JetStar NZ
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: new zealand
Age: 74
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PHOENIX. In 18 months,assuming you pass all your exams,checks,medicals etc you may well be in Auckland flying the Jet, earning 64k less 20k loan repayment. How will you support a wife and 2 kids given the cost of accommodation and living there for the next 6 years [until loans repayed]. Youll be ok, dont think the wife will be impressed. wont be too many zoo trips.
In answer to your question 'Why cadet schemes?'
Because they get their pilots cheaper [even make money training them] and they have them bonded for 6 years on pay and conditions below that of a pilot from GA.
If you have a qualification and well paying job, stick to it. You will be better off in the short,medium and probably long term.
ps ..all this talk of pilot shortage assumes continuing availability of cheap fuel and Global financial stability..hmmmmm
In answer to your question 'Why cadet schemes?'
Because they get their pilots cheaper [even make money training them] and they have them bonded for 6 years on pay and conditions below that of a pilot from GA.
If you have a qualification and well paying job, stick to it. You will be better off in the short,medium and probably long term.
ps ..all this talk of pilot shortage assumes continuing availability of cheap fuel and Global financial stability..hmmmmm
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
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PHOENIX. In 18 months,assuming you pass all your exams,checks,medicals etc you may well be in Auckland flying the Jet, earning 64k less 20k loan repayment. How will you support a wife and 2 kids given the cost of accommodation and living there for the next 6 years [until loans repayed]. Youll be ok, dont think the wife will be impressed. wont be too many zoo trips.
In saying this how is it any different to taking a GA job for 30k or 40k a year? Same net pay at the end but the GA job doesn't see me getting time in an A320. Not to mention its entirely possible that I'd still have to pay my own type rating which I'd have to do through a personal loan generating 15% interest P/A (if I'm lucky to get that sort of rate).
Regarding staying on the same contract/pay. Yes, if I continue with Jetstar after six years its entirely possible nothing would change. But I'm again confident in my own abilities that either Jetstar would be willing to put me on a standard contract to keep my services or to otherwise find another job for either equal or better pay with better advancement opportunities.
It all comes down to how much you believe in yourself that you can get where you want to go. I have complete faith that I can get into a job doing and paying what I want. It wont be easy by any means but I know I'll get there in the end.
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Phoenix.
''Given that its a 61k loan paid off over six years I think your math may be a little off there =)''
A CPL, MEIR, 250HRS, PLUS the a320 type rating for 61k ???? check your adding. The a320 rating is 40k alone....
''Given that its a 61k loan paid off over six years I think your math may be a little off there =)''
A CPL, MEIR, 250HRS, PLUS the a320 type rating for 61k ???? check your adding. The a320 rating is 40k alone....
Join Date: Jul 2011
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The only portion being repaid to JQ is the ACP program which is $61k. The rest is a student loan which you would pay off regardless of what job you went into.
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Ok....how big will the student loan be?
Is it worth all that debt for a job netting 40-50k?? in the first 6 years.
Is it worth all that debt for a job netting 40-50k?? in the first 6 years.
My loan will be around 80k and I'm not getting it for the pay rate at the start but rather the one you get later down the track.
Its also becaue of the career that I want to be in. Sure I could get a 30k loan for business studies and probably end up making more money that I ever will as a pilot. But I wont be doing the job that I love every day.
You have just bought in to the lie. If you have demonstrated that you are willing to work for $64K NZ and have noted that there are plenty more willing to work for those conditions, how can you be confident that you can get a higher paying job after a few years? Like I said earlier, project this trend forward a few more steps and you will see that the big expat airlines are only going to pay just enough to temp pilots to their shores. As the pay rate for second tier airlines in the first world goes down, so the pay for these expat jobs will go down proportionately. Add to that, the new guy coming in at the bottom of JStar on the new Multi-crew licence cadetship (or whatever the industry manages to get past the regulator by then) will be even less experienced and willing to work for even less than you, threatening your already piss poor condions.
10/10 for enthusiasm
10/10 for naivety
Good luck...
10/10 for enthusiasm
10/10 for naivety
Good luck...
If I wasn't so sure you are an idiot, I would think you are an internet troll.
I do believe it was Mark Twain that said
"Don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Good day, you poor misguided fool. I hope for your family's sake you come to your senses before it is too late
I do believe it was Mark Twain that said
"Don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Good day, you poor misguided fool. I hope for your family's sake you come to your senses before it is too late
Join Date: Jul 2011
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HomeJames
Do you lack the ability to engage in mature debate without resorting to calling people names for disagreeing with your perspective?
Headmaster
Yes, they pay slightly more to attact pilots which in turn forces other airlines to also pay more than that to attract pilots and so on and so on.
But this debate has probably run its course. Neither of us can say with absolute certainty what the outcome of cadet programs will be as neither of us posses a crystal ball. I'll keep following the track that I feel will result in a good career and income for myself and my family. Given that I've come from an income of around $33k prior to my training I dont see any circumstances where I'm worse off.
Do you lack the ability to engage in mature debate without resorting to calling people names for disagreeing with your perspective?
Headmaster
Yes, they pay slightly more to attact pilots which in turn forces other airlines to also pay more than that to attract pilots and so on and so on.
But this debate has probably run its course. Neither of us can say with absolute certainty what the outcome of cadet programs will be as neither of us posses a crystal ball. I'll keep following the track that I feel will result in a good career and income for myself and my family. Given that I've come from an income of around $33k prior to my training I dont see any circumstances where I'm worse off.
Join Date: May 2011
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Jetstar saw this guy coming from miles away and stuck their glossy brochures in front of his eyes and dazzled him with the BS spin and told him just how wonderful their job would be.
And yep he bought it hook line and sinker.
Good luck seems you are sold on it hope all works out.
And further testament to how great these guys are to work for.
True story from a friend who applied for this money fleecing scheme a while back.
Asked to go to NZ for interviews etc at own cost.
Week later was told sorry you have been unsuccesful blah blah.
Few days later rung up again asked to come in for another interview this time in Aus again at own expense. Nice way to screw some money out of a potential employee then tell them oh now we dont want you, oh but hang on pay us some more $$$$ for another interview WTF !!!
And yep he bought it hook line and sinker.
Good luck seems you are sold on it hope all works out.
And further testament to how great these guys are to work for.
True story from a friend who applied for this money fleecing scheme a while back.
Asked to go to NZ for interviews etc at own cost.
Week later was told sorry you have been unsuccesful blah blah.
Few days later rung up again asked to come in for another interview this time in Aus again at own expense. Nice way to screw some money out of a potential employee then tell them oh now we dont want you, oh but hang on pay us some more $$$$ for another interview WTF !!!
Hmm, expat airlines paying just enough to attract JStar NZ pilots does not force other carriers to pay more. People are happy to leave the desert for lower conditions to get home. This is about step 4 or 5 down the path that you have not thought about. People who have made some money overseas before the conditions were eroded are in a position to work for less, because they want to get home and have paid for their kid's schooling, bought plenty of toys and have paid off the house. It is already happening, my friend, and it is another reason why you will probably never snag that high-paying aviation job.
By all means dream the dream, but you are arguing with guys here that know the industry and the nature of enthusiastic wannabee pilots.
By all means dream the dream, but you are arguing with guys here that know the industry and the nature of enthusiastic wannabee pilots.
Join Date: Jul 2011
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In all fairness you know your own perceptions of the industry. Cadets are something new for out section of the industry and only time will tell how they impact it.
Even without the cadets programs its still a huge financial contribution to get through AB Initio which is what will still deter a huge number of aviation wannabes.
Even without the cadets programs its still a huge financial contribution to get through AB Initio which is what will still deter a huge number of aviation wannabes.
Every post you make reinforces that perception. All you have to hang your hat on is your confidence in your ability to find a higher paying job at some time in the future whilst ignoring the mechanics of what is driving the wage pressures.
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No I just see a different story unfolding to you.
My view is that yes, wages will most likely be lower than they are currently because the airlines are unable to sustain them currently.
However I certainly dont believe that they will decrease to the extents you feel because if they do airlines will be unable to find new pilots as the cost of becoming one will far outweigh the reward.
I personally dont mind that much whether in the future I'm earning 100k or 150k. Either way its considerably more than what I earned prior to flying and at the same time I'm getting to do the job I love.
My view is that yes, wages will most likely be lower than they are currently because the airlines are unable to sustain them currently.
However I certainly dont believe that they will decrease to the extents you feel because if they do airlines will be unable to find new pilots as the cost of becoming one will far outweigh the reward.
I personally dont mind that much whether in the future I'm earning 100k or 150k. Either way its considerably more than what I earned prior to flying and at the same time I'm getting to do the job I love.
On the contrary Phoenix, if there was any mature debate here I would happily engage. All I see here is a wannabe telling us all how it is with no basis for his opinions other than an overactive and terminally optimistic imagination. But you know better of course.
Furthermore, I should congratulate you, you have also just joined a very exclusive club, my ignore list.
Furthermore, I should congratulate you, you have also just joined a very exclusive club, my ignore list.
Join Date: Sep 2000
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My view is that yes, wages will most likely be lower than they are currently because the airlines are unable to sustain them currently.
However I certainly dont believe that they will decrease to the extents you feel because if they do airlines will be unable to find new pilots as the cost of becoming one will far outweigh the reward.
Look forward to seeing you bleating and moaning on here in a few years time because you can't afford a decent lifestyle. And you are fatigued all the time.
Most of my uni mates make more than me. And I'm on a better deal than J*
Wish I had never got into the game really.
Good luck with your new career. In my opinion you will need it.
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LukeST
Ok that quote was slightly tongue in cheek, but having said that I do tend to agree with their forecast. I did a lot of research for a project I was involved in a while back, in the airline training area, and every credible forecast says more or less the same thing: there WILL be a pilot shortage over the next 20 years. Many of the people saying it have nothing to gain by so doing, and you will note that airlines like Air NZ are gearing up to do their own ab initio training. Why do you think they are doing that?
27/09
They are learning the lessons of history. When this sort of expansion happened in Europe, experienced F/Os moved on to better gigs extremely quickly and this left the airlines exposed. Having a large pool of pilots that you can reasonably expect to be around for five years or so, brings a lot of stability to the pilot workforce. Not to mention that it gives you a large pool of command prospects.
Sumtingwong
Interesting then, that the first and by far the most successful low-cost carrier, Southwest Airlines, learned long ago that bleeding their pilots doesn't work, and that a happy, engaged workforce is what makes their company money. That's why their pilots are extremely well paid, complete with profit share, and most own a chunk of the company they work for. This is the road the other low-cost carriers will have to tread if they want to be successful. I'm pretty sure that Jetstar aren't blind to that.
I love that you think that Jetstar's only purpose in life is to shaft cadets, and then keep on shafting them in some Orwellian plot to subjugate them. Might make a fun movie, but it isn't real life.
Di Vosh
And what is the alternative? Flying crappy old geriatric GA aircraft while living in a hole, eating 2min noodles and scrounging around the aero club skip looking for extra food. Hmmm I know which I'd choose!
HomeJames
Yeah, right. And before you embarked on your flying career, you carefully assessed the impact of your ambition on those ahead of you in their careers? Thought hard about how your career choice may affect more senior pilots? Mulled over how your choices might affect the families of other flight crew?
No, you didn't. You are just as self-serving as the guy you are criticising. Just like virtually every other pilot here.
theheadmaster
Yeah and I recall being told in school that we were headed for a global ice age...
Ah yes please remind us all how it went in '89...
It's simple. Experience is worth money. Good experience and no incidents is worth a lot of money. Have a look at the Emirates payscales. Many of their recruits have about the experience Phoenix will have in 5 years. Yes, the big expat airlines... well, ALL airlines actually... are only going to pay what they have to. However, the trend is currently pretty healthy. If we do see an appreciable shortage develop - and it has several times in the last 30 years - the trend will climb sharply. Your model doesn't work because it is essentially terminally pessimistic, which is not where the industry is going.
craka
Probably so that they can get rid of them again when they have upgraded some F/Os, or because they predict a short-term Captain shortage. Either that, or all their F/O's are crap!
Flt.Lt Zed
And what would he be earning as an instructor or GA pilot? Probably less, with no prospects at all.
errrrr ... no. Sorry bro but going down that road just leads to madness and misery and flying school marketing hype.
27/09
PhoenixNZ, I've asked this question before but you have chosen not to answer it. Why do you think Jetstar have started this cadet scheme when there is a already a supply of suitable pilots to sit in the right hand seat?
Sumtingwong
Agreed, where we part dramatically in view is; This upcoming shortage is precisely why the likes of Jetstar are frantically trying to lower T+C's and then to LOCK the victim into these T+C's.
I love that you think that Jetstar's only purpose in life is to shaft cadets, and then keep on shafting them in some Orwellian plot to subjugate them. Might make a fun movie, but it isn't real life.
Di Vosh
What this really translates to is that you're about to go on a career path that will have you flying jets while living in a hole, eating 2min noodles and scrounging around the Flight Attendants stations on turnarounds looking for extra food.
HomeJames
Fantastic how you attempt to use the 'what's best for my family line' in an attempt to justify your self serving position.
No, you didn't. You are just as self-serving as the guy you are criticising. Just like virtually every other pilot here.
theheadmaster
I recall talking to colleagues 15 years ago stating that the 'cadet' courses of the day would lead to this.
They were fought for and won by people who were willing to stand up for themselves.
how can you be confident that you can get a higher paying job after a few years? Like I said earlier, project this trend forward a few more steps and you will see that the big expat airlines are only going to pay just enough to temp pilots to their shores.
craka
they have plenty of FOs with the company time and 1000's of hours on heavy jets that would meet command requirements yet they seem to be advertising for DECs why?
Flt.Lt Zed
PHOENIX. In 18 months,assuming you pass all your exams,checks,medicals etc you may well be in Auckland flying the Jet, earning 64k less 20k loan repayment. How will you support a wife and 2 kids given the cost of accommodation and living there for the next 6 years [until loans repayed]. Youll be ok, dont think the wife will be impressed. wont be too many zoo trips.
Interesting argument remoak. You state that conditions will improve because experience is valuable. You criticise my statement about observations of cadet courses, yet it is simply the same argument logically applied to lack of experience. That is, if experience is valuable and worth paying for, providing a product that is inexperienced will attract less pay. I thought it was a pretty simple observation back then.
Happy to remind you how things went in 1989. Pretty bloody bad for the poor people involved. The unfortunate side effect is that pilots have become so gun-shy as a result that they are unwilling to fight for pay and conditions. This is bad for all of us in the industry. Hopefully those lessons will be put to good use in the upcoming action by QF pilots.
My pessimistic view is reinforced by blind optimism shown by those with no general life experience. Granted, conditions are much more likely to improve if there is a skill shortage, but only if we manage ourselves well, oil does not run out and the USA does not implode in a debt and borrowing sinkhole dragging the whole world with it.
Happy to remind you how things went in 1989. Pretty bloody bad for the poor people involved. The unfortunate side effect is that pilots have become so gun-shy as a result that they are unwilling to fight for pay and conditions. This is bad for all of us in the industry. Hopefully those lessons will be put to good use in the upcoming action by QF pilots.
My pessimistic view is reinforced by blind optimism shown by those with no general life experience. Granted, conditions are much more likely to improve if there is a skill shortage, but only if we manage ourselves well, oil does not run out and the USA does not implode in a debt and borrowing sinkhole dragging the whole world with it.
Join Date: Jul 2011
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I have plenty of life experience thank you and if its one thing that I've learned its that your attitude has a strong impact on reality.
Positive people are far more likely to get ahead in life than the pessimists.
I see your points and I can understand your logic behind them as well Headmaster. However your points are largely based on a pessimistic view that airlines are only interested in screwing cadets over along with the airline industry is going to be getting worse rather than better.
I perhaps have more faith that while yes, airlines do want to reduce costs where they can, that they are not simply out there to make life miserable for cadets for their own money gains.
Positive people are far more likely to get ahead in life than the pessimists.
I see your points and I can understand your logic behind them as well Headmaster. However your points are largely based on a pessimistic view that airlines are only interested in screwing cadets over along with the airline industry is going to be getting worse rather than better.
I perhaps have more faith that while yes, airlines do want to reduce costs where they can, that they are not simply out there to make life miserable for cadets for their own money gains.
Thankyou remoak, that was marvelously presumptuous of you. Having a grandfather and uncle before me in aviation, a sense of worth and overall awareness about aviation was instilled in me from the time I could talk.
I have never accepted sub award conditions, never paid for any training after CPL and never undercut another pilot. On the other hand I have had people offer to do my current and prior jobs for half of my salary.
But no, please feel free to pigeonhole me based on my objection to someone flying an aircraft that is 5 times the size of mine at a third of the wage and the long term implications of this.
Actually, this is rather futile. It is my sincere hope that anyone who chooses to work for Jetstar gets exactly what they wish for.
I have never accepted sub award conditions, never paid for any training after CPL and never undercut another pilot. On the other hand I have had people offer to do my current and prior jobs for half of my salary.
But no, please feel free to pigeonhole me based on my objection to someone flying an aircraft that is 5 times the size of mine at a third of the wage and the long term implications of this.
Actually, this is rather futile. It is my sincere hope that anyone who chooses to work for Jetstar gets exactly what they wish for.