Decline in Pilot Salaries Survey
Sprucegoose
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I might be a little low to start, given a plumber is now on $100/hr but it's a start.
Sprucegoose
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So how does a metro carrying $320k worth of flight crew wages make money?
We can't have someone making $380,000 as a Captain of an A380, and an SO of same making $180,000 plus and FO somewhere inbetween,
Is that affordable?
For the companies a shortage of pilots means they can't get what they want at the price they want to pay.
Advertise a right seat jet job with a free endorsement and $250 000 salary for bare CPL holders and you will be fighting them off with a stick.
Advertise a B777 Captain position requiring check and training approvals 10 000 hours total/5000 command on type offering a $100 000 salary and I doubt you'd get a single response.
There is NO shortage of applicants for airline F/O positions from pilots with a new licence/no endorsement/no time on type/no jet time etc.
There is a shortage of endorsed/experienced/high standard jet captains in the growing markets of Asia and the Middle East, with companies in less desirable locations and those who offer lesser terms and conditions finding it worse.
In Asia an A320 Captain with a good licence who performs well on a sim check can walk into a job virtually anywhere right now, especially a trainer. Less desirable locations such as inland China are having to put some attractive $$$ on the table.
Hold files are still full of applicants who will need lots of training and $$$ spending on them. Bins are full of applications from those totally unsuitable.
Advertise a right seat jet job with a free endorsement and $250 000 salary for bare CPL holders and you will be fighting them off with a stick.
Advertise a B777 Captain position requiring check and training approvals 10 000 hours total/5000 command on type offering a $100 000 salary and I doubt you'd get a single response.
There is NO shortage of applicants for airline F/O positions from pilots with a new licence/no endorsement/no time on type/no jet time etc.
There is a shortage of endorsed/experienced/high standard jet captains in the growing markets of Asia and the Middle East, with companies in less desirable locations and those who offer lesser terms and conditions finding it worse.
In Asia an A320 Captain with a good licence who performs well on a sim check can walk into a job virtually anywhere right now, especially a trainer. Less desirable locations such as inland China are having to put some attractive $$$ on the table.
Hold files are still full of applicants who will need lots of training and $$$ spending on them. Bins are full of applications from those totally unsuitable.
Last edited by Metro man; 23rd Sep 2011 at 06:25.
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From 40deg on page 1 -
I've done only the odd visit to Oz over the past 20 years and
copped a dose of culture shock each time. The PC, rampant
AGW, commies and restrictive bull**** even just to go buy a
packet of Codrals at the chemist shop are disgusting in the
extreme - and don't even get me started on the tax!
As "unboiled" frogs 40deg we've been away for so long we no
longer fit in. Our offshore lifestyles are way above anything
we could hope to retain in Oz, and the country is so bloody
expensive you can say goodbye to the luxuries you take for
granted overseas.
I'm resolved never to go back except for the odd visit every 5
or so years, and those pilots I do know in Oz with any talent I
give encouragement to get out of the place in order to realise
their full potential. Staying in the so-called "lucky country" is
anything but.
....and have serious doubts as to whether I will even retire there now.
copped a dose of culture shock each time. The PC, rampant
AGW, commies and restrictive bull**** even just to go buy a
packet of Codrals at the chemist shop are disgusting in the
extreme - and don't even get me started on the tax!
As "unboiled" frogs 40deg we've been away for so long we no
longer fit in. Our offshore lifestyles are way above anything
we could hope to retain in Oz, and the country is so bloody
expensive you can say goodbye to the luxuries you take for
granted overseas.
I'm resolved never to go back except for the odd visit every 5
or so years, and those pilots I do know in Oz with any talent I
give encouragement to get out of the place in order to realise
their full potential. Staying in the so-called "lucky country" is
anything but.
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I think the answer is charge a realistic price pre seat to fly 
And I also agree with the post that Executives high salaries are completely out of step. I have posted numerous times, that pilots are required to reach performance standards, nothing are seemingly required of over paid execs and useless HR departments
And I also agree with the post that Executives high salaries are completely out of step. I have posted numerous times, that pilots are required to reach performance standards, nothing are seemingly required of over paid execs and useless HR departments
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To return to the pros and cons of the datal seniority system, why in an industry full of smart people, is there no such thing as an "industry seniority number" (for want of a better term)?
About 30 years ago , I was perusing the magazine library of the Union office of the overseas airline I was flying for at the time, and came across an essay on the subject written by (I think ) a US airline captain.
He proposed a kind of a points system --licence issue date was a part of it, but mostly it was a complex assignment of weightings to your flying history--types, acheivement levels,hours, etc etc and ended up with a big multi-digit number.
If memory serves me, I think this was intended to be used to help out in a major airline merger/takeover situation of the day ,where the now familiar bogey man of two seniority ladders being pushed together was about to be faced.
It was not a replacement for datal company seniority, but an addition to it--I guess to be used when transferring to a new employer--slotting in at first in accordance with your "industry number" and then datal as usual within the Company after that.
I dont know what became of it, but I often think of the idea when I read yet again about highly experienced airline pilots starting at the bottom again over and over again through no fault of their own.
To use an old example, a doctor does not start over washing bedpans just because he transfers to a new hospital.
Surely there is a system apart from "datal with one company only" that can work--you can bet the airline industry executive collective would be dead against it--which is a case of the gauges trying to tell you something.
Datal seniority serves mainly as handcuffs (bad for you--unless you like that sort of thing....and good for them)
Does anyone know whether systems such as this exist anywhere in todays' airline pilot world --and if so how effective is it?
My only reservation is that it would need the entire world wide pilot body to stick together ---and do something which involve delayed gratification.
About 30 years ago , I was perusing the magazine library of the Union office of the overseas airline I was flying for at the time, and came across an essay on the subject written by (I think ) a US airline captain.
He proposed a kind of a points system --licence issue date was a part of it, but mostly it was a complex assignment of weightings to your flying history--types, acheivement levels,hours, etc etc and ended up with a big multi-digit number.
If memory serves me, I think this was intended to be used to help out in a major airline merger/takeover situation of the day ,where the now familiar bogey man of two seniority ladders being pushed together was about to be faced.
It was not a replacement for datal company seniority, but an addition to it--I guess to be used when transferring to a new employer--slotting in at first in accordance with your "industry number" and then datal as usual within the Company after that.
I dont know what became of it, but I often think of the idea when I read yet again about highly experienced airline pilots starting at the bottom again over and over again through no fault of their own.
To use an old example, a doctor does not start over washing bedpans just because he transfers to a new hospital.
Surely there is a system apart from "datal with one company only" that can work--you can bet the airline industry executive collective would be dead against it--which is a case of the gauges trying to tell you something.
Datal seniority serves mainly as handcuffs (bad for you--unless you like that sort of thing....and good for them)
Does anyone know whether systems such as this exist anywhere in todays' airline pilot world --and if so how effective is it?
My only reservation is that it would need the entire world wide pilot body to stick together ---and do something which involve delayed gratification.
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Im on the old terms at CX, and ex Aus GA. Wow, how have have changed. Buying type ratings, doing ICUS for free. Wow.Where have we gone wrong? Its old and new pilots to blame.
We need to get hard and fight for better terms,all we have done (you) is cheapen the industry. Thank goodness my children have no wish to fly. They want to fly for pleasure but not for money. They grew up where no money was enough for them not to have a DAD home. These prick accountants have no idea. I would come home after a east coast US trip and not be smile for a week.
I spoke to a collegue who said that one child phsyc was seeing 4 of CX pilots. And again accountants want us to work for less!!!
So my fellow Aussie pilots.........You decide!! DO WANT the big shiny jet for peanuts? or are you smarter?
PS I have been to the australian industrial courts, there great and close to bars to celerbrate your win. STRIKE NOW and dont be ****** over. Family needs you
We need to get hard and fight for better terms,all we have done (you) is cheapen the industry. Thank goodness my children have no wish to fly. They want to fly for pleasure but not for money. They grew up where no money was enough for them not to have a DAD home. These prick accountants have no idea. I would come home after a east coast US trip and not be smile for a week.
I spoke to a collegue who said that one child phsyc was seeing 4 of CX pilots. And again accountants want us to work for less!!!
So my fellow Aussie pilots.........You decide!! DO WANT the big shiny jet for peanuts? or are you smarter?
PS I have been to the australian industrial courts, there great and close to bars to celerbrate your win. STRIKE NOW and dont be ****** over. Family needs you
To use an old example, a doctor does not start over washing bedpans just because he transfers to a new hospital.
The system survived due to the relatively long upgrade time in legacy airlines with ten to twenty years being normal. Nobody left and upgrades depended on someone either dying or retiring. There were plenty of ten year first officers who had been ready for promotion for the last five or six years and taking direct entry captains would have been unfair on them. DECs are acceptable where there are no first officers suitable to upgrade or for an expanding start up which needs experienced captains immediately.
Also the number of major airlines in a country is limited and can usually be counted on one hand, where as there are several hospitals in every town and city giving the opportunity to slot a doctor in at a level appropriate to his qualifications and experience without treading on anyone elses toes.
Truly terrifying stuff ZB
I fear only airlines that can afford to park significant numbers of their fleets without going bankrupt will survive.
Worst case I know, but I have a bad feeling. Hope I (We) Are wrong.
I fear only airlines that can afford to park significant numbers of their fleets without going bankrupt will survive.
Worst case I know, but I have a bad feeling. Hope I (We) Are wrong.
Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 26th Sep 2011 at 11:44.
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S Stuffer: Wash your mouth out with soap! When you challege the sacred cow of seniority, you invite all sorts of accusations from being a 'queue jumper' to $c@b. Have you not heard,that those who use some common sense approach to promotion are howled down as being down there with the kiddy fiddlers? 
I actually read the same article some time ago and element of it were reasonable and logical. as you say, there are practical difficulties with an "industry seniority" number. Ansett post '89 had an "Experience Number for Promotion" which used a similar approach to generation of promotional order and ranking. Pilots were required to submit log books to a JP and swear oaths on their hours flown. In one comic example, an individual claimed that his log book was clasified a secret by the US military as he undertook 1000's of hours of spy and covert missions
As someone who is now, through no fault of my own, re-building my aviation career for the 3rd time
, I would suppport such a system. However I think that companies should be able to promote the person with the most merit. THis could mean DEs where no suitable person exists in the organisation for promotion. It would also mean that an experienced and well qualified pilot should get promoted over someone who has scant experience. Having said this, time in the company is one constituant of merit.
The application of datal seniority is full of holes anyway. Witness the number of companies that say they promote datally, yet find loopholes or massage the system to promote who they want. A proper 'merit' based system would have a promotions committee with representation from the C&T system and unions and even a rank and file nominated observer as well as management. This would ensure fairness ans transparency
I actually read the same article some time ago and element of it were reasonable and logical. as you say, there are practical difficulties with an "industry seniority" number. Ansett post '89 had an "Experience Number for Promotion" which used a similar approach to generation of promotional order and ranking. Pilots were required to submit log books to a JP and swear oaths on their hours flown. In one comic example, an individual claimed that his log book was clasified a secret by the US military as he undertook 1000's of hours of spy and covert missions
As someone who is now, through no fault of my own, re-building my aviation career for the 3rd time
, I would suppport such a system. However I think that companies should be able to promote the person with the most merit. THis could mean DEs where no suitable person exists in the organisation for promotion. It would also mean that an experienced and well qualified pilot should get promoted over someone who has scant experience. Having said this, time in the company is one constituant of merit.The application of datal seniority is full of holes anyway. Witness the number of companies that say they promote datally, yet find loopholes or massage the system to promote who they want. A proper 'merit' based system would have a promotions committee with representation from the C&T system and unions and even a rank and file nominated observer as well as management. This would ensure fairness ans transparency
Last edited by Anthill; 26th Sep 2011 at 04:38.
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Slasher Post #68
You obviously don't travel much:Pseudoephedrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Look at the other nations that restrict drugs that have Pseudoephedrine.
That was your opinion but here is the objective data:2009 Tax Misery & Reform Index - Forbes.com
Why would you bother if it is such an awful place?
We don't miss whingers one little bit!
If you want something to complain about buy a "one way" ticket to Greece.
just to go buy a packet of Codrals at the chemist shop are disgusting in the extreme -
Look at the other nations that restrict drugs that have Pseudoephedrine.
and don't even get me started on the tax!
I'm resolved never to go back except for the odd visit every 5 or so years
We don't miss whingers one little bit!
If you want something to complain about buy a "one way" ticket to Greece.
I'm with slasher here, Australia is a nice place to visit and I enjoy doing so every 2-3 years. But the 45% tax bracket and left wing politically correct nanny state I can do without.
It's a great place to be non working single mother or to enjoy an alternative lifestyle at tax payer expense. Where else would a woman choose to get a divorce with the system so biased in her favour ?
For a straight white male who's not milking the system it's not so great.
I'll stay in Asia and have a millionaire lifestyle on airline pay.
It's a great place to be non working single mother or to enjoy an alternative lifestyle at tax payer expense. Where else would a woman choose to get a divorce with the system so biased in her favour ?
For a straight white male who's not milking the system it's not so great.
I'll stay in Asia and have a millionaire lifestyle on airline pay.
Im with slasher and metro man.
It gets worse and worse. Try owning a boat or a car and using the way you would use them in any other country in the world!
The union movement has developed into a mass of people whose expertise is simply in putting yellow stickers on corners of anything lest someone bump into them. This has carried itself through to the highest levels of lawmaking.
It is very depressing to be in Australia from that perspective.
And yes, ludicrously expensive for basic things.
It gets worse and worse. Try owning a boat or a car and using the way you would use them in any other country in the world!
The union movement has developed into a mass of people whose expertise is simply in putting yellow stickers on corners of anything lest someone bump into them. This has carried itself through to the highest levels of lawmaking.
It is very depressing to be in Australia from that perspective.
And yes, ludicrously expensive for basic things.
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Framer, you need to get out and venture more outside a little more. I would never go out in so many parts of Sydney and feel safe. Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Taiwan and so many other parts of Asia are so much safer than Sydney. I feel very happy to let my children to go out alone in HK, but not a hope in Sydney.
The Chinese value families and children and could teach Australians so much. Just look how the Australian courts send pedophiles free and DOC's never look after those they should.All you have to do is open an Australian paper most days to see these stories re-occuring.
I think the only dangerous part of asia is the taxi and mini bus drivers
I'm staying here for the safety of my family and the strong family values here!
Framer, all the best in Sydney, although I would suggest (for your sake and personal growth) you atleast get out and see what this wonderful culture has to offer.
The Chinese value families and children and could teach Australians so much. Just look how the Australian courts send pedophiles free and DOC's never look after those they should.All you have to do is open an Australian paper most days to see these stories re-occuring.
I think the only dangerous part of asia is the taxi and mini bus drivers
I'm staying here for the safety of my family and the strong family values here!
Framer, all the best in Sydney, although I would suggest (for your sake and personal growth) you atleast get out and see what this wonderful culture has to offer.
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Again subjective!
BUT it doesn't agree with this objective data - 3 independent surveys.
The Economist's World's Most Liveable Cities 2011 (Top 10)
World's most livable cities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Notice the Asian cities NOT in the in the Top 10 list!
The Economist's World's Most Liveable Cities 2011 (Top 10)
City Country Rating
1 Melbourne Australia 97.5
2 Vienna Austria 97.4
3 Vancouver Canada 97.3
4 Toronto Canada 97.2
5 Calgary Canada 96.6
6 Sydney Australia 96.1
7 Helsinki Finland 96.0
8 Perth Australia 95.9
9 Adelaide Australia 95.9
10 Auckland New Zealand 95.7
Mercer Quality of living survey
Quality of Living Survey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also - Most Liveable Cities Index - Monocle Magazine
So - did they get all these surveys wrong?
40Deg STH -I would never go out in so many parts of Sydney and feel safe.
The Economist's World's Most Liveable Cities 2011 (Top 10)
World's most livable cities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Notice the Asian cities NOT in the in the Top 10 list!
The Economist's World's Most Liveable Cities 2011 (Top 10)
City Country Rating
1 Melbourne Australia 97.5
2 Vienna Austria 97.4
3 Vancouver Canada 97.3
4 Toronto Canada 97.2
5 Calgary Canada 96.6
6 Sydney Australia 96.1
7 Helsinki Finland 96.0
8 Perth Australia 95.9
9 Adelaide Australia 95.9
10 Auckland New Zealand 95.7
Mercer Quality of living survey
Quality of Living Survey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also - Most Liveable Cities Index - Monocle Magazine
Important criteria in this survey are safety/crime,
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Slasher, metro man et al...count me in as well...left 3 years ago...looking back it was the best move I ever made in aviation (there have'nt been many so I wouldn't get too excited)...coming back to australia and watching some of the morning shows and what makes for news here is a real shock...little Johnny was bullied at school etc...unbelievable!!!
Still...stop telling everyone or you'll ruin a good thing
Still...stop telling everyone or you'll ruin a good thing
