airlines complained about a 45 minute wait at 0600.
Working locally AWA and Perth ATC managed to move 4 of the F28s to 0530 to 0555 departures thus alleviating the problem in a small way. Perth ATC were crticised by the coporate section becasue we did not go through their channels - Ansett melbourne - to have this done.
My point is the solution is achievable but there needs to be the will and cooperation of all the parties to reach a solution. Unfortunately I think the current ASA structure is so out of touch with the realities that this cooperation will never be achieved.
Local controllers have been saying for a long time that infrastructure was needed - a radar at MSN was even suggested in 1997 to solve the coverage problems. Too much dosh to spend for the West coast where there is no aviation!! For too long Perth controllers have beaten their heads against the east coast centric mindset to achieve little.
And again we see the east coast centric solution - blame someone else because we were too short sighted or pig headed to listen to people who had a real feel for what was going on. What the hell would local boggie controllers know about strategic air traffic management?
Negotiations and solutions rarely involve the coal face, cant let those unwashed controllers talk directly to the airlines - egad! Must be done through a strata of red tape and corporate relations by people whno have little connection with aviation and even less with experience with real time ATM.
Soap box, megaphone, out the door.
Airports, airspace and airlines can operate independently of each other and that market forces will keep them aligned. This is not happening.
The fix is turn Pearce into a multi user facility the same as Darwin and Townsville and extend the Midland rail line through Ellenbrook to Pearce.
Another option might be hubbing from the eastern states through ADL and/or ASP. MEL/SYD > AD > WA, SYD/BNE > AS > WA. Opens another market for labour and the transit times, in many cases, would be less.
There is no doubt that infrastructure has lagged well behind what is required, so my read is that ASA are saying "let's work together to have a manageable option (as the current system is unsustainable)".
Please stop saying turn Pearce into a common user airport.
The laughter is beginning to make me hurt.
Do a little research on the number of movements there in a normal day let alone having 5 a/c in the cct at anyone time doing guess what, cct training, all operating VFR.
Exactly how are you going to fit IFR RPT/fifo into that mix during daylight hours?
The laughter is beginning to make me hurt.
Do a little research on the number of movements there in a normal day let alone having 5 a/c in the cct at anyone time doing guess what, cct training, all operating VFR.
Exactly how are you going to fit IFR RPT/fifo into that mix during daylight hours?
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Wally
The crux of the story is that Mr 'AsA' wants the mining Co's to change their rosters start time/s to accommodate a poor ATC system? That's the stupid side of this argument making people change their lives for the very reason we have ATC in the first place, for the people to move about this great land of ours!!!!. We have overcrowded trains these days would getting everybody to change their start times at the office fix that
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Part of the issue is that 24 is not used for departures
Please stop saying turn Pearce into a common user airport
Aircraft leave Perth to track out through an arc of about 200 degrees
Meanwhile Gatwick airport moved double the airport movements of Perth with one runway
ASA CEO and PAPL (formerly WAC) may be reacting late, very late, but the concept of smoothing is being received well by mining companies and airlines. Implementation well that's another battle. No long term fix but it helps all and at least finally the problem is recognised.
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How far along is Terminal WA now?
Tarmac is bizjet heaven at the moment, every African tinpot despot seems to have one
Heard the other day that a radar site will go in at Paraburdoo, (probably about the same time ADSB becomes mandatory!). At least something is being done I guess.
I guess this will help the inbound flow further out, but what about arrivals and departures from all the airports up that way? Will we see Class C or E airspace down to lower levels?
I guess this will help the inbound flow further out, but what about arrivals and departures from all the airports up that way? Will we see Class C or E airspace down to lower levels?
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Greg Russell has provided a solution, ADSB, which has been pointed out above will allow more aircraft into the airspace. Asking the mining companies for help though is pretty much a waste of time, I can't think of many, well any, who employ decision makers in their supply and logistics departments who would have a vague understanding of the issues. We buy planes by the hour based on shifting so many people, so many times a week, "How much is it going to cost?" From our (miners) perspective, it is a long way to work and we need to get people there as early as we can. BUT, given how much time we spend in the terminal waiting for taxi slot times and are late anyway, it seems foolish not to move to a later time, 45 mins would do it. And yes, Fridays to Mondays is possible and we (the staff) would welcome it. Okay, sometimes, I suspect many would not.
WA has sufficient coverage of ADSB receivers see this link both Hedland and Karratha are well covered; out here near Leonora/Laverton we have coverage over about 10 airports down to 2000' or less. So controllers have the tools they need to see do their side of the deal.
A new runway is still possible and is still part of the long term plan, one of the considerations is the cost of runway vs how many planes we can get into the air with ADSB across the state. I suspect a shorter 2000 metre parellel strip might still win. High speed turn offs would also make a difference, but we do not seem to be making much head way on either. However runways and taxiways are not part of Airservices responsibility; who could forget the stunning achievments of airport privatisation!
I could go on but what no one has mentioned in amongst the government hating, burearucracy hating and other mindless rubbish, is that the reason we don't have better ADSB use, is that none, not one, of the charter companies in Perth has spent one cent on equipping their aircraft with ADSB gear. Certainly some companies have ADSB equipped aircraft, but only because that is how they were delivered. If the charter companies, who sell planes by the hour, not the seat, are feeling hard done by maybe they could make a small contribution to the system. From ATC's perspective thay have invested in the system, but the charter companies are really dragging the chain on their part of the deal. I might also add that of the aircraft that do have ADSB, none of them operate within any sort of tolerance, if you have a look on Flightradar24 or Planefinder and see where the charter aircraft land and take off from you'll be amused. More than one has 'landed' on Horrie Miller Drive (and hangers, terminals, slightly off taxiways etc) due to a lack of accuracy in the ADSB source. So how about the charter companies a) investing in ADSB sooner rather than wait for a deadline and b) talking to some of their customers to look at rescheduling, sometimes 10 - 15 mins would make a difference.
WA has sufficient coverage of ADSB receivers see this link both Hedland and Karratha are well covered; out here near Leonora/Laverton we have coverage over about 10 airports down to 2000' or less. So controllers have the tools they need to see do their side of the deal.
A new runway is still possible and is still part of the long term plan, one of the considerations is the cost of runway vs how many planes we can get into the air with ADSB across the state. I suspect a shorter 2000 metre parellel strip might still win. High speed turn offs would also make a difference, but we do not seem to be making much head way on either. However runways and taxiways are not part of Airservices responsibility; who could forget the stunning achievments of airport privatisation!
I could go on but what no one has mentioned in amongst the government hating, burearucracy hating and other mindless rubbish, is that the reason we don't have better ADSB use, is that none, not one, of the charter companies in Perth has spent one cent on equipping their aircraft with ADSB gear. Certainly some companies have ADSB equipped aircraft, but only because that is how they were delivered. If the charter companies, who sell planes by the hour, not the seat, are feeling hard done by maybe they could make a small contribution to the system. From ATC's perspective thay have invested in the system, but the charter companies are really dragging the chain on their part of the deal. I might also add that of the aircraft that do have ADSB, none of them operate within any sort of tolerance, if you have a look on Flightradar24 or Planefinder and see where the charter aircraft land and take off from you'll be amused. More than one has 'landed' on Horrie Miller Drive (and hangers, terminals, slightly off taxiways etc) due to a lack of accuracy in the ADSB source. So how about the charter companies a) investing in ADSB sooner rather than wait for a deadline and b) talking to some of their customers to look at rescheduling, sometimes 10 - 15 mins would make a difference.
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ReadMyACARS.
Skywest and Alliance both have active programs for ADS-B equippage on their F100 fleets. In the case of XR I believe they already have a a/c fitted with GNSS recievers for ADS-B.
Same for Alliance with their F70 and F100. Of which the first a/c flew with ADS-B equipment (GNSS) yesterday.
Cheers.
K-Ex.
Skywest and Alliance both have active programs for ADS-B equippage on their F100 fleets. In the case of XR I believe they already have a a/c fitted with GNSS recievers for ADS-B.
Same for Alliance with their F70 and F100. Of which the first a/c flew with ADS-B equipment (GNSS) yesterday.
Cheers.
K-Ex.
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Greg Russell has provided a solution, ADSB,
amongst the government hating, burearucracy hating and other mindless rubbish, is that the reason we don't have better ADSB use, is that none, not one, of the charter companies in Perth has spent one cent on equipping their aircraft with ADSB gear.
Thread Starter
Heard the other day that a radar site will go in at Paraburdoo
You can push tin OS because you don't have lawyers coming up with wank procedures like separation assurance and the 2 minute stand down for missing an irrelevant read back.
The major problem is that there are too many smart people who have never worked outside ASA enforcing worlds best practice. If the just pissed them all of and let air traffic controllers do what they need to do to push the traffic through you could increase the amount.
Where i work, there is no official investigation unless you have less than 5 miles. So this means when coordination is dropped no one cares, when pilot doesn't read back a clearance for weather diversion and it is irrelevant anyway, you won't have an ALM stand you down because it is appreciated if you believe that the readback was important to you, you will chase it. Separation insurance is an Air Traffic Controller.
For example- here- You climb him, if it doesn't work, you turn him. In australia if you climb him, if there is a possibility it does not work (even if it absolutely ridiculous) , you are stood down. So nobody will climb him.
Here is another example
I had 2 opposite in non radar airspace. the high one has icing and need decent. There is no way to take him down as the lower one is blocking. It will take 10minutes until they will pass. I should have been able to give the aircraft a traffic statement and information on the situation to allow for the decent for the high traffic. However, I would have been stood down. So is this case I had to descend the low aircraft out side controller airspace to FL180, 6000'. Then the high aircraft descended to FL150. And they passed each other without the separation standard outside controlled airspace Only 6000' lower and in closer proximity than it would have been if I could have used my judgment and commonsense. So I can't use my skill and judgment, or commonsense to do what I need to do. I have to follow these irrational rules without exemption.
I guess the DFS is thankful to tfn for the good work.
The major problem is that there are too many smart people who have never worked outside ASA enforcing worlds best practice. If the just pissed them all of and let air traffic controllers do what they need to do to push the traffic through you could increase the amount.
Where i work, there is no official investigation unless you have less than 5 miles. So this means when coordination is dropped no one cares, when pilot doesn't read back a clearance for weather diversion and it is irrelevant anyway, you won't have an ALM stand you down because it is appreciated if you believe that the readback was important to you, you will chase it. Separation insurance is an Air Traffic Controller.
For example- here- You climb him, if it doesn't work, you turn him. In australia if you climb him, if there is a possibility it does not work (even if it absolutely ridiculous) , you are stood down. So nobody will climb him.
Here is another example
I had 2 opposite in non radar airspace. the high one has icing and need decent. There is no way to take him down as the lower one is blocking. It will take 10minutes until they will pass. I should have been able to give the aircraft a traffic statement and information on the situation to allow for the decent for the high traffic. However, I would have been stood down. So is this case I had to descend the low aircraft out side controller airspace to FL180, 6000'. Then the high aircraft descended to FL150. And they passed each other without the separation standard outside controlled airspace Only 6000' lower and in closer proximity than it would have been if I could have used my judgment and commonsense. So I can't use my skill and judgment, or commonsense to do what I need to do. I have to follow these irrational rules without exemption.
I guess the DFS is thankful to tfn for the good work.
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If only the term, "Service Provider" was taken seriously by both the Government and the so called "Public Service".(Department Heads).Unfortunately,unless there is a joint public media campaign by industry(Aviation and other vested interests),the ludicrous curfews and resource limitations for ATC will continue.
IMO,if the Industries effected came together and advertised the true cost to the Australian public of curfews/airspace limitations etc,the Government would have a difficult time justifying themselves in these areas.
I have consulted extensively with the fairies at the bottom of my garden and they agree.
IMO,if the Industries effected came together and advertised the true cost to the Australian public of curfews/airspace limitations etc,the Government would have a difficult time justifying themselves in these areas.
I have consulted extensively with the fairies at the bottom of my garden and they agree.
Air Services Australia
I think they should learn some service form the Yanks. I am not blaming the guys in the towers, but their bosses really should be sent to a Bali Prison.
I think they should learn some service form the Yanks. I am not blaming the guys in the towers, but their bosses really should be sent to a Bali Prison.
ADSB is a no brainer, but, can someone explain to me why every capital city has a large chunk of it's available airspace made unavailable or restricted by large military airfields. Why, for example can't Pearce flying be moved a 100 miles further west, or Richmond moved to Wagga? Amberley moved to Roma? The public service only operate a handful of aircraft and mostly fly Mon-Fri 9 to 5. In smarter countries like the USA, these guys are out in the deserts.
I loved the rural areas when I lived there and will move back again. So you're saying that people are only prepared to be in the forces if they live within a few miles of the CBD and a barista bar? Princesses and concrete spring to mind...
While I have time I'll answer some of your points.
1. Move Pearce flying 100nm out west. Takes to much time in a PC9 to do that and who wants to eject that far out to sea. You may have heard about the odd shark out there?
2. Moving bases. Are you going to pay for that? To save a few minutes getting to a airport?
3. Handful of aircraft operating 9-5. Then whats your problem if they only take up the airspace for 8 hours? Like me saying RPT pilots eat only first class meals and do one sector a day and get paid more than a company CEO. Comments like that just make you look arrogant.
By all means have a discussion but don't sound like a tosser when you are doing it!
1. Move Pearce flying 100nm out west. Takes to much time in a PC9 to do that and who wants to eject that far out to sea. You may have heard about the odd shark out there?
2. Moving bases. Are you going to pay for that? To save a few minutes getting to a airport?
3. Handful of aircraft operating 9-5. Then whats your problem if they only take up the airspace for 8 hours? Like me saying RPT pilots eat only first class meals and do one sector a day and get paid more than a company CEO. Comments like that just make you look arrogant.
By all means have a discussion but don't sound like a tosser when you are doing it!