Fly-in, fly-out culture stretching air traffic
Paraburdoo is definitely looking at a radar site within the next 12 months.
A lot of mine sites are doing feasability to upgrade runways to allow direct ops to eastern states capitals. I doubt that will be happening any time soon though.
A lot of mine sites are doing feasability to upgrade runways to allow direct ops to eastern states capitals. I doubt that will be happening any time soon though.
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para ops
There was a plan out there by Rio to shut down Para and build a new airport about 18km north of Tom price that could handle direct 737 flights from the east coast, however that got shelved due to GFC.
The covers remain firmly on top of that at present.
Unfortunately, I doubt very much whether many FIFO ops would go the a fri-sun change as the companies realize that for those on a shorter work cycle, the weekend at home is important to attracting and retaining a good workforce.
For those on a longer cycle (2weeks on/off) like I work, it's not so much of an issue but my fly day works out in on Monday, out on tues, so kind of on the shoulder and flights to Perth are generally during the mid morn/mid arvo slots.
I do think the idea of east coast direct to NW or via Alice is a good idea, but it would involve a great deal of goodwill and cooperation between the 3 major miners plus a host of juniors to make the pax loads sustainable, all of which seems improbable considering that they are in competition with each other in the recruitment of employees and keep hold of any operational advantage that they can pass of as a possible benefit to their staff.
Definitely an issue that needs all of the stakeholders to sit down together though.
I do wonder though if maybe a way around some of the issues might be to look at moving some of the charter and GA type work to somewhere like northam ( or somewhere in an arc about 1-1.5 hours out of Perth) on an upgraded strip and build a dedicated high speed light rail link that can service it direct from Perth airport, with a secure parking setup built just for those people with one cheap weekly rate.
I might be dreaming but isn't that where all forward visionary planning stems from?
The covers remain firmly on top of that at present.
Unfortunately, I doubt very much whether many FIFO ops would go the a fri-sun change as the companies realize that for those on a shorter work cycle, the weekend at home is important to attracting and retaining a good workforce.
For those on a longer cycle (2weeks on/off) like I work, it's not so much of an issue but my fly day works out in on Monday, out on tues, so kind of on the shoulder and flights to Perth are generally during the mid morn/mid arvo slots.
I do think the idea of east coast direct to NW or via Alice is a good idea, but it would involve a great deal of goodwill and cooperation between the 3 major miners plus a host of juniors to make the pax loads sustainable, all of which seems improbable considering that they are in competition with each other in the recruitment of employees and keep hold of any operational advantage that they can pass of as a possible benefit to their staff.
Definitely an issue that needs all of the stakeholders to sit down together though.
I do wonder though if maybe a way around some of the issues might be to look at moving some of the charter and GA type work to somewhere like northam ( or somewhere in an arc about 1-1.5 hours out of Perth) on an upgraded strip and build a dedicated high speed light rail link that can service it direct from Perth airport, with a secure parking setup built just for those people with one cheap weekly rate.
I might be dreaming but isn't that where all forward visionary planning stems from?
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If the airport congestion gets to bad then they will just bypass it. If you can't spend the dollars wisely with the high traffic movements what will you do with no traffic? Operators and clients alike are doing something now. They aren't going to change their times. Just change their hub and bypass your mess. Lost revenue for the airport and then nothing will get fixed because they can't afford it.
F70's crossing the country. Using different hubs - Alice, Adelaide etc. Upgrading mine strips. ADSB. The clients and operators are finding their solution to your problem. Just don't go there!
F70's crossing the country. Using different hubs - Alice, Adelaide etc. Upgrading mine strips. ADSB. The clients and operators are finding their solution to your problem. Just don't go there!
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kimberleyEx
I am glad to be wrong. GNSS will be a much better and more accrate tool than the IRS sets they were using previously.
I said originally that Greg Russell had offered a solution. That was only half correct, the other half of the equation is access to a WAAS, or a GBAS. So far ASA have spent I think it was $30 million on a GBAS which was abandoned. In order to maximise to opportunities that GPS and associated tools such as ADSB offer, the second half of the problem needs to be tackled. The survey industry has had access to centimetre accurate GPS for some years, why have we made no progess in aviation?
I nominate Geoscience Australia to do it as this should be a national scheme not one owned by any specific industry.
Thanks everyone, you can go back to Qantas hating now.
Cheers
RMA
I am glad to be wrong. GNSS will be a much better and more accrate tool than the IRS sets they were using previously.
I said originally that Greg Russell had offered a solution. That was only half correct, the other half of the equation is access to a WAAS, or a GBAS. So far ASA have spent I think it was $30 million on a GBAS which was abandoned. In order to maximise to opportunities that GPS and associated tools such as ADSB offer, the second half of the problem needs to be tackled. The survey industry has had access to centimetre accurate GPS for some years, why have we made no progess in aviation?
I nominate Geoscience Australia to do it as this should be a national scheme not one owned by any specific industry.
Thanks everyone, you can go back to Qantas hating now.
Cheers
RMA
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Eddie, there are coordinated flights by strategic at present into curtain from Perth. No reason it couldn't be done via east coast port or hub bed in Alice... So it isn't all a pipe dream.
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Hi ReadmyAcars.
No probs about the ADS-B. I just wanted to point out operators are equipping for it. Just a time consuming project with some types.
Although now the mandate date from the white paper (don't quote me but Jan 2013) is approaching...
You have a very valid point with WAAS and GBAS. Although I didn't think GBAS has been abandoned. GRAS was though.
Why has it taken so long for GBAS rollout. A curved ILS (GBAS) type approach at YPPH would be handy for RWY03 off the Julim arrival!
K-Ex.
No probs about the ADS-B. I just wanted to point out operators are equipping for it. Just a time consuming project with some types.
Although now the mandate date from the white paper (don't quote me but Jan 2013) is approaching...
You have a very valid point with WAAS and GBAS. Although I didn't think GBAS has been abandoned. GRAS was though.
Why has it taken so long for GBAS rollout. A curved ILS (GBAS) type approach at YPPH would be handy for RWY03 off the Julim arrival!
K-Ex.
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I worked the radar sectors around PH for about three and a half years so I have some idea of what happens with all this.
It pains me to say it but Greg has a point. If 40 aircraft all want to depart from the one runway within 5 minutes, there's going to be a problem with delays at any airport you want to look at. Then, when there's 20 aircraft wanting to land on the one runway within a 5 minutes period (based on profile speeds), you're going to have the same problem. If you spread the FIFO flights out, you won't end up with the delays. It really is that simple. And it's not AsA's fault that this is the end result. They have no ability to improve any of the things that would help move 40 aircraft in 5 minutes. They simply provide the best service they can with the tools that they have.
The base cause of all the delays is not getting optimal use of tarmac on the ground. Put in a parallel (should be able to take at least B463/RJ if not B712) and make more use of 06/24. With these two things, the movement rate could very well double. Simple. That means, however, getting the people under final for R06 to quit whinging about noise and given how things are for AsA at the moment with the noise from WARRP, I imagine things would get very interesting with that. It also means WAC need to forego commercial ventures and use the airport for it's intended use - to move aircraft! Good luck with both of those things.
I have said it before - airspace is not the issue. On departure, the only weak link in the chain is from approach to enroute - approach are happy to run 5 miles between departures which is going to be refused by enroute everyday of the week. I was happy to have 7-ish with opening but the procedure says 10nm, no closing and when tower can launch them to give approach 3nm on departure, that means a bit of speed control to get the 10nm approach need for handover. The non-radar guys don't cause delays - they catch everything sent to them and just use levels to sort out any conflicts with the odd reroute to fix a real dilly of a pickle. If all the charter guys were to have adsb, the only improvement here would be that people would get their planned levels almost all the time.
On arrival, adsb would only help if PH TCU were to get the adsb feed. When I left 15-ish months ago, they had no feed and were not going to get it ever with the current platform (TAAATS). So adsb fit out for the charter fleet is not going to help with delays by itself. If the flow does get the adsb feed and the stations are at the right location (probably Meeka and Leonora close in), then the flow can do his thing from top of climb and help absorb delays in the cruise. In this case, if everyone sticks to their slot time, it will probably get rid of holding entirely. However, there is still only so much this can achieve. If those ridiculous days still occur when 40 aircraft all want to land in the one thirty minute block, there is going to be holding.
It pains me to say it but Greg has a point. If 40 aircraft all want to depart from the one runway within 5 minutes, there's going to be a problem with delays at any airport you want to look at. Then, when there's 20 aircraft wanting to land on the one runway within a 5 minutes period (based on profile speeds), you're going to have the same problem. If you spread the FIFO flights out, you won't end up with the delays. It really is that simple. And it's not AsA's fault that this is the end result. They have no ability to improve any of the things that would help move 40 aircraft in 5 minutes. They simply provide the best service they can with the tools that they have.
The base cause of all the delays is not getting optimal use of tarmac on the ground. Put in a parallel (should be able to take at least B463/RJ if not B712) and make more use of 06/24. With these two things, the movement rate could very well double. Simple. That means, however, getting the people under final for R06 to quit whinging about noise and given how things are for AsA at the moment with the noise from WARRP, I imagine things would get very interesting with that. It also means WAC need to forego commercial ventures and use the airport for it's intended use - to move aircraft! Good luck with both of those things.
I have said it before - airspace is not the issue. On departure, the only weak link in the chain is from approach to enroute - approach are happy to run 5 miles between departures which is going to be refused by enroute everyday of the week. I was happy to have 7-ish with opening but the procedure says 10nm, no closing and when tower can launch them to give approach 3nm on departure, that means a bit of speed control to get the 10nm approach need for handover. The non-radar guys don't cause delays - they catch everything sent to them and just use levels to sort out any conflicts with the odd reroute to fix a real dilly of a pickle. If all the charter guys were to have adsb, the only improvement here would be that people would get their planned levels almost all the time.
On arrival, adsb would only help if PH TCU were to get the adsb feed. When I left 15-ish months ago, they had no feed and were not going to get it ever with the current platform (TAAATS). So adsb fit out for the charter fleet is not going to help with delays by itself. If the flow does get the adsb feed and the stations are at the right location (probably Meeka and Leonora close in), then the flow can do his thing from top of climb and help absorb delays in the cruise. In this case, if everyone sticks to their slot time, it will probably get rid of holding entirely. However, there is still only so much this can achieve. If those ridiculous days still occur when 40 aircraft all want to land in the one thirty minute block, there is going to be holding.
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I think they should learn some service form the Yanks.
We would gladly operate under their conditions.
Read Mikks post again all of you, that is the way it is
You have to wonder what is being smoked over at the Perth Airport Corp. as they publicly state that air traffic is going to double in the next 10 years and they still don't need a new runway. PER is going to be at permanent gridlock if that happens.
Yet another example of why you don't privatise public infrastructure.
Yet another example of why you don't privatise public infrastructure.
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I've only just started working Perth arrivals and there's certainly not 10nm between deps to enroute (and neither should there be). Pretty sure flow gets the ADSB feed these days, too. Could be wrong.
I also heard that one of the big mining bosses offered to bring his earth moving equipment into Perth from one of his sites and build a new runway at his cost, in a matter of weeks. Airport owners decided a DFO was better.
I also heard that one of the big mining bosses offered to bring his earth moving equipment into Perth from one of his sites and build a new runway at his cost, in a matter of weeks. Airport owners decided a DFO was better.
I also heard that one of the big mining bosses offered to bring his earth moving equipment into Perth from one of his sites and build a new runway at his cost, in a matter of weeks
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I still think part of the problem is rosters. The industry has several standard rosters, 2 &1 (2 weeks on 1 week off) being one of them, 8 & 6 ( 8 days on 6 off),being another, and there's some worse ones. they all revolve around having ~ 1 week at home, and thats the crux of the matter. People if going to be at home want a weekend with the family (hence so called family friendly 8 & 6) but don't want to be getting over shift changes or travel on weekends.
A 2 & 2 (weeks) roster like the oil industry, Argyle etc would give companys more chance of convincing workers to fly at more convenient times. Not sure of the economics of 2 &2 versus the 8 & 6 though. One would think a smart airline company could offer significant cost savings if they could convince the miner to fly "off peak".
A 2 & 2 (weeks) roster like the oil industry, Argyle etc would give companys more chance of convincing workers to fly at more convenient times. Not sure of the economics of 2 &2 versus the 8 & 6 though. One would think a smart airline company could offer significant cost savings if they could convince the miner to fly "off peak".
rh200 the issue is the airport. Mining companies should not have to change anything because the airport can't get its act together. If everyone wants to leave at 0500 on a Monday morning so be it. The customer is always right. Perth airport are the ones who need to pull their finger out and build a new runway. They can complain all they want they are running an airport and it should be operated as such. NO OTHER INDUSTRY would tolerate such ridiculous BS.
If the mines were smart they'd consider building their own private airport for FIFO somewhere and put a bit of heat on YPPH.
If the mines were smart they'd consider building their own private airport for FIFO somewhere and put a bit of heat on YPPH.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 14th Nov 2011 at 01:58.
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Doesn't also come down to utilisation, do you build the infrastructure and buy the planes to to run a surge at a particular time, whilst 90% of the time the capacity is under utilised?
Your right, the customer is always right, but sometimes a bit of the old out of the box thinking is good.
Your right, the customer is always right, but sometimes a bit of the old out of the box thinking is good.
Apologies if this has already been mentioned but when you have one controller firing a/c off with traffic on a 4 mile final and yet another making you wait when traffic on 5 mile final, I don't believe Perth is operating at its capacity ( nor are some controllers ), certainly not compared to some airports in Asia, Hong Kong for example. Yes HKG has parallel runways but that does not mean a/c can take off and land simultaneously ( due to possibility of overshoots, and where they are routed ).
HKG also has a plethora of ridiculous airspace constraints put upon it by numerous Chinese airports nearby and china airspace in general, with this in mind they still handle up to 60 movements an hour ( predicted to go to nearly 70 within 3 years ). Another good one is holding, or reducing to ridiculous speeds to then be told to increase speed significantly, or arriving into PH airspace to find all you can hear is crickets, no, it is not rare.
Putting the flak jacket on here but is it at all possible that with ATC being a government job, there is no incentive to get creative or make work a bit harder for themselves by managing more movements ?
HKG also has a plethora of ridiculous airspace constraints put upon it by numerous Chinese airports nearby and china airspace in general, with this in mind they still handle up to 60 movements an hour ( predicted to go to nearly 70 within 3 years ). Another good one is holding, or reducing to ridiculous speeds to then be told to increase speed significantly, or arriving into PH airspace to find all you can hear is crickets, no, it is not rare.
Putting the flak jacket on here but is it at all possible that with ATC being a government job, there is no incentive to get creative or make work a bit harder for themselves by managing more movements ?
airdualbleedfault, the aircraft on final is not the only restriction for departing aircraft.
Sequences get changed, for instance because an aircraft didn't meet it's stack departure time. You depart 30 seconds early & they depart 90 seconds late & you've got dead heat at the threshold. Who are we going to pick to try & fix this? The guy we think will win. So of course he gets maxxed up to try to reduce the bloody great gap in the sequence.
Be creative? Can you be creative with operating procedures on the flight deck? Fine until somebody f@#ks up & then it's crucifixion.
Movement caps aren't decided by operational controllers. We just get to work within those constraints.
Sequences get changed, for instance because an aircraft didn't meet it's stack departure time. You depart 30 seconds early & they depart 90 seconds late & you've got dead heat at the threshold. Who are we going to pick to try & fix this? The guy we think will win. So of course he gets maxxed up to try to reduce the bloody great gap in the sequence.
Be creative? Can you be creative with operating procedures on the flight deck? Fine until somebody f@#ks up & then it's crucifixion.
Movement caps aren't decided by operational controllers. We just get to work within those constraints.
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What Aussie ATC's & ASA Managers think is busy may not be busy for those experienced internationally. Comparing Perth ATC to Hong Kong ATC may not be realistic.
Having said that Aussie ATC's are constrained by some ridiculously pedantic (an*l) "rules". They have to spend a lot of mental effort covering their bums instead of working traffic. But I guess that is what ASA Management think is "World's Best Practice" or whatever lame cliche they are throwing around these days.
Having said that Aussie ATC's are constrained by some ridiculously pedantic (an*l) "rules". They have to spend a lot of mental effort covering their bums instead of working traffic. But I guess that is what ASA Management think is "World's Best Practice" or whatever lame cliche they are throwing around these days.
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traffic on a 4 mile final and yet another making you wait when traffic on 5 mile final
still handle up to 60 movements an hour
plethora of ridiculous airspace constraints
ATC being a government job
If everyone wants to leave at 0500 on a Monday morning so be it.