Fallacy or Fact - Qantas International losses
As I understand it, Jetstar lease the A330's from Qantas but Qantas retains the freight capacity/availability. For this, Qantas pay a fixed lease fee to Jetstar for the freight capacity whether a single item of freight is carried or not and regardless of whether or not Jetstar is using the A330 on a route that ever even carries freight.
Qantas then charge Qantas freight only for the actual freight carried.
I was once told the lease fee paid by Qantas to Jetstar for this freight capacity was so generous that it could never be recouped no matter how much freight was carried.
It was even suggested that Jetstar could operate the A330 to Japan with not a single passenger and still make a profit due to the freight charge to Qantas. I find that just a little too hard to believe though not beyond possibility.
Qantas then charge Qantas freight only for the actual freight carried.
I was once told the lease fee paid by Qantas to Jetstar for this freight capacity was so generous that it could never be recouped no matter how much freight was carried.
It was even suggested that Jetstar could operate the A330 to Japan with not a single passenger and still make a profit due to the freight charge to Qantas. I find that just a little too hard to believe though not beyond possibility.
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bazza,
Over a decade I think Dixon would have been some distance behind the highest paid airline CEO - check Delta for a start, I'm not defending his pay though it was bordering on criminal.
Why 'some' captains? If you're going to do a comparison surely it is average that matters and from the airlines perspectiver per hour flown. I am confident JQ are well behind their QF counterparts.
I don't believe I have ever claimed pilots and engineers are 'the entire and total cause of any woes'. Actually I think it is only part of the problem. End of line carrier, competitors such as Emirates who can hire and fire at will, recruit globally and whose employees don't pay tax, Australian labour costs being generally higher than abroad particularly with current exchange rates, foreign airlines run for motives other than return to shareholders. There is a fairly long list of issues that makes operating certain international routes from Australia fairly unattractive.
Qan Shareholder, do you agree the highest paid airline CEO of the last decade made the correct choices with regard to the fleet?
Can you tell me how much money some JQ330 Captains were paid in the last 12 months compared to QF ones? Also, some JQ 320 captains were paid a hell of a lot more than some 737 Captains.
Yet you hang onto the notion that us and the engineers are the entire and total cause of any woes QF faces. In your opinion, if we are the only problems, can you not see why things have reached the point where they are now?
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First Point
What about the direct competition between 2 companies within the same group?
From the Jetstar website as of 27 July 2011.(Under Facts & Stats - My bolding).
“The Jetstar Group is part of the Qantas Group’s two-brand growth strategy, which sees Qantas focus on the premium and business market and Jetstar focusing on leisure travel markets.”
Then, further down: "Jetstar customers only pay for what they need. Customers can choose between two types of fares – Economy or Business (on selected international flights)"
Second point.
What about the intangible cost of not concentrating on overall growth of the Qantas Group, whilst focusing on the Jetstar “growth” and “opportunities”? Total revenues for Qantas now down to 2006 levels…
What about the direct competition between 2 companies within the same group?
From the Jetstar website as of 27 July 2011.(Under Facts & Stats - My bolding).
“The Jetstar Group is part of the Qantas Group’s two-brand growth strategy, which sees Qantas focus on the premium and business market and Jetstar focusing on leisure travel markets.”
Then, further down: "Jetstar customers only pay for what they need. Customers can choose between two types of fares – Economy or Business (on selected international flights)"
Second point.
What about the intangible cost of not concentrating on overall growth of the Qantas Group, whilst focusing on the Jetstar “growth” and “opportunities”? Total revenues for Qantas now down to 2006 levels…
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The place God would go for a holiday!
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ground equipment fuel
Fedsec
Every day at Terminal two in SYD a Qantas dieselfuel truck uns around filling up JQ ground eqipment. Never have I seen the bowser operator take down equipment numbers or litres dispensed. Unless the bowser operator writes down a total fuel figure for the entire terminal euipment (who owns the equipment??) I do not think the fuel is accounted for.
Another is the QF aircraft tooling being 'sold' or 'transferred' to JQ. Remember last PIA when it was declared that aircraft tooling belongs to Qantas NOT Qantas Engineering
E
Every day at Terminal two in SYD a Qantas dieselfuel truck uns around filling up JQ ground eqipment. Never have I seen the bowser operator take down equipment numbers or litres dispensed. Unless the bowser operator writes down a total fuel figure for the entire terminal euipment (who owns the equipment??) I do not think the fuel is accounted for.
Another is the QF aircraft tooling being 'sold' or 'transferred' to JQ. Remember last PIA when it was declared that aircraft tooling belongs to Qantas NOT Qantas Engineering
E
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
-What are J* charged for using QF aerobridges?
-When QF lames sent for training on A320, who picks up the bill for their accom, expenses etc - Qf or J*?
-The practice of QF employees changing into J* uniform for J* transit still happening. Do J* get charged for this use of QF employees? Who is paying for their J* uniforms, and the drycleaning of these uniforms?
-Do J* pay for their check-in kiosks and their upkeep within QF airport areas?
-Do J* actually pay a fee for using QF baggage system - ie. that gets the bag from check-in to the baggage container - at airports where they piggyback off QF infrastructure?
-Who picked up the tab for getting the J* Vietnam execs out of jail and back to Oz?
-When QF lames sent for training on A320, who picks up the bill for their accom, expenses etc - Qf or J*?
-The practice of QF employees changing into J* uniform for J* transit still happening. Do J* get charged for this use of QF employees? Who is paying for their J* uniforms, and the drycleaning of these uniforms?
-Do J* pay for their check-in kiosks and their upkeep within QF airport areas?
-Do J* actually pay a fee for using QF baggage system - ie. that gets the bag from check-in to the baggage container - at airports where they piggyback off QF infrastructure?
-Who picked up the tab for getting the J* Vietnam execs out of jail and back to Oz?
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The place God would go for a holiday!
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crusty Demon
Crusty Demon, can you expand on the new renumeration laws? Mu understanding was that shareholders can vote on renumeration requirements, but companies are not obliged to act on shareholder opinion
E
E
AFAIK Jetstar doesn't own any tugs at Sydney International or any other International terminal. How much does QF charge for tug services?
And I bet if there's an accident with Mrs. Palmer, they send the dry cleaning bill to Qantas International.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sunny QLD
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What rules prevent us from discussing amongst our peers the sham that is qf/Jetstar accounting?
Nunc est bibendum
Eject, it was a discussion relating to the alleged financial performance of QF vs J* that led to the situation discussed in this thread. I think Crusty's point is to be careful who you discuss these things with as some are obviously feeling the pressure of having crew laugh in their faces when they try to spin the propaganda.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
REF: "Lateline ABC TV 27/7/11" - story about Jet* exposing lack of T&C's for Thai F/A's and general lack of overall duty limits for cabin crew incl. Oz based.
One of Jet*'s written responses was that they "had invested heavily in fatigue management systems".
Recently in EP's, the QF facilitator, whilst explaining how the newly introduced QF Fatigue Management System operates, clearly stated that neither Jet* or VB have this type of system in place and that it will be a CASA requirement.
QN: "How much have JQ contributed towards the development of QF fatigue management system or have they developed their own system and if so what stage of development is it at?"
Good luck
One of Jet*'s written responses was that they "had invested heavily in fatigue management systems".
Recently in EP's, the QF facilitator, whilst explaining how the newly introduced QF Fatigue Management System operates, clearly stated that neither Jet* or VB have this type of system in place and that it will be a CASA requirement.
QN: "How much have JQ contributed towards the development of QF fatigue management system or have they developed their own system and if so what stage of development is it at?"
Good luck
Who pays regulatory affairs bills and airservices charges?
Given that QF tech did a huge amount of work on RNP approaches (RNP-AR) how much did QF charge J* for that package. No doubt J* did all the leg work on Low Vis requirements (approvals, manuals etc) and ETOPS as well.
Also hear that Athens and Rome have just turned back up as mains for QF flights to Europe. I wonder who wears the bill for re-approval of such seeing as though it will be J* who is using them.
Speaking of managers. Who paid the wages of the QF guys who have gone to Jet connect and Jetstar pacific?
Who paid for the training of all the Jetconnect crews on the 737NG? Was it Jetconnect or QF?
Given that QF tech did a huge amount of work on RNP approaches (RNP-AR) how much did QF charge J* for that package. No doubt J* did all the leg work on Low Vis requirements (approvals, manuals etc) and ETOPS as well.
Also hear that Athens and Rome have just turned back up as mains for QF flights to Europe. I wonder who wears the bill for re-approval of such seeing as though it will be J* who is using them.
Speaking of managers. Who paid the wages of the QF guys who have gone to Jet connect and Jetstar pacific?
Who paid for the training of all the Jetconnect crews on the 737NG? Was it Jetconnect or QF?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jetstar flight broke down at Sydney. Jetstar passengers sent to Qantas terminal ticket sales to receive free tickets to Destination on QF. Did jetstar pay QF for the seats?
Also Jetstar crew at QF security days. Is that cost being passed on to Jetstar?
Also Jetstar crew at QF security days. Is that cost being passed on to Jetstar?
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cloud Cukoo Land
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Small thread drift:
QAN Shareholder, OK, I'll bite.
"If you really want to understand the source of the problems with Qantas international you could request the profitability for each of the international routes for the last few years. This is fraught with danger though since I suspect it would become apparent that there are routes that haven't made a profit for years and have no prospect of making an acceptable return anytime soon hence either routes or costs need to be cut. It is far easier to remain in ignorance and keep pretending that management are evil and corrupt."
I think it has already been pointed out to you that due to monumental cock ups in fleet decision by current and previous management and further monumental cock ups in the deploying of currently arriving new fleet, and future arrivals of new fleet types is partly to blame for this - directly attributable to senior management. Furthermore lets compare apples with apples.
A QF A330 and a JQ A330 theoretically have exactly the same fixed costs. Fuel, maintenance, landing charges, airways fees etc - I could go on. The only major variables are catering, crew costs and ancillary options able to be purchased. If we look specifically at crewing costs on board the aircraft - pilots in particular - they usually make up around 3 - 4% of the ticket price. If AJ states that QF pilots do actually cost 40% more than their JQ counterparts (which I think you will find is a major lie - or perhaps its an AJ calculator problem), then another 1.6% of the ticket price could be attributable by crew. This would make absolutley bugger all difference in the grand scheme of things. Then if BB and AJ say that if JQ crew would be paid QF rates, their airline model would go broke. They are pretty thin margins they are working on UNLESS, QF mainline is footing the bills. If the margins are running that thin that 1.6% makes or breaks the business, then I can hardly imagine that JQ are making their claimed 1st half profit of 143 Mil.
Now that you have a clearer picture, I'll reply to your statement. JQ aren't going to make returns on QF routes that it displaces QF from and in some cases will lose more money due to the Low Yield business model. Japan is a perfect example. QF fly full loads out of Narita but JQ doesn't come close. It is industry known that Japanese travel agents will boycott Jetstar due to its brand image from Nagoya etc and bus/train/ internal flight passengers to Narita to fly QF. One could argue that the "evil and corrupt" management that you are referring to are not at all interested in running a successful airline but would rather turn QF into a travel agency. I'm tipping that they have no idea how to run a successful premium carrier even though they had the advantage of having a multi billion dollar brand name handed to them on a plate! They obviously come from the philosophy of how to make a small fortune in aviation is start with a large one.
I'd be interested to hear what you think is going to happen with AJ and BB planting $500 mil into JQ Asia in Singapore when SQ are going to retaliate with their own LCC. Do you really think that SQ are going to let them get away with pushing in on their turf? I'm sure they've been wined and dined and told "we look forward to you investing here" but I'd say your going to see $500 mil flushed down the Singapore sewer - along with the ensuing blood bath. LCC are a cut throat industry and AJ has already been stabbed in the back by his "mate" Fernandes. Where do you think that $500 mil will be sourced?
The fact of the matter is that AJ and his band of merry men's story is changing faster than Paris Hiltons boyfriends and if you truly believe the myopic spin he keeps putting out then I guess you'd also be happy with the current share price, the direction its been taking since AJ took the helm and lack of dividends. I have QF shares and I'm bloody appalled!
Rant over.
So back to topic:
QF mainline made a first half profit of $165 mil, JQ made an 18% increase to $143 mil. Virgin made $72 mil and JB stated that the leisure market is badly performing but the business market is improving. This all sourced from Steve Creedy and the Australian newspaper. 17th Feb 2011.
If this is the case, how did QF lose more than $365 mil in 5 months, and how did JQ make double what virgin made if the leisure conditions were so bad as stated in the media? (see bad wx, floods affecting tourist destinations served by VB and JQ)
Why did QF shut down the centre of service excellence for Rollers (engine shop) when they now can't even get access to Asian facilities to get what one could consider essential modifications to the compressors? What cost can you attribute to the damage this has caused to the brand (apart from AJ opening his mouth) and why revenue stream wasn't sort when it was open for maintenance for other airlines?
QAN Shareholder, OK, I'll bite.
"If you really want to understand the source of the problems with Qantas international you could request the profitability for each of the international routes for the last few years. This is fraught with danger though since I suspect it would become apparent that there are routes that haven't made a profit for years and have no prospect of making an acceptable return anytime soon hence either routes or costs need to be cut. It is far easier to remain in ignorance and keep pretending that management are evil and corrupt."
I think it has already been pointed out to you that due to monumental cock ups in fleet decision by current and previous management and further monumental cock ups in the deploying of currently arriving new fleet, and future arrivals of new fleet types is partly to blame for this - directly attributable to senior management. Furthermore lets compare apples with apples.
A QF A330 and a JQ A330 theoretically have exactly the same fixed costs. Fuel, maintenance, landing charges, airways fees etc - I could go on. The only major variables are catering, crew costs and ancillary options able to be purchased. If we look specifically at crewing costs on board the aircraft - pilots in particular - they usually make up around 3 - 4% of the ticket price. If AJ states that QF pilots do actually cost 40% more than their JQ counterparts (which I think you will find is a major lie - or perhaps its an AJ calculator problem), then another 1.6% of the ticket price could be attributable by crew. This would make absolutley bugger all difference in the grand scheme of things. Then if BB and AJ say that if JQ crew would be paid QF rates, their airline model would go broke. They are pretty thin margins they are working on UNLESS, QF mainline is footing the bills. If the margins are running that thin that 1.6% makes or breaks the business, then I can hardly imagine that JQ are making their claimed 1st half profit of 143 Mil.
Now that you have a clearer picture, I'll reply to your statement. JQ aren't going to make returns on QF routes that it displaces QF from and in some cases will lose more money due to the Low Yield business model. Japan is a perfect example. QF fly full loads out of Narita but JQ doesn't come close. It is industry known that Japanese travel agents will boycott Jetstar due to its brand image from Nagoya etc and bus/train/ internal flight passengers to Narita to fly QF. One could argue that the "evil and corrupt" management that you are referring to are not at all interested in running a successful airline but would rather turn QF into a travel agency. I'm tipping that they have no idea how to run a successful premium carrier even though they had the advantage of having a multi billion dollar brand name handed to them on a plate! They obviously come from the philosophy of how to make a small fortune in aviation is start with a large one.
I'd be interested to hear what you think is going to happen with AJ and BB planting $500 mil into JQ Asia in Singapore when SQ are going to retaliate with their own LCC. Do you really think that SQ are going to let them get away with pushing in on their turf? I'm sure they've been wined and dined and told "we look forward to you investing here" but I'd say your going to see $500 mil flushed down the Singapore sewer - along with the ensuing blood bath. LCC are a cut throat industry and AJ has already been stabbed in the back by his "mate" Fernandes. Where do you think that $500 mil will be sourced?
The fact of the matter is that AJ and his band of merry men's story is changing faster than Paris Hiltons boyfriends and if you truly believe the myopic spin he keeps putting out then I guess you'd also be happy with the current share price, the direction its been taking since AJ took the helm and lack of dividends. I have QF shares and I'm bloody appalled!
Rant over.
So back to topic:
QF mainline made a first half profit of $165 mil, JQ made an 18% increase to $143 mil. Virgin made $72 mil and JB stated that the leisure market is badly performing but the business market is improving. This all sourced from Steve Creedy and the Australian newspaper. 17th Feb 2011.
If this is the case, how did QF lose more than $365 mil in 5 months, and how did JQ make double what virgin made if the leisure conditions were so bad as stated in the media? (see bad wx, floods affecting tourist destinations served by VB and JQ)
Why did QF shut down the centre of service excellence for Rollers (engine shop) when they now can't even get access to Asian facilities to get what one could consider essential modifications to the compressors? What cost can you attribute to the damage this has caused to the brand (apart from AJ opening his mouth) and why revenue stream wasn't sort when it was open for maintenance for other airlines?
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cloud Cukoo Land
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is Dixon's role and ownership in regard to Aircraft Leasing companies and Contract Cabin Crew companies? Was this occurring while he was still CEO of QF? Is he contracting Cabin Crew to Qantas and Leasing Aircraft to Qantas at present?
QAN Shareholder:
Nice try, troll.
Unfortunately you are simply wrong and/or deliberately spreading disinformation. The basic mechanics of internal cost allocations between business units that the boys are talking about here are very easy, obvious and transparent. They have every right to ask questions and the answers they requested are easy to provide, since the account coding system will tell them the answers.
This is accounting 101, not rocket science and certainly not the "metaphysics" some forms of cost allocation involve. Its straight forward business costing that is applicable to any business, not just an airline.
Where it can get highly technical is where we start talking about costs charged per man hour/ block hour/ engine hour/ cycle, and how these are constructed, however we are nowhere near that subject yet.
What the boys have already found, in my opinion, is enough smoke and sparks to suggest that there really is a fire burning in the Qantas Accounting Department.
Any competent accountant should be able to produce a simple CONTRIBUTION ANALYSIS* in less than a week that will indicate the extent of the issue, or not. Translation: It ain't "too hard" at this level, but nice try.
As i have stated multiple times before, what is lacking in Australia is the independent forensic airline accounting skills to analyse and perhaps prosecute Qantas for predatory pricing under the Trade Practices Act, even if successive governments weren't so supine as to want to try. Don't expect the big accounting firms to produce "independent" analysis either - they won't, if they ever want Qantas business again.
* Contribution analysis = Total Revenue minus total direct costs of the respective operations (fuel, pilots and CC wages), maybe notional line maintenance hourly rate, but that would be the same for both Jetstar and Qantas). This figure excludes all overheads, so this is before the bean counters get to start fiddling and massaging the numbers.
I'm assuming you're serious here and not just grandstanding but what you are looking for is implausible. For an organisation as complex as Qantas it would take a qualified accountant with full access to all documents and finance staff weeks to get to the stage where they understand how it all operates. From your posts here it is apparent that you know as much about accounting and finance as I do about fixing planes hence 'the full picture' will always remain elusive.
If you really want to understand the source of the problems with Qantas international you could request the profitability for each of the international routes for the last few years. This is fraught with danger though since I suspect it would become apparent that there are routes that haven't made a profit for years and have no prospect of making an acceptable return anytime soon hence either routes or costs need to be cut. It is far easier to remain in ignorance and keep pretending that management are evil and corrupt.
If you really want to understand the source of the problems with Qantas international you could request the profitability for each of the international routes for the last few years. This is fraught with danger though since I suspect it would become apparent that there are routes that haven't made a profit for years and have no prospect of making an acceptable return anytime soon hence either routes or costs need to be cut. It is far easier to remain in ignorance and keep pretending that management are evil and corrupt.
Nice try, troll.
Unfortunately you are simply wrong and/or deliberately spreading disinformation. The basic mechanics of internal cost allocations between business units that the boys are talking about here are very easy, obvious and transparent. They have every right to ask questions and the answers they requested are easy to provide, since the account coding system will tell them the answers.
This is accounting 101, not rocket science and certainly not the "metaphysics" some forms of cost allocation involve. Its straight forward business costing that is applicable to any business, not just an airline.
Where it can get highly technical is where we start talking about costs charged per man hour/ block hour/ engine hour/ cycle, and how these are constructed, however we are nowhere near that subject yet.
What the boys have already found, in my opinion, is enough smoke and sparks to suggest that there really is a fire burning in the Qantas Accounting Department.
Any competent accountant should be able to produce a simple CONTRIBUTION ANALYSIS* in less than a week that will indicate the extent of the issue, or not. Translation: It ain't "too hard" at this level, but nice try.
As i have stated multiple times before, what is lacking in Australia is the independent forensic airline accounting skills to analyse and perhaps prosecute Qantas for predatory pricing under the Trade Practices Act, even if successive governments weren't so supine as to want to try. Don't expect the big accounting firms to produce "independent" analysis either - they won't, if they ever want Qantas business again.
* Contribution analysis = Total Revenue minus total direct costs of the respective operations (fuel, pilots and CC wages), maybe notional line maintenance hourly rate, but that would be the same for both Jetstar and Qantas). This figure excludes all overheads, so this is before the bean counters get to start fiddling and massaging the numbers.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about the big surpluss of pilots as flying is transferred to JQ? Surely paying them to fly those aeroplanes would be cheaper than having them sit around doing nothing.
Qan Shareholder, the comparison of 'some' Captains is a tactic your mob has started using in the media quite liberally. I have flown nearly max hours in the last 12 months, and get paid not a lot more than JQ 330 Captains who do not fly any more.
But that sort of truth doesn't suit the company agenda. As for pilots sitting around being paid to do nothing, of course smart management have nothing to do with that. Surely they could utilise their resources a lot better.
How much has QF spent on its industrial relations agenda? They could have saved millions for shareholders by being smart and working with people rather than openly against them.
Qan Shareholder, the comparison of 'some' Captains is a tactic your mob has started using in the media quite liberally. I have flown nearly max hours in the last 12 months, and get paid not a lot more than JQ 330 Captains who do not fly any more.
But that sort of truth doesn't suit the company agenda. As for pilots sitting around being paid to do nothing, of course smart management have nothing to do with that. Surely they could utilise their resources a lot better.
How much has QF spent on its industrial relations agenda? They could have saved millions for shareholders by being smart and working with people rather than openly against them.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just done a quick google search with regard to remuneration laws. It seems that the new rules that came into effect on the 1st of July this year could have some bearing if every staff member who holds shares votes against them two separate times. If this happens, the board gets spilled:
Shareholder
Could be worth a bit more research and reading. 25% of the total people who cast votes is the magic number, not 25% of the total shares.
Shareholder
Could be worth a bit more research and reading. 25% of the total people who cast votes is the magic number, not 25% of the total shares.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: AtoB
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry if this has been posted previously but I would like to know how the 'leasing arrangements' work with regards to some Jetstar A320s. One example I found is VH-VGD which is an A320 operated by Jetstar as the 'Registered Operator' however, Qantas is the 'Registration Holder'. I know there are at least four more A320s that were delivered late in 2010 but cannot find the details. You can search the CASA database here:
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Search CASA's aircraft register
I would like to see this question answered by AJ or BB . If given the chance I would ask them myself. Its time to tell the truth boys!!!!!
Yeah I know, tell him he's dreamin........
Ex Qantas A330s VH-EBA etc also display as registered to Qantas also but the company name is QANTAS EBA G.I.E. Its the same for VH-EBB but the company name is QANTAS EBB G.I.E. The list goes on.
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Search CASA's aircraft register
I would like to see this question answered by AJ or BB . If given the chance I would ask them myself. Its time to tell the truth boys!!!!!
Yeah I know, tell him he's dreamin........
Ex Qantas A330s VH-EBA etc also display as registered to Qantas also but the company name is QANTAS EBA G.I.E. Its the same for VH-EBB but the company name is QANTAS EBB G.I.E. The list goes on.