Jetstar legal action update
Aussie herb
YOU ARE WRONG.
DEC’s are a JPC matter and the JPC have killed it. If you talk to the 4 pilots who are negotiating with the company you would know that there is no talk of Tiger DEC’s in their meetings. These meetings have been about the flexi line employment and getting the cadets employed under the EBA. The reps are doing a bloody good job. Have a look at what they have achieved:
The flexi line deal gives a pilot a 3.6% pay rise over an existing full time pilot doing 75hrs per month or more.
The flexi line pilot only has to work 15 days per month.
The flexi line pilot gets 6 weeks annual leave paid at the full time rate.
The flexi line pilot gets a guaranteed 7 consecutive days off per month out of their 15 or 16 total days off.
The Jetstar pilots have right of veto to any changes to the flexi line policy.
The cadets don’t pay a cent back for their training.
The cadets get offered permanent employment in Australia under the EBA.
The cadets don’t have to qualify for an ATPL to get a pay rise to FO wages – under the EBA they could have been stuck on JFO rates for years while they got command time and all the requirements for an ATPL.
The cadets bond has been slashed from 6 years $84,000 to 3 years $36,000.
Again, talk to the pilot reps.
Jetstar have capitulated. They have gone running with their tails between their legs after the AFAP gave them a massive kick; the pilots have won. The Jetstar Group contract is DEAD. All recruitment is under the EBA. The federal court action was a masterstroke by the AFAP and is the sole reason that the pilot reps have been so successful. 4 months ago the Jetstar pilots were looking down the barrel of no more recruitment under the EBA – they would have been smashed come EBA negotiation time. Instead they have a decent part time policy and all pilots are to be employed under the EBA. They live to fight another day.
4 months ago Jetstar tried one of the biggest stunts to undermine the Jetstar pilots employment conditions. This could have spread industry wide and undermined all pilots employment conditions if Jetstar were successful. The AFAP put a stop to that in no uncertain terms – they went to a gun fight with a canon.
On the other hand you have the Chihuahua called AIPA. They have done absolutely nothing to try to stop the Jetstar Group Contract. All AIPA have done is bark up the wrong tree and criticise the AFAP’s strategy. They unilaterally dismissed the Jetstar subcommittee chairman (against the Jetstar pilots wishes) for sharing information with the AFAP pilots reps. The only reason the AIPA reps are in the room is because of the AFAP’s court case. Where is AIPAs’ industrial savvy and legal might when the Jetstar pilots were facing the biggest threat to their ongoing employment conditions? When are the Jetstar pilots going to hold AIPA to account for the moronic handling of Jetstar issues? When are AIPA going to actually win a court case on behalf of the Jetstar pilots?
I know who I would want on my side when Jetstar inevitably come at the pilots again bearing gifts of pineapples and cacti.
Hi Waren . Ask you jetstar pilot reps about DEC's . They are negotiating them right now with your company . With the support of the AFAP . I would love to be told how wrong I am .
YOU ARE WRONG.
DEC’s are a JPC matter and the JPC have killed it. If you talk to the 4 pilots who are negotiating with the company you would know that there is no talk of Tiger DEC’s in their meetings. These meetings have been about the flexi line employment and getting the cadets employed under the EBA. The reps are doing a bloody good job. Have a look at what they have achieved:The flexi line deal gives a pilot a 3.6% pay rise over an existing full time pilot doing 75hrs per month or more.
The flexi line pilot only has to work 15 days per month.
The flexi line pilot gets 6 weeks annual leave paid at the full time rate.
The flexi line pilot gets a guaranteed 7 consecutive days off per month out of their 15 or 16 total days off.
The Jetstar pilots have right of veto to any changes to the flexi line policy.
The cadets don’t pay a cent back for their training.
The cadets get offered permanent employment in Australia under the EBA.
The cadets don’t have to qualify for an ATPL to get a pay rise to FO wages – under the EBA they could have been stuck on JFO rates for years while they got command time and all the requirements for an ATPL.
The cadets bond has been slashed from 6 years $84,000 to 3 years $36,000.
Again, talk to the pilot reps.
Jetstar have capitulated. They have gone running with their tails between their legs after the AFAP gave them a massive kick; the pilots have won. The Jetstar Group contract is DEAD. All recruitment is under the EBA. The federal court action was a masterstroke by the AFAP and is the sole reason that the pilot reps have been so successful. 4 months ago the Jetstar pilots were looking down the barrel of no more recruitment under the EBA – they would have been smashed come EBA negotiation time. Instead they have a decent part time policy and all pilots are to be employed under the EBA. They live to fight another day.
4 months ago Jetstar tried one of the biggest stunts to undermine the Jetstar pilots employment conditions. This could have spread industry wide and undermined all pilots employment conditions if Jetstar were successful. The AFAP put a stop to that in no uncertain terms – they went to a gun fight with a canon.
On the other hand you have the Chihuahua called AIPA. They have done absolutely nothing to try to stop the Jetstar Group Contract. All AIPA have done is bark up the wrong tree and criticise the AFAP’s strategy. They unilaterally dismissed the Jetstar subcommittee chairman (against the Jetstar pilots wishes) for sharing information with the AFAP pilots reps. The only reason the AIPA reps are in the room is because of the AFAP’s court case. Where is AIPAs’ industrial savvy and legal might when the Jetstar pilots were facing the biggest threat to their ongoing employment conditions? When are the Jetstar pilots going to hold AIPA to account for the moronic handling of Jetstar issues? When are AIPA going to actually win a court case on behalf of the Jetstar pilots?
I know who I would want on my side when Jetstar inevitably come at the pilots again bearing gifts of pineapples and cacti.
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Keith,
You make some good points, however don't forget that the AFAP are the ones who are signatories to the disgraceful EBA that the JQ pilots work under.
If they had done a better job in the first place none of this stuff would have happened.
AIPA do have their issues but they have been taking it up to JQ management for a couple of years now, holding them to account at every opportunity, so to say they are not making life difficult for JQ management is tad out of touch.
You make some good points, however don't forget that the AFAP are the ones who are signatories to the disgraceful EBA that the JQ pilots work under.
If they had done a better job in the first place none of this stuff would have happened.
AIPA do have their issues but they have been taking it up to JQ management for a couple of years now, holding them to account at every opportunity, so to say they are not making life difficult for JQ management is tad out of touch.
So the cadets that signed up to 40,000 or so NZ dollars and paid for training with the intention of undercutting every single pilot in Australia, now get a job in Australia, on the EBA and get their training paid for?
Whilst those who didn't pay for the cadetship thinking, 'I'm going to do the right thing and not try and undercut everyone' gain nothing.
How can we possibly expect people to do the right thing and not accept dog**** T+C's when those who do always seem to end up better off because of the efforts of the current pilot fraternity (see part time 'group' contract before)?
Whilst those who didn't pay for the cadetship thinking, 'I'm going to do the right thing and not try and undercut everyone' gain nothing.
How can we possibly expect people to do the right thing and not accept dog**** T+C's when those who do always seem to end up better off because of the efforts of the current pilot fraternity (see part time 'group' contract before)?
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those who do always seem to end up better off because of the efforts of the current pilot fraternity
Not defending the cadets or their actions however.
Thread Starter
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Can i state that i am not here to debate the issues only posting newsletters to give those with an interest some background. Kelpie you mistake the fact that the Federation is industrial relations (IR) not public relations (PR) or spin, the documents are our newsletters and the work of the Jetstar Pilot reps.
Yes we did post a copy of a media release elsewhere that was to also clarify our role in the industrial agreement rather than another PR puff piece about involvement in actual negotiations.
so enough from me and this is the latest newsletter.
-----------------------------------------------------------
TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 1 September 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – Update on AFAP Application to the Federal Court
JUDGE EXTENDS ORDER FOR COMPANY TO STOP OFFERING INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS
We are pleased to advise that today (1 September 2011) Justice Marshall of the Federal Court signed the following consent orders:
“Upon the Respondent continuing its undertaking given to the Court on 10 June 2011 that it will not make any further offers of employment, before 4:30pm on Friday 28 October 2011, to either First Officers or Cadet Pilots under the contracts referred to in the Statement of Claim, the Court orders by consent that:
1. Orders 3 and 4 made on 21 July 2011 are set aside.
2. On or before 4.00 pm on Thursday, 22 September 2011, the Applicant file and serve any reply.
3. A further directions hearing be listed at 9.00am on Friday 28 October 2011.
4. There be liberty for both parties to apply on reasonable notice.
5. Costs reserved.”
The practical effect of the above orders is the continuation of the prohibition on the company from offering further Jetstar Group contracts to First Officers and Cadets while the matter is determined (or resolved).
While our legal case against the Jetstar Group Pty Limited contracts continues (the next hearing is scheduled for 28 September 2011) we have been meeting extensively with the company. The aim of these discussions has been to ensure the employment of all Australian based Jetstar pilots by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under your EBA.
We continue to make progress towards our aim. Within the last week or so we have ensured that every F/O and Cadet currently operating within the Australian Jetstar network is offered employment by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited and thereby entitled to the protections of your EBA. We will keep you updated of developments.
If you have any questions regarding this matter please let your AFAP Jetstar Base Rep know, ask any of the AFAP Jetstar Council members or contact Simon Lutton ([email protected]).
Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council
Yes we did post a copy of a media release elsewhere that was to also clarify our role in the industrial agreement rather than another PR puff piece about involvement in actual negotiations.
so enough from me and this is the latest newsletter.
-----------------------------------------------------------
TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 1 September 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – Update on AFAP Application to the Federal Court
JUDGE EXTENDS ORDER FOR COMPANY TO STOP OFFERING INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS
We are pleased to advise that today (1 September 2011) Justice Marshall of the Federal Court signed the following consent orders:
“Upon the Respondent continuing its undertaking given to the Court on 10 June 2011 that it will not make any further offers of employment, before 4:30pm on Friday 28 October 2011, to either First Officers or Cadet Pilots under the contracts referred to in the Statement of Claim, the Court orders by consent that:
1. Orders 3 and 4 made on 21 July 2011 are set aside.
2. On or before 4.00 pm on Thursday, 22 September 2011, the Applicant file and serve any reply.
3. A further directions hearing be listed at 9.00am on Friday 28 October 2011.
4. There be liberty for both parties to apply on reasonable notice.
5. Costs reserved.”
The practical effect of the above orders is the continuation of the prohibition on the company from offering further Jetstar Group contracts to First Officers and Cadets while the matter is determined (or resolved).
While our legal case against the Jetstar Group Pty Limited contracts continues (the next hearing is scheduled for 28 September 2011) we have been meeting extensively with the company. The aim of these discussions has been to ensure the employment of all Australian based Jetstar pilots by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under your EBA.
We continue to make progress towards our aim. Within the last week or so we have ensured that every F/O and Cadet currently operating within the Australian Jetstar network is offered employment by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited and thereby entitled to the protections of your EBA. We will keep you updated of developments.
If you have any questions regarding this matter please let your AFAP Jetstar Base Rep know, ask any of the AFAP Jetstar Council members or contact Simon Lutton ([email protected]).
Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council
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Personally if I were to fly with these guys, it would be a very quiet and awkward cockpit
Fuel-Off
Originally Posted by waren9
Fact of life for any pilot joining an established EBA. Hard yards/negotiation already done by your predecessors. Circle of life.
Not defending the cadets or their actions however
Not defending the cadets or their actions however
They agreed to undercut and offshore the jobs of the pilots on that EBA. These are selfish people who only thought about themselves, at the expense of every other pilot and prospective pilot in Australia who wanted to be able to live in the country they love and do the job they love.
After all this, the only 'punishment' they get is a jet job, with a guaranteed pay rise after 2 years to the same rate as someone who has slogged it out in GA and gotten 2-3000 hours of real experience. Plus free training from whatever level they were (so CPL/MECIR from ab initio).
It's a disgrace.
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They agreed to undercut and offshore the jobs of the pilots on that EBA. These are selfish people who only thought about themselves
Good point.
Difference is Jetstar pilots still have to put up with the disgraceful EBA they signed up to. That's their punishment.
The equivalent would be if the pilots who agreed to undercut Qantas by joining Jetstar when the whole thing started, were given Qantas T+C's.
It's rewarding bad behavior ffs.
Difference is Jetstar pilots still have to put up with the disgraceful EBA they signed up to. That's their punishment.
The equivalent would be if the pilots who agreed to undercut Qantas by joining Jetstar when the whole thing started, were given Qantas T+C's.
It's rewarding bad behavior ffs.
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We will see Keith . The advice I have is that it is still the companies discretion to employ DEC's . As for you view on the IR landscape , let's just say our views are not alligned . Copying in AFAP is one thing . Copying in the company is another . Having a hissy fit and resigning from Aipa is slightly different from being dismissed . Be careful of worshipping false idols . Hate to see the Jetstar guys being used as pawns anymore than they already have been . Where do the 330 guys go when the 787's ( if they ever come ) are based somewhere in Asia ? QF 330's start returning to those that have been paying for them in 2012 , next year . What's the AFAP's plan for that one . AIPA has one and is fighting it at the highest level .
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Thanks for the reply Lawrie.
FYI i am aware of the difference between IR and PR.
You still have not answered my question about overseas pilots undertaking line training on the aussie line whilst paid under their ts and cs away from the EBA.
Can you confirm this practice has been adequately dealt with in your discussions.
Thank You
The Kelpie
FYI i am aware of the difference between IR and PR.
You still have not answered my question about overseas pilots undertaking line training on the aussie line whilst paid under their ts and cs away from the EBA.
Can you confirm this practice has been adequately dealt with in your discussions.
Thank You
The Kelpie
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Lawrie Cox ,
Well done , you have always been fair dinkum a genuine trade unionist who always has the best interests of members at heart . Unlike some "Johnny come lately"chaps who pose as union people that we have today. Good result, you will live to fight another day
Well done , you have always been fair dinkum a genuine trade unionist who always has the best interests of members at heart . Unlike some "Johnny come lately"chaps who pose as union people that we have today. Good result, you will live to fight another day
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The company has streamlined the operation by putting all on EBA.
When the EBA expires look for a loss of T & Cs in one go.
They now have unlimited qualified including QF pilots on the books who will work for way less to either:
1 Live in Australia
2 Have a job as opposed to unemployment.
Enjoy the next 2 Years boys.....
When the EBA expires look for a loss of T & Cs in one go.
They now have unlimited qualified including QF pilots on the books who will work for way less to either:
1 Live in Australia
2 Have a job as opposed to unemployment.
Enjoy the next 2 Years boys.....
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I'm quite happy that the Jetstar cadets are on the EBA....
There has been some well publicised concerns that because the cadets (over the 6? year period) were cheaper than direct entry FO's, that Jetstar would be focusing their recruitment on these kids (to save money). Now that these cadets are on the same EBA and have had their bond reduced I would imagine that the financial attraction of cadets vs. direct entry FO's would not be as great for Jetstar...
Continuing my imagination....one might assume that because the cadets are now much more expensive for Jetstar that they might start to focus more on direct entry FO's again???
More than happy for others' opinions on this 'assumption'...
Eternity.
There has been some well publicised concerns that because the cadets (over the 6? year period) were cheaper than direct entry FO's, that Jetstar would be focusing their recruitment on these kids (to save money). Now that these cadets are on the same EBA and have had their bond reduced I would imagine that the financial attraction of cadets vs. direct entry FO's would not be as great for Jetstar...
Continuing my imagination....one might assume that because the cadets are now much more expensive for Jetstar that they might start to focus more on direct entry FO's again???
More than happy for others' opinions on this 'assumption'...
Eternity.
Last edited by eternity; 7th Sep 2011 at 14:41. Reason: booze
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So quick to condem
This has certainly been an interesting read from the point of view of an upcoming cadet.
You all seem to forget one simple truth - cadets are people as well. They are simply trying to make the most out of the situation they are in.
In my case, I'm training at the moment. I'm going to spend around 14 months training, during that time earning the bare minimum to survive as a student. I have a wife and two children.
Once I'm done with my training I have very limited options:
1. Go into GA. Get some relevant experience for airline flying and be paid $30k a year (if I'm lucky to get paid at all)
2. Get into a cadet program. Get experience that is 100% relevant for airline flying and get paid $60k a year (minus of course paying back my type/line ratings).
So now I'm a scab simply because I'm going to take the option that gives the best benefit for me and my family. Like any of you existing pilots would have done ANYTHING different if you were in the same position when you started your careers.
Cadet programs are less than perfect. We all know this, every one of us in our course knows that overall cadet programs are going to result in the pay rates for pilots going down. But there are no other better/more reasonable options available. There is such a massive gap between those two options it isn't funny. What reasonable person would ask someone to take half the pay and half the experience just so that they can continue.
Its the jobs of the unions and the industry to detirmine pay rates etc etc.
Its the jobs of cadets and PEOPLE to do whats best for themselves. Dont blame us because JQ is offering a cadet program that is the best option for any pilot wanting to get into airlines.
You all seem to forget one simple truth - cadets are people as well. They are simply trying to make the most out of the situation they are in.
In my case, I'm training at the moment. I'm going to spend around 14 months training, during that time earning the bare minimum to survive as a student. I have a wife and two children.
Once I'm done with my training I have very limited options:
1. Go into GA. Get some relevant experience for airline flying and be paid $30k a year (if I'm lucky to get paid at all)
2. Get into a cadet program. Get experience that is 100% relevant for airline flying and get paid $60k a year (minus of course paying back my type/line ratings).
So now I'm a scab simply because I'm going to take the option that gives the best benefit for me and my family. Like any of you existing pilots would have done ANYTHING different if you were in the same position when you started your careers.
Cadet programs are less than perfect. We all know this, every one of us in our course knows that overall cadet programs are going to result in the pay rates for pilots going down. But there are no other better/more reasonable options available. There is such a massive gap between those two options it isn't funny. What reasonable person would ask someone to take half the pay and half the experience just so that they can continue.
Its the jobs of the unions and the industry to detirmine pay rates etc etc.
Its the jobs of cadets and PEOPLE to do whats best for themselves. Dont blame us because JQ is offering a cadet program that is the best option for any pilot wanting to get into airlines.
So now I'm a scab simply because I'm going to take the option that gives the best benefit for me and my family. Like any of you existing pilots would have done ANYTHING different if you were in the same position when you started your careers.
They didn't have shiny jet syndrome. Things don't always come easy, on a platter, sometimes you have to work for them.
So now I'm a scab simply because I'm going to take the option that gives the best benefit for me and my family
Quick to condemn I think not. Good luck sport.
PhoenixNZ
You'll understand one day.
It will probably be when guys like yourself are offering to do it for 40k instead of 60k using your same rational.
It may be when you're in the left seat and have to fly with these guys.
Yes, they know their theory and SOPs very well. No one I know has ever had issue with this. It's knowing when to apply this theory and use of SOPs which is the problem.
It's the lack of airmanship, the lack of piloting experience. It's all the small things which add up. Taxi lights on facing another aircraft at night. Strobes on entering a runway While another aircraft is in a flare passing. Blindly flying into a thunderstorm because ATC has not cleared left or right track miles. Reading the conditions, the way the air feels, the way it looks. That feeling deep down when you know something is not as it should be yet there is no indication to confirm it.
It's like comparing something made by a machine vs something handmade. A cadet is churned out by a machine, a traditional military/GA Pilot is hand crafted through operational experience. A pilot is a craftsman, and it takes years being handmade to call yourself one.
Is not something you can throw money at to attain. It's something you slowly become.
Once you are sitting in that airliner, you'll understand it. I promise you it will be all the more worthwhile.
You'll understand one day.
It will probably be when guys like yourself are offering to do it for 40k instead of 60k using your same rational.
It may be when you're in the left seat and have to fly with these guys.
Yes, they know their theory and SOPs very well. No one I know has ever had issue with this. It's knowing when to apply this theory and use of SOPs which is the problem.
It's the lack of airmanship, the lack of piloting experience. It's all the small things which add up. Taxi lights on facing another aircraft at night. Strobes on entering a runway While another aircraft is in a flare passing. Blindly flying into a thunderstorm because ATC has not cleared left or right track miles. Reading the conditions, the way the air feels, the way it looks. That feeling deep down when you know something is not as it should be yet there is no indication to confirm it.
It's like comparing something made by a machine vs something handmade. A cadet is churned out by a machine, a traditional military/GA Pilot is hand crafted through operational experience. A pilot is a craftsman, and it takes years being handmade to call yourself one.
Is not something you can throw money at to attain. It's something you slowly become.
Once you are sitting in that airliner, you'll understand it. I promise you it will be all the more worthwhile.
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PhoenixNZ
One serious gap in your knowledge they won’t teach you at Raybans and Epaulettes flight school.
Unions and industry ARE people and cadets.
To bastardise someone else's phrase, "Its not what can my union do for me, its what can I do for my..."
And to a few others out there: get out your dictionaries and learn the correct meaning of scab. Thank you.
Its the jobs of the unions and the industry to determine pay rates etc etc.
Its the jobs of cadets and PEOPLE to do what’s best for themselves. Dont blame us because JQ is offering a cadet program that is the best option for any pilot wanting to get into airlines.
Its the jobs of cadets and PEOPLE to do what’s best for themselves. Dont blame us because JQ is offering a cadet program that is the best option for any pilot wanting to get into airlines.
Unions and industry ARE people and cadets.
To bastardise someone else's phrase, "Its not what can my union do for me, its what can I do for my..."
And to a few others out there: get out your dictionaries and learn the correct meaning of scab. Thank you.