DASH 8 accident in PNG
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Warrior, are you for real? "Who knows who cares, get over it"? Try telling that to the families of over 70 dead people in less than a decade. Not to mention the Dash 8 crash being one of the worst crashes in the Australia pacific region in 30 years.
Lets see your family's body parts scraped out of a smouldering wreck and we can all see if you still say "who knows, who cares, get over it"??
And yeah, Exxon Valdez, nice work they did of the environment. Amazing what fatigue, lack of procedures and a cowboy attitude and greed can do! Now where have I seen that before? Oh yes........
Lets see your family's body parts scraped out of a smouldering wreck and we can all see if you still say "who knows, who cares, get over it"??
And yeah, Exxon Valdez, nice work they did of the environment. Amazing what fatigue, lack of procedures and a cowboy attitude and greed can do! Now where have I seen that before? Oh yes........
Last edited by Cactusjack; 18th Jul 2013 at 12:57.
Cactus, Whilst we all have a fair idea what triggered the Dash 8 accident it isn't exactly fair to point the finger at individuals or an organisation. The whole industry in general has a lot to learn from this tragic event, the same event could have occurred to any operator.
The behaviour of blaming individuals or organisations for tragic accidents or incidents doesn't do anything positive in promoting aviation safety
The behaviour of blaming individuals or organisations for tragic accidents or incidents doesn't do anything positive in promoting aviation safety
Last edited by Waghi Warrior; 18th Jul 2013 at 22:59.
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Pith Helmet,
Unsure about the website, but the US Ambassador is certainly travelling on APNG, so I guess the restriction has been lifted.
If you intend posting accident records , why not also post all of Talair's accidents and tie these to FlightWest and then Alliance. The links between the totally different company's and relevance are about the same...... Original owner and ?????? or BOAC and British Airways (don't forget the Comet, at least it has more in common with the B747-400 than an islander flown single pilot, has in common with a DHC-8).
Whilst I understand your (and CJ's) need to publically display your vitriol against Skytrans (after all it was them who fired both of you, a decision supported by FWA), why you tie the great staff work in PNG up in this I am not sure.
Unsure about the website, but the US Ambassador is certainly travelling on APNG, so I guess the restriction has been lifted.
If you intend posting accident records , why not also post all of Talair's accidents and tie these to FlightWest and then Alliance. The links between the totally different company's and relevance are about the same...... Original owner and ?????? or BOAC and British Airways (don't forget the Comet, at least it has more in common with the B747-400 than an islander flown single pilot, has in common with a DHC-8).
Whilst I understand your (and CJ's) need to publically display your vitriol against Skytrans (after all it was them who fired both of you, a decision supported by FWA), why you tie the great staff work in PNG up in this I am not sure.
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Sorry MachTwelve, haven't worked for your airline so I am unsure where your information (inaccurate to say the least) comes from. However i do have friends at the airline you mention (some have moved on) and I don't know pith helmet either, so I can't speak for he/she. I notice you are very protective of your airline and don't mind having a shot at your competition Heavilift, so you are I guess a little bit hypocritical. At the end of the day I am driven by the death of a very close personal pilot and from that day several years ago I have vowed to say it the way it is, sometimes that is shunned and other times embraced, so be it. But I no longer have any tolerance for any airline that has crashed, killed, injured or put others lives at risk in any way, shape or form in pursuit of the mighty dollar.
CJ,
You may need to do your homework again.
"very protective of your airline and don't mind having a shot at your competition Heavilift"
No such competitor.....
Have you ever operated in PNG
You may need to do your homework again.
"very protective of your airline and don't mind having a shot at your competition Heavilift"
No such competitor.....
Have you ever operated in PNG
In the Post Courier today but the website won't let me in. Free subscription offered but no confirmation email arrives (tried two different email addresses)
Probe into Airlines PNG crash underway
The PNG Accident Investigations Commission has progressed investigations into the Airlines PNG plane crash in Madang in 2011 which claimed 28 lives.
The PNG Accident Investigations Commission has progressed investigations into the Airlines PNG plane crash in Madang in 2011 which claimed 28 lives.
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Couldn't see anything on the AIC website and I couldn't be bothered joining the newspapers subscription base.
Anybody else got any info or update on the APNG investigation status? It's been two years now.
Anybody else got any info or update on the APNG investigation status? It's been two years now.
From Post Courier
Probe into Airlines PNG crash underway
By JACOB POK
The PNG Accident Investigations Commission has progressed investigations into the Airlines PNG plane crash in Madang in 2011 which claimed 28 lives.
Chief Commissioner of the PNG Accident Investigations Com-mission Nema Yalo said yesterday that the investigation into the accident has come to a stage where findings of the commissions were delivered to persons and stakeholders directly involved in the accident for their comments and feedbacks.
Mr Yalo said the commission would not release any information on the progress of the investigations at this stage according to aviation investigations laws, until it receives responses from directly involved persons.
"The directly involved persons would involve the aircraft manufactures or manufacturers of parts of aircrafts. It also involves immediate families of the victims involved in the accident for their feedback on the findings of the commission," Mr Yalo said.
He said the commission would not be able to provide a definite time as to when the final reports would be ready. "As to when the reports would be ready is a matter of process. It is not like investigating simple traffic accident on the road as there are international Civil Aviation rules that must be followed. It takes a lot of time when relevant parts of the planes are sent out to manufactures for analysis and inspections," Mr Yalo said.
He added that the commission does not have any control of how long investigations would take but only wait for the reports to be sent back to them in order to pursue further.
The commission also called on airline operators to be extra cautious in the Christmas period because there were frequent aviation accidents occurring unlike in the past.
By JACOB POK
The PNG Accident Investigations Commission has progressed investigations into the Airlines PNG plane crash in Madang in 2011 which claimed 28 lives.
Chief Commissioner of the PNG Accident Investigations Com-mission Nema Yalo said yesterday that the investigation into the accident has come to a stage where findings of the commissions were delivered to persons and stakeholders directly involved in the accident for their comments and feedbacks.
Mr Yalo said the commission would not release any information on the progress of the investigations at this stage according to aviation investigations laws, until it receives responses from directly involved persons.
"The directly involved persons would involve the aircraft manufactures or manufacturers of parts of aircrafts. It also involves immediate families of the victims involved in the accident for their feedback on the findings of the commission," Mr Yalo said.
He said the commission would not be able to provide a definite time as to when the final reports would be ready. "As to when the reports would be ready is a matter of process. It is not like investigating simple traffic accident on the road as there are international Civil Aviation rules that must be followed. It takes a lot of time when relevant parts of the planes are sent out to manufactures for analysis and inspections," Mr Yalo said.
He added that the commission does not have any control of how long investigations would take but only wait for the reports to be sent back to them in order to pursue further.
The commission also called on airline operators to be extra cautious in the Christmas period because there were frequent aviation accidents occurring unlike in the past.
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Who will be accountable?
Link to the final accident report below;
http://www.aic.gov.pg/pdf/P2-MCJ%20A...l%20Report.pdf
- Primary root cause of the accident has been identified as "pilot error".
- Some of the causal factors identified in the report were;
• Nil use of the QRH while several emergencies were taking place
• Nil use of emergency procedures
• Operators training system had been ineffective for an incident or occurrence of this type
Seems Toomey ran away just in time, so with whom will the corporate 'accountability' now lay with? The current CEO? The MD? Who pays the price for the 28 charred corpses? APNG from my recollection have killed around 90 people in total over the years. Will management yet again hide behind the lawyers and politicians and remain protected and escape accountability?
http://www.aic.gov.pg/pdf/P2-MCJ%20A...l%20Report.pdf
- Primary root cause of the accident has been identified as "pilot error".
- Some of the causal factors identified in the report were;
• Nil use of the QRH while several emergencies were taking place
• Nil use of emergency procedures
• Operators training system had been ineffective for an incident or occurrence of this type
Seems Toomey ran away just in time, so with whom will the corporate 'accountability' now lay with? The current CEO? The MD? Who pays the price for the 28 charred corpses? APNG from my recollection have killed around 90 people in total over the years. Will management yet again hide behind the lawyers and politicians and remain protected and escape accountability?
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APNG's pathetic response
Typical politicized response. Throw some spin on the accident, and feather your response by incorporating comments from the report such as “In the majority of aircraft accidents over the years, there have been multiple contributing factors. The AIC Report clearly points to the fact that the forced landing near Madang was no exception - with human factors, “a systemic design issue” and other factors all combining to cause this tragic event”. APNG have conveniently left out admitting here that the root cause of the accident was that the PIC stuffed up! If he had not incorrectly selected the levers through the gate in the first place the overspeed would not have occurred and a perfectly serviceable aircraft would not have crashed killing 28 people. There were many many Dash 8’s flying around the world at the time of this accident and you didn’t see them crashing from incorrect selections.
APNG says “The Report identifies that the crew unintentionally selected the aircraft’s power levers below flight idle (effectively into reverse) whilst in flight”. Obviously the PIC never intended to crash a plane on that fateful day, however he did make a fundamental inexcusable error which caused this accident.
APNG says “The AIC Report also noted that a similar pilot error had occurred on several previous occasions elsewhere in the world. That action caused the aircraft’s propellers to overspeed, which in turn triggered the events that left the flight crew no option but to force land the aircraft”. What APNG leaves out however is that with the Madang crash is that after the PIC made his mistake and all hell broke loose the pilots did not use the QRH, the pilots did not use emergency procedures, the pilots spent too much time talking to the tower, and the pilots had not received training for such a potential occurrence, and the company was at fault for that. In fact the report says that even after selecting reverse they still could have probably saved the aircraft and prevented the crash.
I believe the press release is not only evasive and some might say misleading, it is a slap in the face for the innocent who died and the loved ones they have left behind. The CEO, Managing Director and Board members should hang their heads in shame for agreeing to and/or authorising this response. What a disgrace and an attempt to shift the blame. APNG yet again have blood on their hands and yet again act dishonoraably with their response.
ACOUNTABILITY ACOCUNTABILITY ACCOUNTABILITY I say. Someone needs to be held to account over this accident.
The pathetic press release is here;
News
APNG says “The Report identifies that the crew unintentionally selected the aircraft’s power levers below flight idle (effectively into reverse) whilst in flight”. Obviously the PIC never intended to crash a plane on that fateful day, however he did make a fundamental inexcusable error which caused this accident.
APNG says “The AIC Report also noted that a similar pilot error had occurred on several previous occasions elsewhere in the world. That action caused the aircraft’s propellers to overspeed, which in turn triggered the events that left the flight crew no option but to force land the aircraft”. What APNG leaves out however is that with the Madang crash is that after the PIC made his mistake and all hell broke loose the pilots did not use the QRH, the pilots did not use emergency procedures, the pilots spent too much time talking to the tower, and the pilots had not received training for such a potential occurrence, and the company was at fault for that. In fact the report says that even after selecting reverse they still could have probably saved the aircraft and prevented the crash.
I believe the press release is not only evasive and some might say misleading, it is a slap in the face for the innocent who died and the loved ones they have left behind. The CEO, Managing Director and Board members should hang their heads in shame for agreeing to and/or authorising this response. What a disgrace and an attempt to shift the blame. APNG yet again have blood on their hands and yet again act dishonoraably with their response.
ACOUNTABILITY ACOCUNTABILITY ACCOUNTABILITY I say. Someone needs to be held to account over this accident.
The pathetic press release is here;
News
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Although a 'beta lockout' mechanism did exist for DHC-8-100,-200, and -300 series aircraft which prevented the propellers from going into reverse even if the power levers were moved into the beta range during flight, this mechanism was only required by regulation to be installed in DHC-8 aircraft operating in the USA. It was not required to be fitted to DHC-8 aircraft in Papua New Guinea, and it was not fitted to MCJ.
If a beta lockout mechanism had been installed on the aircraft, the double propeller overspeed would not have occurred when the power levers were moved below the flight idle range and in the ground beta range during flight. Installation of this mechanism is now mandatory on DHC-8 aircraft worldwide by 19 June 2016.
I bet they still haven't fitted the lock-outs yet though.
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Hempy, the power levers on the Dash do not have a detent at the flight idle stop. Discing (below flight idle) requires pulling the triggers to unlock the power levers below the flight idle gate.
There is however, a detent between discing and reverse.
Australian registered Dash 8's are fitted with an aural alarm which will sound if one or more of the triggers are pulled in flight.
There is however, a detent between discing and reverse.
Australian registered Dash 8's are fitted with an aural alarm which will sound if one or more of the triggers are pulled in flight.
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AIC CEO David Inau interview about the crash-APNG at fault
Good interview below. The AIC CEO pretty much sums up the cause of the accident. Let's see what spin APNG can drum up to cover over this;
Pilot error contributes to PNG crash | Pacific Beat | ABC Radio Australia
I really hope that lessons have and will be learned from this. The accident is damning against APNG as an airline. And with its previous history of crashes and around 100 people dead you would imagine that the time has come for some accountability to be measured out? What have or are the CAA going to do? Sit on their hands again? Will the government finally stand up and say enough is enough of this sort of occurrence in PNG? Will APNG at the very minimum, remove the current CEO who cannot be absolved of accountability just because he started after the accident occurred. What will the public, contracted parties and current or potential investors think about this? How will the accidents root cause affect the insurance payouts, future premiums and financial viability of the airline? Will the Board and Managing Director step aside?
It cannot be forgotten that this accident is probably the worst to occur in the Australia Pacific region in 40 years. 28 people on this occasion are dead. Justice must be sought for those who are now resting in peace.
Also another take on the accident;
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-p...adly-PNG-crash
And the potential merger of APNG with Air Niugini iced;
http://www.alternativeairlines.com/a...ed-and-opposed
Prime Minister Somare said;
Pilot error contributes to PNG crash | Pacific Beat | ABC Radio Australia
I really hope that lessons have and will be learned from this. The accident is damning against APNG as an airline. And with its previous history of crashes and around 100 people dead you would imagine that the time has come for some accountability to be measured out? What have or are the CAA going to do? Sit on their hands again? Will the government finally stand up and say enough is enough of this sort of occurrence in PNG? Will APNG at the very minimum, remove the current CEO who cannot be absolved of accountability just because he started after the accident occurred. What will the public, contracted parties and current or potential investors think about this? How will the accidents root cause affect the insurance payouts, future premiums and financial viability of the airline? Will the Board and Managing Director step aside?
It cannot be forgotten that this accident is probably the worst to occur in the Australia Pacific region in 40 years. 28 people on this occasion are dead. Justice must be sought for those who are now resting in peace.
Also another take on the accident;
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-p...adly-PNG-crash
And the potential merger of APNG with Air Niugini iced;
http://www.alternativeairlines.com/a...ed-and-opposed
Prime Minister Somare said;
He also cites Airlines PNG’s low profitability, its reliance on charters to mining projects and its poor safety record against that of Air Niugini, which has never had an accident
Last edited by Paragraph377; 16th Jun 2014 at 23:30.
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Fugitive
While it is easy to say,pilot error,what other factors combined to cause two experienced pilots to lose it?of course it was pilot error,but what caused these experienced pilots to get to the point where they lost the plot?
It is time that AIC look at management,they seem to be left out of the investigations.
Reading the report,the Captain had been sick,the F/O had been called off reserve,the aircraft was not fully serviceable,flight controls not fully operational and no auto pilot;it had apparently been U/S for a number of days,
Don't call it pilot error,call it management error.
It looks like the old CRM Swiss cheese problem again.
Take care of the pilots,they did their best.:
It is time that AIC look at management,they seem to be left out of the investigations.
Reading the report,the Captain had been sick,the F/O had been called off reserve,the aircraft was not fully serviceable,flight controls not fully operational and no auto pilot;it had apparently been U/S for a number of days,
Don't call it pilot error,call it management error.
It looks like the old CRM Swiss cheese problem again.
Take care of the pilots,they did their best.:
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Its no better then apng in a lot of ways
Check out the stats - December 92 to October 2011, total looks to be 83, compared to November 1973 to Date is Nil.
Let the knockers and naysayers do the maths.
T B E.
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Take care of the pilots, they did their best.:
Irrespective of the Report, any media can be wise after the event.
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Reading the report,the Captain had been sick,the F/O had been called off reserve,the aircraft was not fully serviceable,flight controls not fully operational and no auto pilot;it had apparently been U/S for a number of days,
Don't call it pilot error,call it management error.
Don't call it pilot error,call it management error.
