QF Solution on Offer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All that yesterday has confirmed is, one way or another, Qantas International is set to change.
Keeping Qantas Australian desperately needs fresh vision. Clearly more of the same isn’t going to change what’s already afoot.
Qantas has some very valuable assets (route rights, landing slots, aircraft orders, etc), attractive not only to Jetstar, but also to astute investors skilled at picking over airlines in distress.
As they say, opportunity is born out of adversity and there is a window of opportunity to use yesterday’s outcome to build momentum necessary for an employee backed bid for Qantas, but it requires action now.
Keeping Qantas Australian desperately needs fresh vision. Clearly more of the same isn’t going to change what’s already afoot.
Qantas has some very valuable assets (route rights, landing slots, aircraft orders, etc), attractive not only to Jetstar, but also to astute investors skilled at picking over airlines in distress.
As they say, opportunity is born out of adversity and there is a window of opportunity to use yesterday’s outcome to build momentum necessary for an employee backed bid for Qantas, but it requires action now.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: NSW
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
INDEPENDENT senator Nick Xenophon says a special inquiry may be needed to resolve the industrial dispute between Qantas and three of its unions.
The South Australian senator said the inquiry should have the powers of a royal commission.
"These actions by Qantas management are just extraordinary," he said on ABC Radio today.
"It has implications going well beyond an industrial dispute. It has national interest implications."
He claimed Fair Work Australia did not have the jurisdiction to delve into the issues at the core of the dispute, including claims by Qantas management its international operations were losing money.
Any further industrial action should be suspended, he added, pending the outcome of a judicial inquiry.
The South Australian senator said the inquiry should have the powers of a royal commission.
"These actions by Qantas management are just extraordinary," he said on ABC Radio today.
"It has implications going well beyond an industrial dispute. It has national interest implications."
He claimed Fair Work Australia did not have the jurisdiction to delve into the issues at the core of the dispute, including claims by Qantas management its international operations were losing money.
Any further industrial action should be suspended, he added, pending the outcome of a judicial inquiry.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christmas Island
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Leigh ... Remember this tripe that dribbled from your lips
• Mr Clifford has responded that it is not the board's place to resolve industrial disputes, saying this should be worked out between the management and staff. He went on to say: "The reality is that there is need for significant change in this organisation. That doesn't mean we*don't respect the hard work and the loyalty of our employees".
U pack of
ts
• Mr Clifford has responded that it is not the board's place to resolve industrial disputes, saying this should be worked out between the management and staff. He went on to say: "The reality is that there is need for significant change in this organisation. That doesn't mean we*don't respect the hard work and the loyalty of our employees".
U pack of
ts
Smart lawyers will argue there is NO threat to Australia's essential service.
Strategic Airlines Perth and Brisbane today, ramped up DJ and JQ, domestic SQ, EY and 8 738 fro DL ready on standby.
Could get messier and messier. Back right off and let the plan to sack you/have you resign collapse. If you dont scabs will take your job. Consider your self warned.
Strategic Airlines Perth and Brisbane today, ramped up DJ and JQ, domestic SQ, EY and 8 738 fro DL ready on standby.
Could get messier and messier. Back right off and let the plan to sack you/have you resign collapse. If you dont scabs will take your job. Consider your self warned.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: N/A
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1a,
Scabs will take 'your' job....The word 'your' in this context is a bit rich. Some people would be hoping that the scabs will arrive in droves so that most of those LH menacing pilots and engineers can finally be sacked. Shareholders would be popping champagne corks by now. Anyone who thinks a drop in the share price is a given, think again! That may not happen and if it does, most of those 98% voters will step in and support the stock if it falls anyhow. Like I said before, hook line and sinker!
NP
Scabs will take 'your' job....The word 'your' in this context is a bit rich. Some people would be hoping that the scabs will arrive in droves so that most of those LH menacing pilots and engineers can finally be sacked. Shareholders would be popping champagne corks by now. Anyone who thinks a drop in the share price is a given, think again! That may not happen and if it does, most of those 98% voters will step in and support the stock if it falls anyhow. Like I said before, hook line and sinker!
NP
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just watched an interview which AJ admitted that the failed take over bid would have been a mistake and that hindsight shows this. Hindsight also shows that the executive should have purchased B777s and that freight cartels and Vietnam are a bad idea. Even their mighty Jetstar plan has seriously damaged their international product apparently.
I am having trouble finding an executive decision that in hindsight has been a good move.
I am having trouble finding an executive decision that in hindsight has been a good move.
Whispering "T" Jet
If John Borghetti was running Qantas it would not be in the mess that it now finds itself.
NewPiper = QF management TROLL. cart_elevator - Yes, stop feeding!!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: -28.1494 / 151.943
Age: 68
Posts: 463
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Could get messier and messier. Back right off and let the plan to sack you/have you resign collapse. If you dont scabs will take your job. Consider your self warned.
How many of you are currently driving a fully imported car instead of one made here?, until we all wake up it's not gonna get any better.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many of you are currently driving a fully imported car instead of one made here?
It's called self-sufficiency and keeping control of my own maintenance and keeping the dollars in house.
If they pay me out, that wouldn't be so bad. The mortgage would be paid off, I can sit on government benefits for a while until I find another job and just keep swimming.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An 'us-versus-them' workplace is just bad business
Nothing that has happened in the bitter Qantas dispute suggests that the "big end of town", in support of Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce, has learnt much at all about workplace democracy.
The dispute has all the hallmarks of traditional adversarial industrial relations being played out that, in the end, may have to be settled by some form of arbitration.
This is not, however, just a dispute about executive salaries and staff wage levels but rather about three key unions and thousands of employees wanting to protect their jobs. The real issue here goes even further than job security. The employees have no real say in discussions and major decisions that affect them — and Qantas is not alone in operating this way.
Is it not high time that we investigated a better way of managing relations between employers and employees? A way does exist: give staff a stake in the business, a financial stake and a voice....................................................!
If nothing is done, Australia will continue along this adversarial industrial relations path, which helps neither employers nor employees as evidenced by the damage done to Qantas.
Dr Klaas Woldring is a retired former Associate Professor at Southern Cross University and is honorary secretary of the Australian Employee Ownership Association.
Source: http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opinion/politics/an-usversusthem-workplace-is-just-bad-business-20111103-1mxdf.html
Nothing that has happened in the bitter Qantas dispute suggests that the "big end of town", in support of Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce, has learnt much at all about workplace democracy.
The dispute has all the hallmarks of traditional adversarial industrial relations being played out that, in the end, may have to be settled by some form of arbitration.
This is not, however, just a dispute about executive salaries and staff wage levels but rather about three key unions and thousands of employees wanting to protect their jobs. The real issue here goes even further than job security. The employees have no real say in discussions and major decisions that affect them — and Qantas is not alone in operating this way.
Is it not high time that we investigated a better way of managing relations between employers and employees? A way does exist: give staff a stake in the business, a financial stake and a voice....................................................!
If nothing is done, Australia will continue along this adversarial industrial relations path, which helps neither employers nor employees as evidenced by the damage done to Qantas.
Dr Klaas Woldring is a retired former Associate Professor at Southern Cross University and is honorary secretary of the Australian Employee Ownership Association.
Source: http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opinion/politics/an-usversusthem-workplace-is-just-bad-business-20111103-1mxdf.html
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: australia
Age: 74
Posts: 907
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
November 03, 2011
Why should a Pilot* earn less than a manager?
Klaus Schwab, Founder and Executive Chairman, World Economic Forum
Criticism of capitalism has increased in recent months. Protest movements, such as "Occupy Wall Street," are outraged at the excesses of bankers who, according to the protesters, bear the main responsibility for the current economic crisis – but apparently are not being held responsible. A growing number of voices from different parts of society are now showing solidarity with the anti-capitalism activities and reflecting the widespread frustration felt by citizens.
Undoubtedly, these anti-capitalist protests have their finger on the pulse of our time. But it is not enough to simply condemn capitalism for its undeniable excesses. We need a deeper analysis of why the capitalist system, in its current form, no longer fits the world around us.
When the crisis began in January 2009, I said in my opening speech in Davos: “Today, people from every corner of the globe ask how it was possible that decisions could be taken, led by greed or incompetence and with no effective oversight − decisions that had terrible consequences, not only for the global economy but also for real people, who have lost their pensions, their homes or their jobs. They feel bewildered, confused, scared and angry.” At that time it was expected that the crisis would lead to a fundamental re-evaluation of the behaviour of senior managers in business as a whole and above all in financial services. Nearly three years have now gone by and we have still not learned the lessons from past mistakes. The system that has led us into the crisis has been outdated for years. We will not overcome the crisis in the long term if we continue to deny the need to overhaul the system. There are three reasons why capitalism needs to be reformed:
Above all, the manager’s job must be re-professionalized. The fact that talent has now become the key success factor is often used as justification by companies for paying exorbitant salaries and bonuses. But talent is not the crucial factor only for the manager’s profession, but for any kind of job. Why should an outstanding pilot (QF32)* earn less than a mediocre manager? Why should a surgeon of worldwide renown earn less than the CEO of a global company? Of course, ideally everyone should earn according to their responsibility and performance. But the main professional motivation should be ones vocation - and not simply the desire to make a profit. Separating managers and risk-takers will also reign in those financial transactions where profits benefit individuals but risks are collectivized, meaning the average tax-payer must shoulder the burden when things go wrong. In short, we need to move from excessive capitalism to a market economy in which social responsibility and obligations are not just empty words.
*= not part of the original text.
*= teacher in original text.
changed for effect.
Why should a Pilot* earn less than a manager?
Klaus Schwab, Founder and Executive Chairman, World Economic Forum
Undoubtedly, these anti-capitalist protests have their finger on the pulse of our time. But it is not enough to simply condemn capitalism for its undeniable excesses. We need a deeper analysis of why the capitalist system, in its current form, no longer fits the world around us.
When the crisis began in January 2009, I said in my opening speech in Davos: “Today, people from every corner of the globe ask how it was possible that decisions could be taken, led by greed or incompetence and with no effective oversight − decisions that had terrible consequences, not only for the global economy but also for real people, who have lost their pensions, their homes or their jobs. They feel bewildered, confused, scared and angry.” At that time it was expected that the crisis would lead to a fundamental re-evaluation of the behaviour of senior managers in business as a whole and above all in financial services. Nearly three years have now gone by and we have still not learned the lessons from past mistakes. The system that has led us into the crisis has been outdated for years. We will not overcome the crisis in the long term if we continue to deny the need to overhaul the system. There are three reasons why capitalism needs to be reformed:
- Capitalism is out of balance. The use of virtual capital for the purposes of speculation in relation to the use of capital in the real economy has exploded beyond any reasonable proportion and is now out of control. Financial operations to balance out the risks are necessary but not transactions that speculate on the speculation itself.
- In the original system of capitalism there was a clear distinction: between the entrepreneur, who bears the risk of the investment and is therefore rewarded with the profit; and the manager, whose professional task is to secure the long term future of the company in the interest of all stakeholders. As a result of an excessive bonus system, the manager became associated with the interests of the capital owners and this has perverted the system. This is the fundamental root problem of the current situation: excessive salaries have severely undermined the business ethos for managers.
- Capital is no longer the decisive factor of production in today's global economy. Competitive advantage is increasingly determined by innovative ideas or immaterial services, and less on the basis of capital. Additionally, with a rise in the standard of living, the general emphasis is shifting from quantity to quality. Economic success of tomorrow will no longer decided by capital but rather by the production factor "talent". So in a sense, we are moving from capitalism to "talentism."
Above all, the manager’s job must be re-professionalized. The fact that talent has now become the key success factor is often used as justification by companies for paying exorbitant salaries and bonuses. But talent is not the crucial factor only for the manager’s profession, but for any kind of job. Why should an outstanding pilot (QF32)* earn less than a mediocre manager? Why should a surgeon of worldwide renown earn less than the CEO of a global company? Of course, ideally everyone should earn according to their responsibility and performance. But the main professional motivation should be ones vocation - and not simply the desire to make a profit. Separating managers and risk-takers will also reign in those financial transactions where profits benefit individuals but risks are collectivized, meaning the average tax-payer must shoulder the burden when things go wrong. In short, we need to move from excessive capitalism to a market economy in which social responsibility and obligations are not just empty words.
*= not part of the original text.
*= teacher in original text.
changed for effect.
Last edited by blow.n.gasket; 4th Nov 2011 at 15:35.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: gold coast QLD australia
Age: 86
Posts: 1,345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about the possibility of approaching Twiggy Forrest, Nathan Tinkler et al, some have shown interest in keeping QF in Australia, indeed one of them posted on PPRUNE offering help in this way, and were advised to contact the AIPA. I am more than happy to get into the Greens piggy bank and do my bit, and if many of us could and would and those not able to yet could come in by stealth, giving what they can, we just might pull this off. Just imagine a QF with happy staff, the right aircraft, the right routes, offering the cabin crew a career instead of a contract, the engineering unit restored, and everyone giving 101%. like TE and Virgin, we could shine. Oh and offer Borgetti a block of flats to come back. Dream on I guess, but without a dream, we have nothing.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Here & There
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Consider if you will, today’s ‘bold print’ regarding what’s happening at Qantas.
Which, in Struggling’s opinion, is ‘code’ for:
· The Government and the Unions reaching Sale Act agreement, and
· Making Jetstar independent of, but associated with Qantas OneWorld.
Bring it on I say.
· The Unions- we’re not giving up,
· Joyce warns of Qantas Break-up, and
· Dixon – Qantas cannot walk away from mergers.
· Joyce warns of Qantas Break-up, and
· Dixon – Qantas cannot walk away from mergers.
· The Government and the Unions reaching Sale Act agreement, and
· Making Jetstar independent of, but associated with Qantas OneWorld.
Bring it on I say.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: NSW
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Employee Share Ownership Suggested as a Solution for QANTAS.
The Australian Employee Buyout Centre called this week on Alan Joyce, CEO of Qantas and the heads of the three unions in the dispute with Qantas to embrace employee share ownership as a solution.
From: http://www.aeoa.org.au/0024/default.asp?id=72
The Australian Employee Buyout Centre called this week on Alan Joyce, CEO of Qantas and the heads of the three unions in the dispute with Qantas to embrace employee share ownership as a solution.
Elena Kirillova, Chairman of AEBC said "The Unions are concerned that Qantas management is committed to cutting costs and moving jobs off-shore as part of the Asia strategy. There is insufficient focus in the debate on the extent to which Qantas can relocate to Asia in view of the restrictions imposed on Qantas by the Qantas Sale Act..
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: canberra
Age: 77
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has anyone else noticed that WoodenEye, Struggling, and Gingerbread are the only posters who post with black letters in lieu of blue letters and more to the point, generally espousing generally the same views?
Is it too sinister to think they might be the same person?
I'm told that WoodenEye is the former AIPA President having been forced to move on to his next dream by his constituency.
Is it too sinister to think they might be the same person?
I'm told that WoodenEye is the former AIPA President having been forced to move on to his next dream by his constituency.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: NSW
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your mistaken Clotted.
The constituency did not tell Woods to move on from his dream as you put it. Woods won the 2007 popular vote with the pilots, but was then politically undermined by some on his committee with lies and spin that is only now becoming obvious to those still interested in what took place way back then.
That same constituency is now asking:
· Why AIPA pulled funding for the previous president’s Qantas Sale Act case the night before the hearing, and
· Why AIPA is not yet articulating a strategy that will put Qantas and its pilots on the same page.
Yep! AIPA has a lot riding on upcoming arbitration and how the Qantas Sale Act will be applied.
Even if those you like to play the man and not the ball feel otherwise, believe Woods is quite comfortable with what’s going down.
Good luck to you. I think you are going to need it.
The constituency did not tell Woods to move on from his dream as you put it. Woods won the 2007 popular vote with the pilots, but was then politically undermined by some on his committee with lies and spin that is only now becoming obvious to those still interested in what took place way back then.
That same constituency is now asking:
· Why AIPA pulled funding for the previous president’s Qantas Sale Act case the night before the hearing, and
· Why AIPA is not yet articulating a strategy that will put Qantas and its pilots on the same page.
Yep! AIPA has a lot riding on upcoming arbitration and how the Qantas Sale Act will be applied.
Even if those you like to play the man and not the ball feel otherwise, believe Woods is quite comfortable with what’s going down.
Good luck to you. I think you are going to need it.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aer Lingus pilots seek 4% stake in company
PILOTS AT Aer Lingus have sought a 4 per cent stake in the company in return for agreeing to generate savings of up to €30 million as part of an overall recovery deal at the airline.
Aer Lingus is seeking to make savings of €97 million by the end of 2011 across a range of activities, and has been in negotiations with unions on the plan for several weeks. The restructuring would see the airline shedding 676 jobs. However, Aer Lingus has warned that if no agreement is reached on the cost-saving measures by today it will press ahead with measures unilaterally – a move that could see several hundred additional staff being let go.
Aer Lingus has warned that it will ground aircraft and cut both short-haul and transatlantic routes in the absence of a deal. The additional job cuts would be compulsory redundancies. An “extraordinary” meeting of the Aer Lingus board will be held this evening at its head office at Dublin airport to consider the outcome of the talks with unions.
In a statement released yesterday, Aer Lingus chief executive Christoph Mueller said the board would take “decisions to proceed with alternative means of delivering the savings within the same timeframe as the plan in the absence of [an] agreement”.
It is understood the pilots have offered to generate €30 million in savings through greater productivity. In return, the pilots have sought a 4 per cent stake in the listed airline. Based on yesterday’s closing price of 55.5 cent, this would be worth €11.7 million.
It is understood that Aer Lingus’s management has ruled out this proposal on the basis that it could not favour one group of workers by offering them shares in the business. In addition, it not clear what mechanism Aer Lingus would use to issue the shares. Its stock is tightly held, with Ryanair owning 29.6 per cent and the Government holding 25 per cent of the stock.
The pilots currently own more than 4.5 per cent of Aer Lingus between their pension fund and an entity called Tailwind Nominees, which bought shares in the airline at the time of Ryanair’s first bid for its rival.
If the stake sought by the pilots was granted, Aer Lingus staff could end up owning about 23 per cent of the airline when the existing employee share ownership trust (Esot) – which has a 14.4 per cent stake – was taken into account.
Various options have been examined by unions and management in recent weeks to generate the savings sought by the company. Unions are opposed to cuts in pay, while management is disputing whether the level of savings proposed by unions would actually be realised.
Commenting on this yesterday, Mr Mueller said: “We acknowledge that savings have been offered. However, it is critical that savings must be delivered in a full and meaningful way from 2010 and not deferred beyond the timeframe of the plan. This has not been the case so far.”
Aer Lingus has warned that if the overall cost-saving plan is not agreed by today it will introduce measures unilaterally. The airline and unions spent several hours yesterday at the Labour Relations Commission to try and secure a final deal on the overall cost-reduction plan...
From: The Irish Times - Tue, Dec 01, 2009 - Aer Lingus pilots seek 4% stake in company
PILOTS AT Aer Lingus have sought a 4 per cent stake in the company in return for agreeing to generate savings of up to €30 million as part of an overall recovery deal at the airline.
Aer Lingus is seeking to make savings of €97 million by the end of 2011 across a range of activities, and has been in negotiations with unions on the plan for several weeks. The restructuring would see the airline shedding 676 jobs. However, Aer Lingus has warned that if no agreement is reached on the cost-saving measures by today it will press ahead with measures unilaterally – a move that could see several hundred additional staff being let go.
Aer Lingus has warned that it will ground aircraft and cut both short-haul and transatlantic routes in the absence of a deal. The additional job cuts would be compulsory redundancies. An “extraordinary” meeting of the Aer Lingus board will be held this evening at its head office at Dublin airport to consider the outcome of the talks with unions.
In a statement released yesterday, Aer Lingus chief executive Christoph Mueller said the board would take “decisions to proceed with alternative means of delivering the savings within the same timeframe as the plan in the absence of [an] agreement”.
It is understood the pilots have offered to generate €30 million in savings through greater productivity. In return, the pilots have sought a 4 per cent stake in the listed airline. Based on yesterday’s closing price of 55.5 cent, this would be worth €11.7 million.
It is understood that Aer Lingus’s management has ruled out this proposal on the basis that it could not favour one group of workers by offering them shares in the business. In addition, it not clear what mechanism Aer Lingus would use to issue the shares. Its stock is tightly held, with Ryanair owning 29.6 per cent and the Government holding 25 per cent of the stock.
The pilots currently own more than 4.5 per cent of Aer Lingus between their pension fund and an entity called Tailwind Nominees, which bought shares in the airline at the time of Ryanair’s first bid for its rival.
If the stake sought by the pilots was granted, Aer Lingus staff could end up owning about 23 per cent of the airline when the existing employee share ownership trust (Esot) – which has a 14.4 per cent stake – was taken into account.
Various options have been examined by unions and management in recent weeks to generate the savings sought by the company. Unions are opposed to cuts in pay, while management is disputing whether the level of savings proposed by unions would actually be realised.
Commenting on this yesterday, Mr Mueller said: “We acknowledge that savings have been offered. However, it is critical that savings must be delivered in a full and meaningful way from 2010 and not deferred beyond the timeframe of the plan. This has not been the case so far.”
Aer Lingus has warned that if the overall cost-saving plan is not agreed by today it will introduce measures unilaterally. The airline and unions spent several hours yesterday at the Labour Relations Commission to try and secure a final deal on the overall cost-reduction plan...
From: The Irish Times - Tue, Dec 01, 2009 - Aer Lingus pilots seek 4% stake in company
