JetStar NZ
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: ASIA
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PhoenixNZ,
you wonder boy you! All these posts coming from a 26yo guy without any aviation experience. Hmmmm 26 are we? Really?
You seem to have a firm hold of the industry and a bunch of well balance posts for someone who claims to be a "Jit" star cadet.
Think you're trying a little hard with the sales pitch. Your time is up, now go back to your poxy HR office.
you wonder boy you! All these posts coming from a 26yo guy without any aviation experience. Hmmmm 26 are we? Really?
You seem to have a firm hold of the industry and a bunch of well balance posts for someone who claims to be a "Jit" star cadet.
Think you're trying a little hard with the sales pitch. Your time is up, now go back to your poxy HR office.
You need to open your horizons a little Phoenix. It is not the cadets that airline management are trying to screw, it is anybody and anything that gets in their way of making a personal profit. Geoff Dixon was happy to screw the entire airline to line his pockets. My argument is not anti-cadet, it is anti-short term greed oriented management. They are in it for themselves and do not play by the gentlemanly rules that you and I would if given a chance. Enthusiastic peolple willing to sacrifice themselves just makes it that much easier for them. They will push employees to reduce conditions until employees push back.
Yes, I agree that optimism generally gets you further in life than pessimism. Use that optimism to become active in a union to improve your conditions. The GA attitude of improving your conditions by quitting your current employer and working for someone else when your experience improves is the old way. Smart management is on to that modus operandi and they use it to their advantage. In all forms of conflic you must adapt to survive. You accuse us old fellas of being unable to adapt to the new ways, but it is this GA attitude that is the old way, and it is not going to get the results anymore.
I suspect I am quite a bit older than you, with plenty of heavy jet experience. I can see the writing on the wall and I am actively re-skilling myself rather than hoping I can get an elusive good paying overseas job should things go belly up. Hopefully I will not have to use it and can remain doing what I love.
Yes, I agree that optimism generally gets you further in life than pessimism. Use that optimism to become active in a union to improve your conditions. The GA attitude of improving your conditions by quitting your current employer and working for someone else when your experience improves is the old way. Smart management is on to that modus operandi and they use it to their advantage. In all forms of conflic you must adapt to survive. You accuse us old fellas of being unable to adapt to the new ways, but it is this GA attitude that is the old way, and it is not going to get the results anymore.
I suspect I am quite a bit older than you, with plenty of heavy jet experience. I can see the writing on the wall and I am actively re-skilling myself rather than hoping I can get an elusive good paying overseas job should things go belly up. Hopefully I will not have to use it and can remain doing what I love.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: back of the crew bus
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting argument remoak. You state that conditions will improve because experience is valuable. You criticise my statement about observations of cadet courses, yet it is simply the same argument logically applied to lack of experience. That is, if experience is valuable and worth paying for, providing a product that is inexperienced will attract less pay. I thought it was a pretty simple observation back then.
Anyway, I would agree with you that a pilot with a bare type rating and no experience has very little value and could expect to be paid very little. The same pilot, with experience, is worth a lot more. The value lies in the experience, not the type rating.
This is not an unusual concept. Ask anyone who has ever undertaken an apprenticeship, it is basically exactly the same model as what Jetstar are offering. New apprentices earn very, very little. They know they are paying for their experience and qualifications via salary sacrifice, but they ALSO know that, in the long run, they will make it back up in spades. Ask any plumber or engineer if their pay and conditions improved as their experience grew. As I said, the concept is not new. It is just new to pilots (well, in Australia and NZ at any rate).
Hopefully those lessons will be put to good use in the upcoming action by QF pilots.
My guess is that the Qantas pilots will fold. Long memories and all that.
Granted, conditions are much more likely to improve if there is a skill shortage, but only if we manage ourselves well, oil does not run out and the USA does not implode in a debt and borrowing sinkhole dragging the whole world with it.
Two years later, 600 UK pilots were unemployed and conditions were under pressure (although they never really got any worse).
Five years after that, it was boom time again. Salaries and conditions went up. Airlines struggled to find crews. Guys that had been scraping a living in Bandeirantes suddenly found themselves flying 767s... and so on.
Unfortunately, most of the people jumping up and down on PhoenixNZ's head are simply trying to protect their own interests. Nobody gives a toss about his career, it's all about some nebulous benefit for his elders and betters. Most of these same people would have jumped at such an opportunity when they were younger and inexperienced. Such is the fundamentally selfish and self-centred nature of most pilots.
One day, Australia and NZ will wake up and realise that the world has fundamentally changed, and along with it the standard career path for young pilots. Nobody outside these shores believes that the only path to an airline career is many years in GA.
Time to move on...
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would like to point out something:
No one here who is jumping all over me for daring to have a different opinion than the majority has actually answered the question I posed.
If you were in my position when you started your aviation career and you had the same opportunity to go direct to airline after training, would you pass that up?
As remoak has pointed out, the cadets program is no different at all to any other industry that runs apprenticeships. You start out young, inexperienced and under paid. As your experience grows, generally so will your salary otherwise you start looking for other employers when you enter as a employee rather than an apprentice.
diablo:
And this is the problem with this discussion. One can't have an opposing opinion without being called a scab, sellout, HR employee, management wannabe etc etc etc.
Believe it or not people can actually have a different opinion than yourself while still being in the exact same role or aspiring to be in the exact same role.
Headmaster:
And dont worry, as soon as I'm at a point where I no longer consider myself inexperienced and effectively an apprentice I'll be pushing right along side you. I have no intention to simply stay on low rates for the rest of my life because management think they can keep me on some poxy contract. I'm simply happy to accept the poxy contract to start with while I build the experience, reputation and skills I need to push my case further.
No one here who is jumping all over me for daring to have a different opinion than the majority has actually answered the question I posed.
If you were in my position when you started your aviation career and you had the same opportunity to go direct to airline after training, would you pass that up?
As remoak has pointed out, the cadets program is no different at all to any other industry that runs apprenticeships. You start out young, inexperienced and under paid. As your experience grows, generally so will your salary otherwise you start looking for other employers when you enter as a employee rather than an apprentice.
diablo:
PhoenixNZ,
you wonder boy you! All these posts coming from a 26yo guy without any aviation experience. Hmmmm 26 are we? Really?
You seem to have a firm hold of the industry and a bunch of well balance posts for someone who claims to be a "Jit" star cadet.
Think you're trying a little hard with the sales pitch. Your time is up, now go back to your poxy HR office.
you wonder boy you! All these posts coming from a 26yo guy without any aviation experience. Hmmmm 26 are we? Really?
You seem to have a firm hold of the industry and a bunch of well balance posts for someone who claims to be a "Jit" star cadet.
Think you're trying a little hard with the sales pitch. Your time is up, now go back to your poxy HR office.
Believe it or not people can actually have a different opinion than yourself while still being in the exact same role or aspiring to be in the exact same role.
Headmaster:
You need to open your horizons a little Phoenix. It is not the cadets that airline management are trying to screw, it is anybody and anything that gets in their way of making a personal profit. Geoff Dixon was happy to screw the entire airline to line his pockets. My argument is not anti-cadet, it is anti-short term greed oriented management. They are in it for themselves and do not play by the gentlemanly rules that you and I would if given a chance. Enthusiastic peolple willing to sacrifice themselves just makes it that much easier for them. They will push employees to reduce conditions until employees push back.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: back of the crew bus
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Phoenix me old china...
Pointless question. Everybody here would, even the ones that won't admit it or try and hold some mythical moral high ground on the subject.
The truth is, most pilots would eat their young to get the gig, usually while denying it.
If you were in my position when you started your aviation career and you had the same opportunity to go direct to airline after training, would you pass that up?
The truth is, most pilots would eat their young to get the gig, usually while denying it.
As far as Julia having less balls than Bob, a funny comment I admit, but the situation is fundamentally different with regard to the industrial climate, legislation, and the tactics being employed. Like it or not, it is the success or not of the current action being undertaken by QF pilots that will determine the pay and conditions of all pilots in the region.
Phoenix, I hope you are right, but for that to be the case, airlines must value the experience you hope to gain. In the past airline magemengt was made up of people with industry experience of some sort. That is becoming less the case. MBA graduates who see a seat filled by a 200 hour pilot being worth the same as one with 15,000 hours are now filling those management positions and will not see the value of experience until it costs $.
I thought I answered at about post 93 with
Phoenix, I hope you are right, but for that to be the case, airlines must value the experience you hope to gain. In the past airline magemengt was made up of people with industry experience of some sort. That is becoming less the case. MBA graduates who see a seat filled by a 200 hour pilot being worth the same as one with 15,000 hours are now filling those management positions and will not see the value of experience until it costs $.
I thought I answered at about post 93 with
I don't expect you, or people like you, not to take the jobs. That is not realistic and I don't expect it to happen.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thats not answer whether you would have taken the cadetship if you were in that position. Simply that you dont begrudge those of us who do now.
But ultimately I'm not so concerned with your replies Headmaster. You have the ability to discuss the topic in a mature and reasonable fashion. It was more aimed at the others who come here and do nothing but bitch bitch bitch about the scheme while at the same time thinking that they would be taking it if it were an option when they started their careers.
Where I come from we call it hypocricy.
But ultimately I'm not so concerned with your replies Headmaster. You have the ability to discuss the topic in a mature and reasonable fashion. It was more aimed at the others who come here and do nothing but bitch bitch bitch about the scheme while at the same time thinking that they would be taking it if it were an option when they started their careers.
Where I come from we call it hypocricy.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
All you people ripping shreds off this lad and telling him why he shouldn't be doing this ... fair enough. You have made some strong points and some fair points. A lot of people giving him a lot of good reasons, what NOT to do.
I would now like to hear ONE SINGLE suggestion from everyone slating him, as to what he could do, instead, that would keep you guys happy and also enable him to get where he wants to be.
Seriously.
He's 26, and wants to get into aviation. Can't blame him for that. He's got a wife and kids so he needs to have at least some kind of an income, even a mediocre one. He's probably not going to be able to sell the missus on going c-catting at ardmore and clearing $50 a week. And the kids will be not be too keen on daddy shooting off to the Botswana swamps for a couple of years. All of us who did the hard yards, I would bet that most of us were a bit younger and didn't have families, and didn't mind sleeping in cars or whatever, this guy is in a bit of a different situation.
So let's hear it from all you guys knocking him, what else is there in New Zealand that a fresh CPL can do, not flash, but anything that pays the rent and puts bread on the table and clothes on the kids' backs for 3 or 4 years while he tries to get those hours he needs to apply for Link or whatever.
We all know the answer and it is, "SWEET
ALL"
And that, my friends, is the real disgrace of NZ aviation. Not the Jetstar cadet program, which is nectar from heaven for guys in Phoenix's position.
Someone else said a couple of pages back, all Jetstar have to do to get overrun with applicants, is pay a little bit more than GA. And I agree. So now that it's actually happening and we all find that we don't like it, whose fault is it really? It's certainly not Phoenix's fault. It's not even Jetstar's fault for seeing the opportunity to save some money, and ripping into it, they are responsible to their shareholders not to us.
It's pathetic for us, who are long established in decent airline jobs and don't have to worry about money any more, to give these young guys no carrot and all stick.
Sadly that's all we've got to offer them, because WE are the ones who have let the industry get into such a goddam despicable sorry state for such a long time now.
I would now like to hear ONE SINGLE suggestion from everyone slating him, as to what he could do, instead, that would keep you guys happy and also enable him to get where he wants to be.
Seriously.
He's 26, and wants to get into aviation. Can't blame him for that. He's got a wife and kids so he needs to have at least some kind of an income, even a mediocre one. He's probably not going to be able to sell the missus on going c-catting at ardmore and clearing $50 a week. And the kids will be not be too keen on daddy shooting off to the Botswana swamps for a couple of years. All of us who did the hard yards, I would bet that most of us were a bit younger and didn't have families, and didn't mind sleeping in cars or whatever, this guy is in a bit of a different situation.
So let's hear it from all you guys knocking him, what else is there in New Zealand that a fresh CPL can do, not flash, but anything that pays the rent and puts bread on the table and clothes on the kids' backs for 3 or 4 years while he tries to get those hours he needs to apply for Link or whatever.
We all know the answer and it is, "SWEET
ALL"And that, my friends, is the real disgrace of NZ aviation. Not the Jetstar cadet program, which is nectar from heaven for guys in Phoenix's position.
Someone else said a couple of pages back, all Jetstar have to do to get overrun with applicants, is pay a little bit more than GA. And I agree. So now that it's actually happening and we all find that we don't like it, whose fault is it really? It's certainly not Phoenix's fault. It's not even Jetstar's fault for seeing the opportunity to save some money, and ripping into it, they are responsible to their shareholders not to us.
It's pathetic for us, who are long established in decent airline jobs and don't have to worry about money any more, to give these young guys no carrot and all stick.
Sadly that's all we've got to offer them, because WE are the ones who have let the industry get into such a goddam despicable sorry state for such a long time now.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No Buddah, the JQ repayment is only around 10k p/a
Also the student loan repayment is 10% of the amount above $19081.
Corrected figures:
$64000 base pay
$10000 JQ repayment
$12220 taxes
$4491 student loan payment
$37289 in hand per year or $717.96 per week.
Also the student loan repayment is 10% of the amount above $19081.
Corrected figures:
$64000 base pay
$10000 JQ repayment
$12220 taxes
$4491 student loan payment
$37289 in hand per year or $717.96 per week.
Ok thanks,
So the answer to the question would I do it? no.
I don't stand by the argument that just because they are doing it in Europe then it is the way of the future.
When I put my wings on I want to feel proud of my qualification and who I work for. Being a cadet for jetstar wouldn't make me feel proud of who I am and what I do.
$38k in the hand is a huge insult. You won't be able to live in Akl as single man, let alone with a family.
Then being bonded to jetstar for 6 years is signing your self a death warrant. They will move you and the family around at your expense.
Don't fool yourself into thinking that you'll take a shafting for 6 years to start your career, to reap the rewards later on? Who knows what the future holds for aviation?
Peak oil? read about it!
India is in the process of banning expat pilots.
Once Emirates finishes its hiring boom that will be it? for a long time?
Potentially leaving you stuck in the bottom of jetstar?
Don't fool yourself into believing that you can get in and then fight for a better deal later. By then there will be new accountants trying to find new ways to make you cheaper. All they will do is start bringing in those europeans that are paying for their 500hrs line flying that you say is ok and your contract will suddenly be terminated.
Don't think that once you get some experience you'll just go overseas and all we be ok! Want happens when your family says they want to stay in a first world country.
I have nothing against forking out cash for an investment, license, rating, endorsement etc but the jetstar cadet scheme is not a good investment it has no guarantees for the future. The return on capital is laughable.
In aviation always think about the now.
So the answer to the question would I do it? no.
I don't stand by the argument that just because they are doing it in Europe then it is the way of the future.
When I put my wings on I want to feel proud of my qualification and who I work for. Being a cadet for jetstar wouldn't make me feel proud of who I am and what I do.
$38k in the hand is a huge insult. You won't be able to live in Akl as single man, let alone with a family.
Then being bonded to jetstar for 6 years is signing your self a death warrant. They will move you and the family around at your expense.
Don't fool yourself into thinking that you'll take a shafting for 6 years to start your career, to reap the rewards later on? Who knows what the future holds for aviation?
Peak oil? read about it!
India is in the process of banning expat pilots.
Once Emirates finishes its hiring boom that will be it? for a long time?
Potentially leaving you stuck in the bottom of jetstar?
Don't fool yourself into believing that you can get in and then fight for a better deal later. By then there will be new accountants trying to find new ways to make you cheaper. All they will do is start bringing in those europeans that are paying for their 500hrs line flying that you say is ok and your contract will suddenly be terminated.
Don't think that once you get some experience you'll just go overseas and all we be ok! Want happens when your family says they want to stay in a first world country.
I have nothing against forking out cash for an investment, license, rating, endorsement etc but the jetstar cadet scheme is not a good investment it has no guarantees for the future. The return on capital is laughable.
In aviation always think about the now.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: south pacific vagrant
Posts: 1,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would love to be able to offer something constructive, but I just can't. I have read that cadet offer, and reading Remoak's posts I get the impression he hasn't.
Suffice to say that $717 per week for the next 6 years with every aspect of my life at (and I quote) "Jetstars absolute discretion", with no promises or prospects after that is not enough for me.
Suffice to say that $717 per week for the next 6 years with every aspect of my life at (and I quote) "Jetstars absolute discretion", with no promises or prospects after that is not enough for me.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wear glasses and RNZAF require 20/20 vision unaided (or very close to it)
Also a training colleague of mine found this on CTC's website (yes, I'm training with CTC):
Now CTC can't just randomly put that information up without some sort of reasonable expectation that its true. Otherwise its false advertising which would result in serious trouble. So currently its expected that after three years you would be earning $80k and shortly after that you will be a standard FO, just like all the others.
Also a training colleague of mine found this on CTC's website (yes, I'm training with CTC):
When do I start earning a salary? How much will that be?
Once you have successfully completed your Basic and Intermediate Training, the next stage is to complete Advanced Training. This comprises ground and simulator training followed by induction into Jetstar. You will then commence flying with the airline on the line, completing your line training.
For Jet Star New Zealand pilots your expected starting salary will be $62,000 for Years 1, 2 and 3. In Year 4 this will rise to $80,000. These salaries are based on you flying 850 Block hours per year. From this point onwards you will be on Jet Stars standard salary and bonus payment package
Once you have successfully completed your Basic and Intermediate Training, the next stage is to complete Advanced Training. This comprises ground and simulator training followed by induction into Jetstar. You will then commence flying with the airline on the line, completing your line training.
For Jet Star New Zealand pilots your expected starting salary will be $62,000 for Years 1, 2 and 3. In Year 4 this will rise to $80,000. These salaries are based on you flying 850 Block hours per year. From this point onwards you will be on Jet Stars standard salary and bonus payment package
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
warren:
Nothing in any of the three documents that were posted on page three mentioned anything about Jetstar retaining the right to change your home base location at their discretion without any discussion with the employee. If its in there and I've missed it then please feel free to point it out.
I would love to be able to offer something constructive, but I just can't. I have read that cadet offer, and reading Remoak's posts I get the impression he hasn't.
Suffice to say that $717 per week for the next 6 years with every aspect of my life at (and I quote) "Jetstars absolute discretion", with no promises or prospects after that is not enough for me.
Suffice to say that $717 per week for the next 6 years with every aspect of my life at (and I quote) "Jetstars absolute discretion", with no promises or prospects after that is not enough for me.
I think you'll find the RNZAF don't mind you wearing glasses.. Well they didn't when I went through the selection process in 1998..
I was paid NZ$800 a week when I was working GA in NZ, to be paid less to fly an Airbus in NZ, when there are (mind you a small number) of GA operators who do pay pilots properly. With those GA operators, you are home every night and live in some pretty nice places around NZ and certainly aren't as expensive to live in as Auckland! Plus you'll get those nice basic skills you'll need later, like decision making and good old fashioned stick and rudder skills.
I was paid NZ$800 a week when I was working GA in NZ, to be paid less to fly an Airbus in NZ, when there are (mind you a small number) of GA operators who do pay pilots properly. With those GA operators, you are home every night and live in some pretty nice places around NZ and certainly aren't as expensive to live in as Auckland! Plus you'll get those nice basic skills you'll need later, like decision making and good old fashioned stick and rudder skills.
Direct from the rishworth recruitment e-mail
Hold, or be eligible to hold an Australian ATPL
Payment
On commencement NZ$65,000
On completion of 1 year of service NZ$66,950
On completion of 2 years of service NZ$68,959
So why should a cadet get more than direct entry F/o?
See what your getting yourself involved with? You get experienced and this is what you'll get!
Hold, or be eligible to hold an Australian ATPL
Payment
On commencement NZ$65,000
On completion of 1 year of service NZ$66,950
On completion of 2 years of service NZ$68,959
So why should a cadet get more than direct entry F/o?
See what your getting yourself involved with? You get experienced and this is what you'll get!
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location Location
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Phoenix,
Oh dear. I fear for your families future.
Nothing in any of the three documents that were posted on page three mentioned anything about Jetstar retaining the right to change your home base location at their discretion without any discussion with the employee. If its in there and I've missed it then please feel free to point it out.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Standard employment law. Unless you have something in your contract that requires you to do something, your not required to do it unless you agree to.
Of course they could go down the redundancy track which is possible but who knows. All I'm saying is that there is currently nothing that backs up a number of the statements that have been made during this discussion.
Of course they could go down the redundancy track which is possible but who knows. All I'm saying is that there is currently nothing that backs up a number of the statements that have been made during this discussion.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Syd
Age: 42
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would now like to hear ONE SINGLE suggestion from everyone slating him, as to what he could do, instead, that would keep you guys happy and also enable him to get where he wants to be.
Plenty doing it and plenty more will keep doing it and having a blast gaining rock solid experience.