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Decline in Pilot Salaries Survey

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Decline in Pilot Salaries Survey

Old 19th Sep 2011, 12:01
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Interesting SMOC. The current EBA at Voz has gone from merit based promotion to a common datal system with Virgin Blue. This means that the Senior FOs will probably not see a B777 command. Instead, they are all now datally aligned within a common group.

However, the company knows that many SFOs have the experience and ability to easily get a job elsewhere. Most have had previous jet commands and could be tempted by a direct entry position in another company (ie the LLC that SQ plan to start with B777s). The result has been that current SFOs will get command by-pass pay after 5 years under the new EBA. Their salary also went up by about $22k.

Here is an example of a salary incentive brought on by management (it wasn't AFAP or VIPA behind this) in an attempt to retain staff. The lure of command pay, if not a command, will probably not ensure that all SFOs stay, but goes a long way to retain existing staff. This could only happen in an industrial environment where people have the scope to move on into other positions and not have to start at the bottom each time.
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Old 19th Sep 2011, 12:10
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Anthill, who introduced the idea of the seniority system to VOz? actually that doesn't really matter but if it was the airline that proposed it perhaps they saw the writing on the wall for an airline without one!

It's interesting that the creation of the seniority system included improvements in pay, I think long term it will result in a reduction in senior pay, so it's possible that removal of seniority would cause losses in pay (the initial bloodbath) but long term perhaps pay rises??? I've always wondered if a union approached an airline to get rid of seniority would the airline accept the proposal.

The advantage for current crew would be you could leave and try greener pastures, if they were no good you could 'try' and come back, the point being there's a chance to come back in the same position as opposed to going right to the bottom or no chance/point to come back. Also some airlines want a known quantity in the left seat they can't afford to lose them after investing so much money.

The answer to if seniority is the problem probably lies in what the airline would say to the proposal to remove seniority, if they said NO then clearly seniority benefits the airline and more than the crews.

I'm not against seniority, I just think airlines use the system against us. We use it for one thing the company uses it for another.

A BA skipper told me law firms once used a seniority system which had the same effect of guys accepting low pay as they moved towards the top, unable to leave as they would start at the bottom of a new law firm at even lower pay. I suspect we need to worry less about our position in the airlines ie S/O, F/O or Capt. and worry more about pay. Who wouldn't take a demotion if you got a pay rise! While what happens now is we are willing to take a pay cut for a promotion.

Last edited by SMOC; 19th Sep 2011 at 12:59.
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Old 19th Sep 2011, 12:46
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I suspect HHs 96% pay rise since 2006 is the result of promotion/promotions so not really relevant. Anthill, DECs are great for those who have the experience and/or the correct coloured shirt from a previous life hanging in the closet, but realistically DECs on Jets in Oz are like rocking horse poo.
I don't think there will ever be a pilot shortage in Oz because most realise there is a good reason why they pay so well overseas, and it's not because of the clean air or wide open spaces.
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Old 19th Sep 2011, 14:35
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if it was so fun to clean windows, I would do it for free, same thing with tennis, soccer, hang out with girls, cinema...and flying.

this is why they can reduce your salary to the lowest they can, because you fly for fun!

oh, and don't tell me it s not true, because if it was, airline will pay a fortune to get pilots, or people will run away.

I bet you will go work for free if tomorrow your boss tell you no money for you.

at the end, YOU are the one who chose this job, you are the one who sign contract or work for free. Don't blame now the industry to lower your salary and other non sens stories that you don't have the choice, don't play the little hypocrit with me

I have been in the industry, and another type of industry where I asked money for my work or they don't see my face.My salary request is even printed on my CV and I got paid like the millions of people who WORK everydday all around this planet, no playing at the airline pilot..

Do you think a window cleaner will pay to work? ask him and see.
I asked my neighbour if he work for free, he laughed at me!he told me pilots are a bunch of idiots with kid's dreams.

he is right!pilot shortage? never!as long pilot stay dumb, your salary will go lower and lower. I Quit.take my job, I keep my money for my food.
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Old 19th Sep 2011, 19:59
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Pilots will work for free. I've seen an example where a couple of dudes went to the company and offered to fly a bigger type for the same money they're on to defeat the seniority system.

I've also seen a collection of guys stab a whole heap of others in the back, given up lots of conditions for a modest pay rise and promotion to another type ahead of their ex-mates.

One guy contacted the airline I work for and said his son would work for allowances only, no pay.

Airlines know pilots are suckers in general and not hard-nosed wharfies and will use divide-and-rule tactics to get what they want.
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Old 20th Sep 2011, 00:05
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Anthill

Your assessment of the impact of datal seniority is absolutely correct, however i'm not sure i agree with your view of removing it.

If QF were to move away from datal seniority it would be pilots from other airlines that would benefit, not the QF pilots. Same goes for VA. Imagine what would be happening at VA right now (given the current turmoil at QF) if VA did not have a form of seniority. The VA pilots would be at risk of being swamped by more experienced QF pilots. Why would VA pilots risk that. You might say "but if QF did not have datal seniority, then it would work out", but then QF and VA would be vulnerable to expats taking senior positions.

In the end, if every airline did it, sure it would probably balance out, but i can't see any way of unwinding it now that it is in place. Additionally, merit based systems always seem attractive to those further down the list invariably have an over inflated opinion of their own ability and tend to have a dim view of those further up the list. That's all well and good, but how do you
diiferentiate two pilots who go to work, do their job and follow SOP's? Are they any better or worse than the guy who dealt with the turbine failure and stuck
the 380 into SIN with 100m of rwy remaining? We don't know because they
may not have had the opportunity to demonstrate their ability. Your best pilots are usually the ones management never hear about. They just do their job quietly and professionally then go home. Merit based systems create the
environment for bad behaviour from both management and pilots.

To borrow from Winston Churchill, seniority is the worst possible form of pilot management, except for all the others.

On another note, VIPA and AIPA were absolutely responsible for the 5 year command pay guarantee for VA F/O's. It came as a response to both unions demands to ensure VA F/O's did not get completely screwed as a result of the proposed integration of the Virgin pilot groups.
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Old 20th Sep 2011, 02:54
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There has never been a pilot shortage and given the amount of pilots training there never will. When Qantas starts taking people with a bare cpl and an instrument rating and cannot fulfill slots then I will believe it.
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Old 20th Sep 2011, 03:06
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Ok I am not trying to argue that our Industry and Profession is not under attack from several quarters but having checked the T&C that VB pilots have experienced over the last few years it is not all doom and gloom and backwards movement.

Again not trying to start a pissing competition but 737 Command Salary 2002 was $113,300 plus retention of $15000 plus a 2% Bonus = $130,566

Current EBA which is about to expire has a minimum 737 Command salary of $190,889.
From personal experience I know that $250,000 is achievable with overtime/day off payments.

Additional 9% Super, overnight allowances, and Loss of Licence $2300, Training/Checking 10%/15% add to that package.

Some will argue that we are working a lot harder - and yes we do - but also acknowledge that a minimum of 11/12 off in 28 with an average 13/14 off and sometimes 18 off in 28 is not a bad balance with our work commitments.

Do we have challenges YES, are all pilots satisfied NO, will there be improvements YES

My point is that a reasonable remuneration package IS achievable with the support of a good negotiating team and a proactive pilot group.

Listening to some here on PPrune and it's a very different mindset.

I guess I am a glass half full person.
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Old 20th Sep 2011, 05:27
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The one thing going for pilots is that the job is regulated by the government. Look no further than the Tiger debacle.

Other jobs in engineering (most anyway), load control, fuelling, reservations, etc are regulated by company rules and therefore the lowest common denominator applies.

Airlines would love to be able to issue their own pilot's licences, but it ain't gonna happen.

WTF would it be like if they did?

Last edited by skol; 20th Sep 2011 at 07:22.
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Old 20th Sep 2011, 07:32
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Groundstaff pay and conditions

This may be off the track in terms of pilot remuneration but with the current Q ground crew and baggage handlers strike and pay claim, does anyone know what these folk are paid?

I can't really comment whether their strike is justified, I think any strike action should be last resort but it seems to me that in the current environment, 15% over 3 years seems a big ask.

I seem to recall that with shift allowances etc., these people were getting paid pretty good money in the region of $60,000 - $80,000?

It's not easy work in the baggage handling dept., but I would be interested to see how they compare for example with an intensive care nurse doing shift work.
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Old 20th Sep 2011, 11:03
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From informal discussions over the years with both nurses and ramp workers, I believe it's about the same as far as Qantas goes. The independent GHS companies generally pay less and/or have poorer conditions. Nurses have had a few pay increases in recent years due to shortages so that may have changed and they may now be ahead.

Nursing has other advantages, in that it's more flexible than aviation work irt choice of employers, type of work available and hours. Many are also government employees (particularly in emergency and intensive care) with the ensuing job security and superannuation benefits. There are also better options available for promotion and career advancement, which should be expected as it's a profession. Top of the line hospital nurse managers are on well over 100K a year (maybe more these days) but it's competitive at that level, you're chained to a desk and have to deal with government ministers.

Nursing is appallingly underpaid because a lot of people are nurses for the love of it and wouldn't do anything else. Therefore, they get screwed. Same with ambos, firies and coppers.
Sound familiar, Captains?

My dear sister is a nurse and a bloody good one. Back in the good ol' days when Qantas was a desirable employer she and her colleagues were getting mightily screwed by a major hospital. "Go be a hostie", was my advice. "It's the same money, less responsibility and you get to go to all sorts of places". She wouldn't do it. "I'm a nurse" was the explanation. Admirable? Absolutely. Rampantly exploited by unscrupulous employers, including the state governments? Every time.

When it comes to pay and conditions, health workers are a bad example to use because they're just too damned honourable. If they were paid their true worth, the states would be broke within a week.

Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 20th Sep 2011 at 11:28.
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Old 20th Sep 2011, 11:12
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There has never been a pilot shortage and given the amount of pilots training there never will.
This information is available in the CASA annual reports.

Licences issued each year as below:


YEAR 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

ATPL 373 ... 332 .... 378 ... 488 ... 521 .. 425 486

CPL 804 ...... 670 987 .... 1162 1352 ... 1453 1344

Draw from that whatever conclusion you like but it seems to me that after the drop in training in the early noughties, there has been a rebound.

It is interesting to note the total number existing each year.

Total "current" licences.

.............. 2004 ......... 2010

ATPL .... 6028 ........ 6825

CPL ...... 4019 ........ 4189

Whatever these figures mean there is no question that experience levels for entry level turboprop and jet jobs are getting lower each year. We see it with recruitment. The progression from piston to turboprop to jet was always pretty well followed. Now we see people skip the turboprop step.

I make no comment on whether that is good or bad. I do feel the figures together with anecdotal evidence suggest a tightening supply of pilots.

Did VA negotiate a "good" agreement with their crew to hold on to them?

Many on these board like to compare us to doctors and lawyers. Look how they control their income. You cannot become a GP unless you can get a medicare provider number, these are strictly limited. You also need to be admitted to "the college". Legal numbers are similarly controlled by entry to "the bar". In aviation, anyone with a reasonable brain and enough funds can get a licence and for the most part a paying job.

Someone once told me that your salary is simply a reflection of how hard it is to replace you. Apply that logic to many fields and it seems about right.

Last edited by Icarus2001; 20th Sep 2011 at 11:40.
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Old 20th Sep 2011, 11:35
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I'd be interested to know what proportion of the CPLs are permanent Australian residents. I reckon a large number of those would be international students.

ATPLs are more likely to be Australians and the increase is an interesting trend. Thanks Icarus.
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Old 20th Sep 2011, 11:43
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Yes I think that would be useful. I do know from a friend at a large college training overseas sponsored cadets, that their cadets only get an Australian Student Pilots Licence. Their CPL is issued by their home country following a flight test conducted in Australia by an ATO from "home".
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Old 20th Sep 2011, 11:57
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Many on these board like to compare us to doctors and lawyers.
Actually in Qld at least, lawyers have been facing serious oversupply issues for years. This has gotten worse with the recent Moynihan reforms that do away with committals (boring legal issue that basically means less work for the existing barrister pool) and means that a hell of a lot of lawyers are underworked.

Because barristers are essentially self employed this is not reflected in the unemployement statistics, because like self employed tradies they're not actually out of work, just not doing anything at the moment or for the forseeable future . As I understand it, if you have an LLB, a barrister to sponsor you and no objections, you can effectively be admitted to the Bar. Doesn't mean there's any work for you, any more than having an ATPL guarantees an airline job.

Solicitors' firms have been hit by the GFC as badly as other service providers, in that it's cheaper to settle/suck up an injustice than take action, similar to putting up with your five year old car/partner versus getting a new model (even if the old model/car now whines a bit and isn't as shiny as it/she once was ).

Seriously, many people in the professions are as worried and uncertain as everyone else is. I can't speak for the quacks, but the lawyers aren't nearly as much in control as they like to tell everyone. If you're listening to them banging on about how awesome it all is...just remember, they're professional BS artists who'll lie to you for practice. The reality? They're as scared as everyone else about what the future holds.


Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 20th Sep 2011 at 12:10.
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Old 20th Sep 2011, 19:36
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Region set for travel boom, says Boeing

5:30 AM Wednesday Sep 21, 2011


Expand

Boeing's Oceania outlook forecasts 5.5 per cent annual growth in traffic over the next 20 years as the region establishes stronger connections with other Asia-Pacific nations and the world.

New Zealand and Australia will be caught in a global aviation boom that will demand hundreds of thousands of new commercial pilots and technicians over the next two decades, according to projections from Boeing.
Soaring growth will also push fleet modernisation by the world's airlines, and force changes in strategies that are already emerging in the transtasman market.
For Oceania - essentially New Zealand and Australia - the latest annual Boeing pilot and technician outlook predicts that increased traffic, liberalisation of markets and changing business strategies will push demand for aircraft and skills.
It says that around 1000 new aircraft will be delivered to Oceania in the next 20 years, including 670 single-aisle models for routes within the region and to Southeast Asia.
About 260 additional twin-aisle airliners and 30 large aircraft will be needed for international routes. Another 3600 pilots and 15,600 technicians will be required to fly and maintain them.

The Oceania outlook forecasts 5.5 per cent annual growth in traffic over the next 20 years as the region establishes stronger connections with other Asia-Pacific nations and the world.
It says that most of this growth will be driven by flights to and from the region - rather than within it - as the importance of Southeast Asia grows as an waypost to the rest of the world.
Traffic between Australia and China is expected to rise rapidly as demand for flights grows with resources trade and investment, and increasing tourism.
The outlook also forecasts more connecting flights to North America and the Middle East.
It says the region's aviation market has already changed dramatically as airlines redefined themselves amid economic uncertainty, including the launch of Qantas subsidiary Jeststar to counter the rise of rival low-cost carriers.
Virgin Blue had tried to compete with Qantas by creating a spinoff airline, V Australia, but had since changed its strategy and was now rebranding all of its airlines under the name Virgin Australia.
And Air New Zealand had continued to innovate with the introduction this year of its new fleet of long-range, wide-bodied Boeing 777-300ER airliners, fitted with economy Skycouch seats.
But the outlook warns the sector will come under pressures as it competes for skills in an increasingly fierce global market.
Boeing Flight Services chief customer officer Roei Ganzarski said the signs of a global pilot shortage were mounting as airlines expanded their fleets and flight schedules to meet surging demand in emerging markets. Delays and operational disruptions were already beginning to appear in Asia, the strongest-growing market.
"To ensure the success of our industry as travel demand grows, it is critical that we continue to foster a talent pipeline of capable and well-trained aviation personnel," Ganzarski said.
"We are competing for talent with alluring hi-tech companies and we need to do a better job showcasing our industry as a global, technological, multi-faceted environment where individuals from all backgrounds and disciplines can make a significant impact."
The outlook says the wider Asia-Pacific region will require 182,300 new pilots and 247,400 new technicians over the next two decades - especially China, which alone will need 72,700 pilots and 108,300 technicians.
Northeast Asia will need 20,800 pilots and 30,200 technicians, Southeast Asia 47,100 pilots and 60,600 technicians, and Southwest Asia 28,100 pilots and 32,700 technicians.
In addition, Europe will need 92,500 pilots and 129,600 technicians, North America 82,800 pilots and 134,800 technicians, Latin America 41,200 pilots and 52,500 technicians, the Middle East 36,600 pilots and 53,000 technicians, Africa 14,300 pilots and 19,000 technicians, and the CIS (former Soviet republics) 9900 pilots and 13,500 technicians.
To cope, the outlook says the sector will need to keep pace with technology, including online and mobile computing, in order to match the learning styles of pilots and technicians.
"The growing diversity of pilots and maintenance technicians in training will require instructors to have cross-cultural and cross-generational skills in addition to digital training tools and up-to-date knowledge of the airplanes."

GROWTH PATH
* Boeing says around 1000 new aircraft will be delivered to Oceania in the next 20 years.
* Another 3600 pilots and 15,600 technicians will be needed to fly and maintain them.
* Annual growth in Oceania forecast to be 5.5 per cent over 20 years. Pressure will be on for enough pilots and technicians to cater for demand
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Old 20th Sep 2011, 23:28
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3600 more pilots over the next 20 years in our region is hardly a looming shortage.

And because Management reckon that we live in 'paradise' we will continue to be paid peanuts. And most of us will accept peanuts.

Of course there is always China......
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Old 21st Sep 2011, 00:13
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Icarus2001
Quote:
There has never been a pilot shortage and given the amount of pilots training there never will.
This information is available in the CASA annual reports.

Licences issued each year as below:


YEAR 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

ATPL 373 ... 332 .... 378 ... 488 ... 521 .. 425 486

CPL 804 ...... 670 987 .... 1162 1352 ... 1453 1344

Draw from that whatever conclusion you like but it seems to me that after the drop in training in the early noughties, there has been a rebound.

It is interesting to note the total number existing each year.

Total "current" licences.

.............. 2004 ......... 2010

ATPL .... 6028 ........ 6825

CPL ...... 4019 ........ 4189

Whatever these figures mean there is no question that experience levels for entry level turboprop and jet jobs are getting lower each year. We see it with recruitment. The progression from piston to turboprop to jet was always pretty well followed. Now we see people skip the turboprop step.

I make no comment on whether that is good or bad. I do feel the figures together with anecdotal evidence suggest a tightening supply of pilots.

Did VA negotiate a "good" agreement with their crew to hold on to them?

Many on these board like to compare us to doctors and lawyers. Look how they control their income. You cannot become a GP unless you can get a medicare provider number, these are strictly limited. You also need to be admitted to "the college". Legal numbers are similarly controlled by entry to "the bar". In aviation, anyone with a reasonable brain and enough funds can get a licence and for the most part a paying job.

Someone once told me that your salary is simply a reflection of how hard it is to replace you. Apply that logic to many fields and it seems about right.
I see where you are getting at but this is no reflection to the amount of jobless pilots out there. I remember when I finished my training in 2006, in a stream of 23 only 3 managed to get jobs straight away. About 5 of them never went on to get a flying gig and have since then simply 'given up'. Not because they couldn't be bothered looking, because there were no jobs. Any monkey can fly an airbus or a light turbo prop as companies like Jetstar have proven that is the case and experience is no longer relevant. People with 5,000hrs are queuing up to get a job with Jetstar but funny enough manage to have their applications rejected.

Name another industry to me where people pay about 100K for their education then have to work for free to get experience? Does this sound like to you that there is desperate oversupply or under-supply of pilots?

I'm out there actively looking at the job market and I can tell you it is pretty grim. I recently spoke to an operator up in Darwin operating turboprops over 5.7T and he was receiving three C.V's a day most of them meeting their company requirements.

When those license numbers drop to about half of what they are now then operators are going to find it tight to find pilots who meet their minimum requirements set out in their operations manual.

Oversupply
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Old 21st Sep 2011, 03:22
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Boeing's Oceania outlook forecasts 5.5 per cent annual growth in traffic over the next 20 years as the region establishes stronger connections with other Asia-Pacific nations and the world.
So Boeing are suggesting that in 2024 Oceania's aircraft traffic is going to be double what it is now....... Bollocks.

Dare I say impossible without rewriting the regs, improving ATC, building 2nd runways at MEL/BNE and new airports in PER/SYD.
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Old 21st Sep 2011, 03:26
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I'm trying to consider the historical perspective as to why pilot salaries were higher some years ago. Pilots flying mail routes in the US recieved up to $1500 per month in the 1920's (10 cents/mile); a fortune at the time. So what has changed?

Post WWI there was a glut of qualified and experienced pilots. Although various governments were attempting to develop air routes and there were still far more pilots than jobs. Aviation was a still a fairly dangerous persuit back then, even if the Germans weren't trying to kill you. Pilots still had to contend with weather and unreliable machinery. Was it the risk factor that led to high wages?

Ther situation was quite similar after the Second World War. There were many experienced and well trained multi-engine pilots with "international experience" available for the expanding airline industry. Were salaries high in relative terms? I understand that they weren't so flash. Perhaps there was an oversupply of pilots and higher paying jobs were attracting ex-aircrew into other industries. My understanding is that during the 1950's-60's efforts by the pilot's unions improved the T&Cs for their members. Under the prevailing industrial laws, pilots were able to use industrial muscle to improve their lot. Note that under US law during this period, airlines were able to sack staff who went on strike.

Airline de-regulation in the 1970's allowed a plethora of new start carriers in the USA. Many of these employed pilots at half the 'going' rate compared to the incumbant airlines (sounds familiar??). Competition with these new airlines provided the spur for American Airlines and United Air Lines to introduce the first "B scale" salary structures. With these, new pilots were given completely different conditions to those on the "historical contracts". This move was not just aimed at pilots, but to cabin crew and ground staff.

Dispite the dynamic state of the de-regulated environment of the the post 1970's and into the 80's, wide-body captains in the US companies were still able to recieve salaries of around $300,000. This compared with the renumeration offered in the regulated European industry. In Australia, the salaries on offer were not as high for domestic or international pilots, but was bloody good coin by community standards (still is) and comparable to that recieved by mid level legal people and medicos (not now).

The salaries recieved by US pilots who were not flying in the 'mainline' carriers was pretty abismal. These people were employed to operate commuter services for the larger carriers and employed many very experienced people form companies like Eastern who had gone out of business in the deregulated environment. The question arises: was the salaries for pilots who flew Convair 550s and the their replacement typs(Saabs etc. and later regional jets) of a similar low level prior to US de-regulation? Did the ready supply of experienced pilots who were unable to get comparable positions at incumbant airlines (due to seniority) cause an oversupply of talent in an expanding regional market and employers were able to capitalise on this? Is this a further example of datal seniority prohibiting an appropriate match between qualifications and experience with job availability?

While I don't profess to know all (or any!) of the answers, it is my hope that we can use this thread to actually go some where with how to improve our conditions. To this end, I hope that I am asking the right questions. Perhaps some one can fill in the blanks and we can all start to get a clearer picture of what has happend, the current state of play and what we can do in the future. The big question in my mind is does a link exist between market regulation and pilot salaries? If so, then what are the dynamics of the interaction between regulation, labour and salaries?I rather suspect that at the GA and commuter level, relative salaries haven't changed a whole lot over the decades. Anyway that you look at it, a wide body captain on $250K is making a fair stack of money. However, there is no doubt that our T&Cs have stagnated in comparison to the rest of the community.

Last edited by Anthill; 21st Sep 2011 at 03:38.
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