QF Pilots PIA
DirectAnywhere
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Network - good questions. The AIPA ballot also includes band and limitations on work, so theoretically pilots could attend work and complete certain functions and adhere to certain responsibilities, but not others.
This is where it gets tricky for QF because they have to pay pilots for the work done and can withhold part of their pay for work not done. QF will have to work out the value etc. Conversely, QF could turnaround and say they are not going to accept the partial work, and QF pilots have the option to just stay at home....
This is where it gets tricky for QF because they have to pay pilots for the work done and can withhold part of their pay for work not done. QF will have to work out the value etc. Conversely, QF could turnaround and say they are not going to accept the partial work, and QF pilots have the option to just stay at home....
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: gold coast QLD australia
Age: 86
Posts: 1,345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Going Boeing, have to make a comment on the S/O situation, whilst recognising that we all have to start somewhere, as a domestic skipper and probably the oldest S/O ever in QF after "that year" (please note Seven years after that year, in case of the s$ab accusations starting), being a S/O is money for jam. As a previous C@T skipper I saw pilots in QF I would not feed, and I saw pilots in TN (TAA) I would not feed. Indeed it was a interesting example of human behaviour, to watch a fairly young skipper in QF try to deal with someone the same age as his ol man, sitting behind him, with double the hours he had. Most were pleasant, slightly apologetic, (they need not be) and interested, in who you were and why you ended up in that situation. (Please note that fellas) its not a good place to be, down the bottom of the woodpile again. The pay was good, but somehow it did not make up for the feeling of loss of job, and perhaps dignity. It was my observation (lets be honest there is not much else to do) that Australian pilots regardless of what airline they work for or be either F/O on domestic or S/O on QF are pretty much a good well trained disciplined mob, flying OS for sometime only cemented this point of view, as I came across some shockers. There is little difference between a Domestic F/O or QF S/O, little difference at all.
Can we just put this S/O-bashing cr*p back in the box please? I'm sure there have been threads and threads on this in the past, and it is just more smokescreen at the moment.
There are three points about the S/O situation:
1. As already pointed out, a four-man crew with two S/Os is a SAVING to Qantas compared to how other airlines crew their long-range flights.
2. Under the QF contract, the S/O rate of pay is a pure MATHEMATICAL proportion of the CPT's pay for that fleet - A380 crew make more per hour than B767 crew (I'm sure there have been a million thrads on this too). If S/O pay is drastically cut, then it would be an extension of the same argument that an A380 F/O makes more than a B767 CPT etc.
3. Ask any Qantas S/O whether they WANTED to be a S/O when they joined Qantas and I'm sure their answer would have been a resounding NO! - but that's the way it has always been for Qantas longhaul. Since the advent of J* (and particularly since the rise to power of the twerp) advancement in mainline is non-existent. Since there is more money to be made on the senior fleets, it is only natural that seniority is used to move onto a higher paid aircraft - the prestige of a window seat or the extra gold/silver on the shoulder doesn't pay the bills!
Now, to answer the other question of NETWORK, I don't think there will be capacity "ready to hand" for strike-breaking. If shorthaul is a goldmine and longhaul is a DOG and Jetstar is an amaaaaaaazing business, why would you divert capacity to support a DOG. If you were looking at wet-leasing, this is very expensive and difficult to organize if its a medium (long?) term requirement. Besides which, I don't think AIPA will be going to hit the big red all-out STRIKE button for some time - it will be a range of other annoyances for management first (and by legal definition, Qantas's response can only be commensurate and proportional to the action taken by us against them).
There are three points about the S/O situation:
1. As already pointed out, a four-man crew with two S/Os is a SAVING to Qantas compared to how other airlines crew their long-range flights.
2. Under the QF contract, the S/O rate of pay is a pure MATHEMATICAL proportion of the CPT's pay for that fleet - A380 crew make more per hour than B767 crew (I'm sure there have been a million thrads on this too). If S/O pay is drastically cut, then it would be an extension of the same argument that an A380 F/O makes more than a B767 CPT etc.
3. Ask any Qantas S/O whether they WANTED to be a S/O when they joined Qantas and I'm sure their answer would have been a resounding NO! - but that's the way it has always been for Qantas longhaul. Since the advent of J* (and particularly since the rise to power of the twerp) advancement in mainline is non-existent. Since there is more money to be made on the senior fleets, it is only natural that seniority is used to move onto a higher paid aircraft - the prestige of a window seat or the extra gold/silver on the shoulder doesn't pay the bills!
Now, to answer the other question of NETWORK, I don't think there will be capacity "ready to hand" for strike-breaking. If shorthaul is a goldmine and longhaul is a DOG and Jetstar is an amaaaaaaazing business, why would you divert capacity to support a DOG. If you were looking at wet-leasing, this is very expensive and difficult to organize if its a medium (long?) term requirement. Besides which, I don't think AIPA will be going to hit the big red all-out STRIKE button for some time - it will be a range of other annoyances for management first (and by legal definition, Qantas's response can only be commensurate and proportional to the action taken by us against them).
So all the company wants is to cut the salary of the highest paid pilots in the world, same as CX United , american they all chopped at the top.
it would seem better to accept the JQ contract and free movement between the 2 entities. rather than a massive culling because of the greedy individuals sitting at the top of the tree who really have nothing to lose either way .
We are being used by these individuals so they can go out with guns blazing, there is enough jobs in Australia for all, so its best us junior brethren do not fight off a chance for a secure future.
Dont strike if you want to stay in Australia.
it would seem better to accept the JQ contract and free movement between the 2 entities. rather than a massive culling because of the greedy individuals sitting at the top of the tree who really have nothing to lose either way .
We are being used by these individuals so they can go out with guns blazing, there is enough jobs in Australia for all, so its best us junior brethren do not fight off a chance for a secure future.
Dont strike if you want to stay in Australia.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AIPA can't call an all-out strike as such, because it was not an option on the ballot. PIA is constrained to what was voted on. As much as people bag AIPA and warn about strikes, they are seriously not that stupid, having closely observed what happened in '89.
As Steve Purvinas has very appropriately said (if I recall his comments at a meeting correctly): the point of PIA is to make Alan Joyce's life hell and his position untenable until he decides he'll negotiate in good faith. Not to tick off the entire nation.
Everyone should also bear in mind that Qantas, through their magnificent (sarcasm) spokespeople, are going to exaggerate the pilot claims severely. Take what they say with a grain of salt. Or if you don't want to do that, divide it by 10 and you'll get a better approximation of what the claims really are. Also bear in mind that AIPA have said outright that everything is negotiable, except the inclusion of a scope clause in the EBA (and there are precedents for scope clauses too). They are not demanding that Qantas never retrench another pilot. They are asking for what is basically the equivalent of "labelling laws" in the EBA, ie, the ingredients on the label are what you find in the tin.
As Steve Purvinas has very appropriately said (if I recall his comments at a meeting correctly): the point of PIA is to make Alan Joyce's life hell and his position untenable until he decides he'll negotiate in good faith. Not to tick off the entire nation.
Everyone should also bear in mind that Qantas, through their magnificent (sarcasm) spokespeople, are going to exaggerate the pilot claims severely. Take what they say with a grain of salt. Or if you don't want to do that, divide it by 10 and you'll get a better approximation of what the claims really are. Also bear in mind that AIPA have said outright that everything is negotiable, except the inclusion of a scope clause in the EBA (and there are precedents for scope clauses too). They are not demanding that Qantas never retrench another pilot. They are asking for what is basically the equivalent of "labelling laws" in the EBA, ie, the ingredients on the label are what you find in the tin.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mostly at home
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RW
I think you will find that the world extends beyond the landmass of Australia and New Zealand.
If you are talking about this planet we call Earth, then all I can say is for you to at least get your facts straight. QF pilots are FAR from being the highest paid in the world.
You are just talking rubbish.
N
So all the company wants is to cut the salary of the highest paid pilots in the world
If you are talking about this planet we call Earth, then all I can say is for you to at least get your facts straight. QF pilots are FAR from being the highest paid in the world.
You are just talking rubbish.
N
Rabbitwear, who are you speaking for? I am fairly certain you are not a Qantas pilot so how can you suggest;
From your other posts it appears that you are employed by Jetstar and have an unhealthy hatred of AIPA and seniority. The AIPA strategy has no direct impact on you so excuse those of us that this does affect if we ignore your ignorant suggestions on how we should manage the situation.
A call to:
seems very self serving on your part. Something you accuse the AIPA COM of being guilty of in most of your posts.
Perhps noip put it best: You are just talking rubbish!
We are being used by these individuals...
A call to:
accept the JQ contract and free movement between the 2 entities
Perhps noip put it best: You are just talking rubbish!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: On a date with destiny.
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For all those armchair "experts" out there, who plainly know very little about what is actually going on, as opposed to the QF media spin... Explain why QF management were unable to answer the simple question of what it was they needed from us financially, to make us "competitive"? The question was met with blank looks all round the negotiating table... So much for negotiating in good faith with supposed "senior officers" of the company! 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: mexico
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“a four-man crew with two S/Os is a SAVING to Qantas compared to how other airlines crew their long-range flights.”
Ahhh, no its not mate. MOST Asian carriers you compete against would cream you in the battle of the low cockpit costs. Your 400 SO’s get more than many widebody captains. Sorry to burst your bubble but you really should arm yourself with all of the facts before entering battle.
“QF pilots are FAR from being the highest paid in the world.”
Ahhh, no, pretty close actually. There are some obvious high flying payers out there but QF would be up towards the summit.
Ahhh, no its not mate. MOST Asian carriers you compete against would cream you in the battle of the low cockpit costs. Your 400 SO’s get more than many widebody captains. Sorry to burst your bubble but you really should arm yourself with all of the facts before entering battle.
“QF pilots are FAR from being the highest paid in the world.”
Ahhh, no, pretty close actually. There are some obvious high flying payers out there but QF would be up towards the summit.
Zapatas,
I was talking about it being a saving compared to what they would be paying if they crewed the aircraft with two Captains and two F/Os (which is the practice in many other airlines). I was NOT talking about relative duty hour pay rates between different airlines.
I know that you love Qantas bashing, but have you got it now?
I was talking about it being a saving compared to what they would be paying if they crewed the aircraft with two Captains and two F/Os (which is the practice in many other airlines). I was NOT talking about relative duty hour pay rates between different airlines.
I know that you love Qantas bashing, but have you got it now?
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uae
Posts: 2,777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is going to fun to watch. QF long haul defending their position at all cost, my guess a few very senior Capt's doing everything to protect their Tand C's and could care less of the anyone else. Lets face it even a 30=40 % cut in QF longhaul and all Capt's maintain LHS seat, is there a hugh difference in pay from 767/330/747 for a Senior capt ?
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: mexico
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“I was talking about it being a saving compared to what they would be paying if they crewed the aircraft with two Captains and two F/Os”
Right, got it. Despite running crewing costs higher than most other carriers, at least its done with SO’s that cant operate in a control seat if required. And often carrying 4 crew when the competition is carrying 3.
And You reckon there is a saving?
Right, got it. Despite running crewing costs higher than most other carriers, at least its done with SO’s that cant operate in a control seat if required. And often carrying 4 crew when the competition is carrying 3.
And You reckon there is a saving?
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: australia
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zapatas....
I just reviewed your posting history, and you seem to have an uncanny bent against Qantas pilots. You unerringly dispute that they are the best in the world (whether they are implied to be or not, is not mine to say...), you dispute that they are remunerated appropriately, etc.
Just wondering - why is this so? Care to explain? What is it about the rat that p1sses you off so much?
I ask this because your statement:
is quite obvious. No-one would dispute this.
But their standard of training is WAY less than ours (I've attempted to train them - a difficult job which is why I say I've tried). Their cost of living is WAY less than ours. Their reputation is WAY less than ours. There is nothing racist in what I'm saying. It is fact. Don't like it? I really don't care.
So I take exception when you divert a discussion with what really is a red herring.
I just reviewed your posting history, and you seem to have an uncanny bent against Qantas pilots. You unerringly dispute that they are the best in the world (whether they are implied to be or not, is not mine to say...), you dispute that they are remunerated appropriately, etc.
Just wondering - why is this so? Care to explain? What is it about the rat that p1sses you off so much?
I ask this because your statement:
MOST Asian carriers you compete against would cream you in the battle of the low cockpit costs.
But their standard of training is WAY less than ours (I've attempted to train them - a difficult job which is why I say I've tried). Their cost of living is WAY less than ours. Their reputation is WAY less than ours. There is nothing racist in what I'm saying. It is fact. Don't like it? I really don't care.
So I take exception when you divert a discussion with what really is a red herring.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dubai
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Long Haul pilots fly Short Haul too..
All I read in the papers and see on the news is that the QANTAS "LONG HAUL" pilots are going on strike. To the average punter this is not a big deal because not many average punters fly "long haul" regularly.
Why is it not being emphasized that Qantas Long Haul pilots don't just fly overseas, but are in fact the backbone of Qantas's City Flyer network?
Why is it not being emphasized that Qantas Long Haul pilots don't just fly overseas, but are in fact the backbone of Qantas's City Flyer network?
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Read the thread.
even a 30=40 % cut in QF longhaul and all Capt's maintain LHS seat
is there a hugh difference in pay from 767/330/747 for a Senior capt
my guess a few very senior Capt's doing everything to protect their Tand C's and could care less of the anyone else.
We're not doing this to inprove our T & C's. QF haven't even wanted to discuss pay. We're taking this action to try and prevent a management, who couldn't care less about the long term survival of Qantas, taking our jobs and offshoring them to 3rd party crewing providers to the detriment of an Australia Icon and us as Australian Employees.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by balance
But their standard of training is WAY less than ours (I've attempted to train them - a difficult job which is why I say I've tried). Their cost of living is WAY less than ours. Their reputation is WAY less than ours. There is nothing racist in what I'm saying. It is fact. Don't like it? I really don't care.
Porch, my post was not meant to denigrate domestic F/O's in any way but to highlight that the QF S/O's are just as important (& skilled) as domestic F/O's. This comment - (& may even have better skills) - in my last post was a reflection of the lengthy recruiting process that QF had in place which theoretically should result in selection of the best applicants. As TG has stated, it's not a foolproof system.
I know of a number of pilots who couldn't accept the role of S/O and consequently did not apply for QF - preferring instead to take an F/O position with a LCC (possibly on a lower salary). The advantage of this route was the perception of a quick command (providing the airline keeps expanding). The downside is the possibility of remaining on the one aircraft type (flying the same route structure repeatedly) for the rest of their career with that company. It's an individual choice that has no connection with a pilots flying skills. I hope that those who have been derogatory of S/O's (or cruise F/O's as they are called in some airlines) on this forum re-evaluate their thoughts and treat their peers with the respect that they deserve.
I know of a number of pilots who couldn't accept the role of S/O and consequently did not apply for QF - preferring instead to take an F/O position with a LCC (possibly on a lower salary). The advantage of this route was the perception of a quick command (providing the airline keeps expanding). The downside is the possibility of remaining on the one aircraft type (flying the same route structure repeatedly) for the rest of their career with that company. It's an individual choice that has no connection with a pilots flying skills. I hope that those who have been derogatory of S/O's (or cruise F/O's as they are called in some airlines) on this forum re-evaluate their thoughts and treat their peers with the respect that they deserve.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Really? This is the message that is getting out. Really?
Surely someone at the union(s) can start getting a handle on this media business and start, well at least try and start directing the much needed media campaign.
THE MESSSAGE, apparently
Surely someone at the union(s) can start getting a handle on this media business and start, well at least try and start directing the much needed media campaign.
THE MESSSAGE, apparently