Virgin Australia Long Haul International EBA is up!!
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It's only a matter of time before VA start parking 777's and discover how important SO's are. The plane won't depart without them, despite the never ending list of primary crew volunteers who love bragging about have much cash they are making from draft days and overtime. Special bunch, talk about choosing your audience.
Always got me buggered why guys do the company a huge favour to get a flight away and work days off whilst getting reamed on a 2011 expired EBA. Talk about losing sight of the big picture for short term personal gain. Just in case anyone is wondering why the company didn't want to release their remuneration package to the troops, rumour has it the offer is 1.5% 2.0% 2.5% They will need to move that decimal point to the right one spot and reverse those percentages to stop a mass exodus from the SO ranks.
Most SO's are now previous regional captains or jet guys and mostly tertiary educated. They are far more qualified and experienced than the first bunch and will be in demand. SO's are already beginning to leave with many more about to go and this is before QF has even commenced hiring off the street. Can already picture the mad rush to try and find 457 recruits.
When was the last time a 777 was parked up against the fence due to lack of crew? Interesting times...
Always got me buggered why guys do the company a huge favour to get a flight away and work days off whilst getting reamed on a 2011 expired EBA. Talk about losing sight of the big picture for short term personal gain. Just in case anyone is wondering why the company didn't want to release their remuneration package to the troops, rumour has it the offer is 1.5% 2.0% 2.5% They will need to move that decimal point to the right one spot and reverse those percentages to stop a mass exodus from the SO ranks.
Most SO's are now previous regional captains or jet guys and mostly tertiary educated. They are far more qualified and experienced than the first bunch and will be in demand. SO's are already beginning to leave with many more about to go and this is before QF has even commenced hiring off the street. Can already picture the mad rush to try and find 457 recruits.
When was the last time a 777 was parked up against the fence due to lack of crew? Interesting times...
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While I agree that the VAI SO's are underpaid compared to other airlines, from what I'm reading here the QF long haul guys have thrown the unborn 787 SO's under the bus, looks like they will have a base around 105K. I think that will be similiar money to what VAI SO's will get under the new EBA.
Obviously the QF option becomes much more lucrative once you get on other fleets and ranks, but how many years will that take?
Obviously the QF option becomes much more lucrative once you get on other fleets and ranks, but how many years will that take?
While I agree that the VAI SO's are underpaid compared to other airlines, from what I'm reading here the QF long haul guys have thrown the unborn 787 SO's under the bus, looks like they will have a base around 105K. I think that will be similiar money to what VAI SO's will get under the new EBA.
Obviously the QF option becomes much more lucrative once you get on other fleets and ranks, but how many years will that take?
Obviously the QF option becomes much more lucrative once you get on other fleets and ranks, but how many years will that take?
Compared to someone who joins as an SO on the A330, the 787 SO will earn about $15,000 more base pay in year one. The cross over point is around the 3+ year point where the cumulative pay of the A330 overtakes the 787 SO. However, what that different pay scale helped pay for was the ability to be able to bid to other aircraft types as a SO. That is, a 787 SO can bid to be a SO on the A330, 747 or A380. This option was not available to SOs prior to the current EBA, where, generally, the only way to move was to take a promotion. This resulted in the so called 'day one lottery' where some recruits went to the A380 or 747 and made significantly more money than someone who was assigned to the A330. The new system incurs a greater training cost for the company as all new recruits will be assigned to the 787 and SO positions on other types will be advertised and awarded to current pilots.
This is not 'throwing the unborn 787 drivers under the bus', it is actually giving all new recruits the same starting point rather than 'day one lottery'. It also gives them an opportunity to be a SO on an existing fleet on existing conditions if they choose to - no B scale.
Last edited by theheadmaster; 3rd Oct 2016 at 12:42.
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Quoted by DUXNUTZ
Overseas carriers that accept S/O time. When you find that out, you have the answer.
By the way, there's more than one carrier.
S/O's leaving in droves??? From what I've heard of the VAA company culture (towards S/O's) I can't blame them but where are they going?
By the way, there's more than one carrier.
Those that think VA will be parking 777s due lack of crew need their head read. Plenty of GA folk who would jump at the chance....
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Gravy train - "refers to a situation in which someone can make a lot of money for very little effort"
While I agree with the very little effort part to discribe that position being paid less than 72k is a complete discrace for a experienced pilot in 2016. Promotion for a new SO will be glacial getting to a domestic jet so why anyone with enough experience to apply for TT or JQ would even look at this option I'd never know. It will be filled with 500-1000 hr pilots like it was back at startup.
It's not just SO starting to walk out the door, it is happening across all ranks in that fleet.
DUXNUTZ I don't know of one SO going to EK. They are off to much better jobs than that one much closer to home!
While I agree with the very little effort part to discribe that position being paid less than 72k is a complete discrace for a experienced pilot in 2016. Promotion for a new SO will be glacial getting to a domestic jet so why anyone with enough experience to apply for TT or JQ would even look at this option I'd never know. It will be filled with 500-1000 hr pilots like it was back at startup.
It's not just SO starting to walk out the door, it is happening across all ranks in that fleet.
DUXNUTZ I don't know of one SO going to EK. They are off to much better jobs than that one much closer to home!
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Atlas, I have my issues with the management and the way they treat pilots and staff generally, but if you are so unhappy why stick around?
And now we are watching it being destroyed by incompetence and nobody is doing anything about it.
This place was once, and still has the potential to be, a great place to work, so he's probably sticking around in the hope that there will be a change of management. Soon........
If you've been at VA for more than 5 mins (couple years) you have a right to voice your opinion. This cat Atlas; was only complaining a short time ago about being on the hold file..... So by all accounts he's suddenly an expert on everything Virgin? Nope.
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Just because atlas12 may have been at Virgin for a short time DUXNUTZ does not mean he/she is wrong and does not have the right to an opinion, maybe you remember the good old VB days DUXNUTZ when you got a command in 5 mins ( couple years ) the new troops are not happy and have a say as well. This EBA vote may just prove that.
Just because atlas12 may have been at Virgin for a short time DUXNUTZ does not mean he/she is wrong and does not have the right to an opinion, maybe you remember the good old VB days DUXNUTZ when you got a command in 5 mins ( couple years ) the new troops are not happy and have a say as well. This EBA vote may just prove that.
Atlas, two years in this joint actually doesn't qualify you to whinge. You are barely checked to line. Many of us here have been here for a lot longer.
Many of us who have been here a lot longer are more passionate about the airline than you appear to be, are deeply concerned about the future of the company and the way it treats its people BUT at the end of the day it is still a good job. Could it be better? Absolutely, could it be worse? Absolutely- look at Jetstar, they get treated a bucket load worse than we do as far as I can tell, so I guess it is a matter of perspective.
Perhaps it is the difficulty of discerning intent and tone from the written word, but you sound like you hate the joint, and if that is the case then it only causes you, the people around you and the business grief if you stay, you are better off going elsewhere.
If it is a matter of you just have the ****s with a few things, then join the club! There is no doubt that the place is in a very difficult position as a result of decisions made by people who are or were in senior management positions.
The better solution, rather than bagging the joint out here on pprune is to get involved with your Union, my recommendation is the AFAP, but either way, channel your concern in a positive manner and do something about it.
As for being on the hold file for ages with no contact, that is unfortunate but I do know that this was not the intent of the flight ops people, rather just the way it panned out. As far as I can tell QF had people on their hold file for ages also, but at the end just wiped them and said start again.
Many of us who have been here a lot longer are more passionate about the airline than you appear to be, are deeply concerned about the future of the company and the way it treats its people BUT at the end of the day it is still a good job. Could it be better? Absolutely, could it be worse? Absolutely- look at Jetstar, they get treated a bucket load worse than we do as far as I can tell, so I guess it is a matter of perspective.
Perhaps it is the difficulty of discerning intent and tone from the written word, but you sound like you hate the joint, and if that is the case then it only causes you, the people around you and the business grief if you stay, you are better off going elsewhere.
If it is a matter of you just have the ****s with a few things, then join the club! There is no doubt that the place is in a very difficult position as a result of decisions made by people who are or were in senior management positions.
The better solution, rather than bagging the joint out here on pprune is to get involved with your Union, my recommendation is the AFAP, but either way, channel your concern in a positive manner and do something about it.
As for being on the hold file for ages with no contact, that is unfortunate but I do know that this was not the intent of the flight ops people, rather just the way it panned out. As far as I can tell QF had people on their hold file for ages also, but at the end just wiped them and said start again.
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Well Snakecharma, let's just say that my reasons for being annoyed with the company are very justified but I am not at liberty to discuss them here. I don't "bag the joint out", in fact I have said several times that the flying is great and I actually really enjoy it. My issues are at a management level. Trust me when I say that we are on the same page, if we sat down for a beer or two you'd understand.
So we now look to Jetstar as a comparison? Oh my.
Ooook then, (some points don't apply if you won the pre GFC lottery).
1. 787's. (Mate they look crap don't they? **** destinations also..)
2. FO's only for FO wide-body slots.
3. Business class staff or duty travel.
4. Staff travel on EK and QF long haul business about half the price of EY and VA.
5. QF group now looking at progression into mainline (based on performance by the looks of it).
6. QF group profits = not wondering if the job will be there tomorrow.
7. Previously offers of LWOP and the ability to try contracts elsewhere.
8. Career options in multiple countries with JQ subsidiaries.
Just a few minor points regarding the Low Cost Carrier Jetstar.
Have a look at the Virgin Blue Hiring page (in the GA forum) if you can find it. Nobody posts on it, zero interest. Not even from blokes in GA (yoohoo anybody home??!!).
Don't think atlas is the problem somehow, but better we hush him down. Shhhh.
Anyway it's a job not a holiday. As long as the wage goes in the bank...
Takes a while to get your head around it being a job and not a career. Atlas, enjoy the Jet, smell the roses best you can, chin up as life is short buddy.
Ooook then, (some points don't apply if you won the pre GFC lottery).
1. 787's. (Mate they look crap don't they? **** destinations also..)
2. FO's only for FO wide-body slots.
3. Business class staff or duty travel.
4. Staff travel on EK and QF long haul business about half the price of EY and VA.
5. QF group now looking at progression into mainline (based on performance by the looks of it).
6. QF group profits = not wondering if the job will be there tomorrow.
7. Previously offers of LWOP and the ability to try contracts elsewhere.
8. Career options in multiple countries with JQ subsidiaries.
Just a few minor points regarding the Low Cost Carrier Jetstar.
Have a look at the Virgin Blue Hiring page (in the GA forum) if you can find it. Nobody posts on it, zero interest. Not even from blokes in GA (yoohoo anybody home??!!).
Don't think atlas is the problem somehow, but better we hush him down. Shhhh.
Anyway it's a job not a holiday. As long as the wage goes in the bank...
Takes a while to get your head around it being a job and not a career. Atlas, enjoy the Jet, smell the roses best you can, chin up as life is short buddy.
Last edited by Berealgetreal; 5th Oct 2016 at 10:01.
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Atlas
From the perspective of someone who has been in the industry for a lifetime, and all I want is for Virgin to last till I retire, becuase I really don't want to have to do another job interview, I absolutely respect your right to comment regardless of how long you have been here. Like any issue anywhere in the world, a fresh view can often have a major impact, although probably not at Virgin.
My advice to you is not to be too committed to Virgin. You are right, it is a company with potential being run by idiots who are seem to be driven by ego rather than objective assessment of the industry. (Why are we the only airline in the world that doesn't know how to make money from a 777?).
I'm assuming your are young(ish), but that is not really relevant. After two years at Virgin you don't really have that much invested here, so go wherever your personal future is best served. Staying at Virgin in the blind hope that things might get better is not a plan. Sure it might work out that way, but there are no signs of it yet. But if you're happy to stay on the hamster wheel, then I have no problem with that either. Certainly if you stay and it works out, then you will have the comfort of sticking to your guns and standing by your convictions. Aviation is unforgiving, however. No matter how many single engine taxi's you do, if the airline ever goes through a reduction in numbers, you will be just that, a number.
I've been extremely lucky in my aviation career and I could look back and say that I took calculated risks, I moved to where things where happening, I progressed and achieved my goals. The reality is, however, that I had no idea what I was doing, I made some lucky choices and it worked out.
All the guys at the top of the tree at Virgin are just the same. They joined a rock show that had no chance of surviving. If it wasn't for the collapse of Ansett, Virgin Blue would just be a smudge mark in the history of Australian aviation, right alongside Compass 1 and 2. Some of those guys now think they are the smartest guys in the room because they have low seniority numbers. They are not. Many of them are the guys that couldn't buy a job, but now are swinging dicks in an ordinary airline. I will also say, many of those guys are fabulous aviators and would have probably succeeded in the industry irrespective of Virgin Blue's fortunes. The point is though, it was all just luck, there was no cunning plan or grand vision.
Don't wait for Borghetti and friends to build your career. Tread your own path. If that's Virgin, then I wish you a long and prosperous career. If it's elsewhere, then good luck with that too. Just remember, nothing you do in your day to day job is going to impact the fortunes of Virgin Australia. All that will be decided in boardrooms here, in China and the Middle East.
From the perspective of someone who has been in the industry for a lifetime, and all I want is for Virgin to last till I retire, becuase I really don't want to have to do another job interview, I absolutely respect your right to comment regardless of how long you have been here. Like any issue anywhere in the world, a fresh view can often have a major impact, although probably not at Virgin.
My advice to you is not to be too committed to Virgin. You are right, it is a company with potential being run by idiots who are seem to be driven by ego rather than objective assessment of the industry. (Why are we the only airline in the world that doesn't know how to make money from a 777?).
I'm assuming your are young(ish), but that is not really relevant. After two years at Virgin you don't really have that much invested here, so go wherever your personal future is best served. Staying at Virgin in the blind hope that things might get better is not a plan. Sure it might work out that way, but there are no signs of it yet. But if you're happy to stay on the hamster wheel, then I have no problem with that either. Certainly if you stay and it works out, then you will have the comfort of sticking to your guns and standing by your convictions. Aviation is unforgiving, however. No matter how many single engine taxi's you do, if the airline ever goes through a reduction in numbers, you will be just that, a number.
I've been extremely lucky in my aviation career and I could look back and say that I took calculated risks, I moved to where things where happening, I progressed and achieved my goals. The reality is, however, that I had no idea what I was doing, I made some lucky choices and it worked out.
All the guys at the top of the tree at Virgin are just the same. They joined a rock show that had no chance of surviving. If it wasn't for the collapse of Ansett, Virgin Blue would just be a smudge mark in the history of Australian aviation, right alongside Compass 1 and 2. Some of those guys now think they are the smartest guys in the room because they have low seniority numbers. They are not. Many of them are the guys that couldn't buy a job, but now are swinging dicks in an ordinary airline. I will also say, many of those guys are fabulous aviators and would have probably succeeded in the industry irrespective of Virgin Blue's fortunes. The point is though, it was all just luck, there was no cunning plan or grand vision.
Don't wait for Borghetti and friends to build your career. Tread your own path. If that's Virgin, then I wish you a long and prosperous career. If it's elsewhere, then good luck with that too. Just remember, nothing you do in your day to day job is going to impact the fortunes of Virgin Australia. All that will be decided in boardrooms here, in China and the Middle East.