QF Pilots PIA
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Seriously, drop the staff travel claim. Focus on the job security claim because without job security there will be NO staff travel.
With job security, the next EBA can focus on staff travel. Its not like this is the last chance we have to fix the staff travel issues!!
We have been given stickers, lanyards, bag tags etc saying "secure our flying" not "improve staff travel".
I am passionate that this is what we need to do to make this a success, with staff travel claims in the negotiations, it will ALWAYS be about money when Qantas talk to the media. Lets see them grapple with the media and public opinion when what we want becomes, less than inflation pay rise and jobs to stay in Australia. There is no "greener grass" that the company can spin off. The travelling public wont want Bing Lee and Bok Choy up front.
With job security, the next EBA can focus on staff travel. Its not like this is the last chance we have to fix the staff travel issues!!
We have been given stickers, lanyards, bag tags etc saying "secure our flying" not "improve staff travel".
I am passionate that this is what we need to do to make this a success, with staff travel claims in the negotiations, it will ALWAYS be about money when Qantas talk to the media. Lets see them grapple with the media and public opinion when what we want becomes, less than inflation pay rise and jobs to stay in Australia. There is no "greener grass" that the company can spin off. The travelling public wont want Bing Lee and Bok Choy up front.
I say again the AIPA executive will do nothing.
Management Troll list so far: BIg Boeing Baby, Unionist (Onanist) 1974, Metro (or something else) smoker, TBM-Legend (d*ckhead), Jetstarpilot (or manager?) hcmcmcmcmcmcmcm clown (self-naming).
Feel free to add to the list boys and girls!
89% participation rate for 94% YES vote - I've seen nothing like this EVER from Qantas pilots. This should send a BIG message to the twerp and his henchmen that its GAME ON!!
Last edited by Shark Patrol; 11th Jul 2011 at 22:40.
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BBB, a couple of points to add a bit of sensibility to your posts (which wouldn't be hard):
The AIPA exec are constrained by the list of industrial action initiatives on the ballot. They're not about to barge headlong into multiple actions like a bull in a china shop. A little care, planning, and targetting of the action is required.
I'm certain too, that if they can use this overwhelming vote to get Qantas back to the negotiating table and seriously talking job security (which Qantas had no interest at all in discussing previously) and avoid industrial action all together, they will. That would be the sort of result which would be in the best interests of all parties, and the travelling public.
It's a pity it had to come to this. But Joyce and the Board have been sent a message which is so clear that even someone with the mental capacity of a spotted-newt could understand it.
The AIPA exec are constrained by the list of industrial action initiatives on the ballot. They're not about to barge headlong into multiple actions like a bull in a china shop. A little care, planning, and targetting of the action is required.
I'm certain too, that if they can use this overwhelming vote to get Qantas back to the negotiating table and seriously talking job security (which Qantas had no interest at all in discussing previously) and avoid industrial action all together, they will. That would be the sort of result which would be in the best interests of all parties, and the travelling public.
It's a pity it had to come to this. But Joyce and the Board have been sent a message which is so clear that even someone with the mental capacity of a spotted-newt could understand it.
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The message seems tighter - keep the focus on the offshore push but....
....link it to what this means to the Australian traveller. (ie WHY Australian passengers want to keep a Qantas pilot in cntrol of Qantas aircraft)
Here are the lines that I would be pushing in the AIPA interviews:
"While the flight crews from these overseas labour hire companies hold a pilots licence - there's no guarantee that their training and experience would allow them to perform as the Qantas pilots did during the QF32 A380 incident".
"Remember Alan Joyce told the Parliament that he saw no issue with Jetstar's decision to put low hour, inexperienced pilots in control of Jetstar aircraft"
"Alan Joyce and his management are only interested in slashing costs & sending Australian jobs offshore via third party companies"
"This is all about slashing jobs and undermining Australian standards. Remember these foreign companies that Alan Joyce wants to carry the Qantas brand could be subject to a lower level of scrutiny from Australian Safety Regulators - that's not good for Australian passengers"
"We are professional people. we would not be taking this action if we did not believe that there are real risks for Qantas passengers"
"Alan Joyce is effectively trying to sub-contract the Qantas brand to overseas companies - just like with the A380 engine issue - when things go wrong it was Alan Joyce and his management that claimed they did not know what was being done to Qantas planes by overseas maintenance contractors including Rolls Royce"
"Alan Joyce claims that the Qantas International brand is not making money but poor management decisions by him and his management have cost the airline millions of dollars [insert list] - all this waste has happened on his watch and while he's crying poor he's very quick to put his hand out for an $11m 'performance bonus' on top of his multi-million dollar salary"
Play professional and appear rational in order to push Joyce into a position to defend nothing but greed.
AT
....link it to what this means to the Australian traveller. (ie WHY Australian passengers want to keep a Qantas pilot in cntrol of Qantas aircraft)
Here are the lines that I would be pushing in the AIPA interviews:
"While the flight crews from these overseas labour hire companies hold a pilots licence - there's no guarantee that their training and experience would allow them to perform as the Qantas pilots did during the QF32 A380 incident".
"Remember Alan Joyce told the Parliament that he saw no issue with Jetstar's decision to put low hour, inexperienced pilots in control of Jetstar aircraft"
"Alan Joyce and his management are only interested in slashing costs & sending Australian jobs offshore via third party companies"
"This is all about slashing jobs and undermining Australian standards. Remember these foreign companies that Alan Joyce wants to carry the Qantas brand could be subject to a lower level of scrutiny from Australian Safety Regulators - that's not good for Australian passengers"
"We are professional people. we would not be taking this action if we did not believe that there are real risks for Qantas passengers"
"Alan Joyce is effectively trying to sub-contract the Qantas brand to overseas companies - just like with the A380 engine issue - when things go wrong it was Alan Joyce and his management that claimed they did not know what was being done to Qantas planes by overseas maintenance contractors including Rolls Royce"
"Alan Joyce claims that the Qantas International brand is not making money but poor management decisions by him and his management have cost the airline millions of dollars [insert list] - all this waste has happened on his watch and while he's crying poor he's very quick to put his hand out for an $11m 'performance bonus' on top of his multi-million dollar salary"
Play professional and appear rational in order to push Joyce into a position to defend nothing but greed.
AT
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This reply no 29 on this thread
Mike
QF Pilots Vote To Strike — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net
The real point is that the pilots CAN NOT win. End of story. If they push it to far they are committing suicide, job wise.
If FAA certified pilots are not already doing type training for QF I would be very surprised and would bet if they are not it is in the works. As I said in reply 1 QF knows exactly how to work the system to achieve their desired outcome and technical management and Alan Joyce certainly haven't forgotten the lesson of 1989 and 2002(3).
Gemuser
Mike
QF Pilots Vote To Strike — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net
The real point is that the pilots CAN NOT win. End of story. If they push it to far they are committing suicide, job wise.
If FAA certified pilots are not already doing type training for QF I would be very surprised and would bet if they are not it is in the works. As I said in reply 1 QF knows exactly how to work the system to achieve their desired outcome and technical management and Alan Joyce certainly haven't forgotten the lesson of 1989 and 2002(3).
Gemuser
Hear hear Dutch Roll and Airtags.
I may be a little hot headed about this, but I would love to see BJ mention AJ's pay increases when he is questioned ad infinitum about AIPA's mad 2.5% grab for cash.
There also needs to be a very good argument for the staff travel push. Everyone who has dealt with it personally understands what it is (the seats are EMPTY after all, or we just don't get on) but that is being distorted ridiculously by the lying toads who should know better.
I may be a little hot headed about this, but I would love to see BJ mention AJ's pay increases when he is questioned ad infinitum about AIPA's mad 2.5% grab for cash.
There also needs to be a very good argument for the staff travel push. Everyone who has dealt with it personally understands what it is (the seats are EMPTY after all, or we just don't get on) but that is being distorted ridiculously by the lying toads who should know better.
Apparently a good interview for the Qantas pilots on the George Negus show last night, with George highlighting in an interview that this is not about pay but about the careers of junior Qantas pilots. Didn't see it but it sounds like the message is finally starting to get across. Seat belt signs on..... this is going to be a rough ride!
If you guys don't drop every claim except the job security....you're stuffed.
Imagine AJ trying to explain how they can't reach an agreement with the pilots after they have just dropped all but one claim. It would certainly show the public you are serious about one thing and not just after a bit more cash in your pockets etc. Go for a zero wage increase, you might g backwards a bit for three years but not much,it's not like you're going to starve....if you are, sell your flat screen tv and buy a supply of potatoes to get you through winter.
In my opinion, as an observer, that is the only thing that might.....might swing this towards getting the board to act after AJ loses public favour, and getting the board to do something is the only way the plans in place might be changed a bit.
Imagine AJ trying to explain how they can't reach an agreement with the pilots after they have just dropped all but one claim. It would certainly show the public you are serious about one thing and not just after a bit more cash in your pockets etc. Go for a zero wage increase, you might g backwards a bit for three years but not much,it's not like you're going to starve....if you are, sell your flat screen tv and buy a supply of potatoes to get you through winter.
In my opinion, as an observer, that is the only thing that might.....might swing this towards getting the board to act after AJ loses public favour, and getting the board to do something is the only way the plans in place might be changed a bit.
MMciau,
After reading about the first ten responses on the website link you provided, I think you HAVE found the airline management chat site. I think their readership must, on average, be somewhere to the right of Atilla the Hun!!
After reading about the first ten responses on the website link you provided, I think you HAVE found the airline management chat site. I think their readership must, on average, be somewhere to the right of Atilla the Hun!!
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It's immediately obvious from the majority of the negative replies on that website, that the posters haven't got a clue what the "job security" clause is all about! Probably doesn't help that the majority of the posters live overseas, as well! 
I just went to that link and had a read as well SharkP.
One person said they have always believed that salaries should be "rational" the response by another poster was;
It made me think that the problem lies in the fact that the market place has changed, the QF longhaul salaries were rational in a market where the labour supply was limited to Australia. Now , (rightly or wrongly) it is not. The labour market has gone global. So in that respect, the QF pilots are not fighting their management, they are fighting legislation that has changed the limits of the labour market place.
Does that sound like a fair summary to anyone?
One person said they have always believed that salaries should be "rational" the response by another poster was;
Does that sound like a fair summary to anyone?
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Interesting the comment that 95% in favour of PIA is unheard off:
Rewind 2 years-
Australian ATC to strike
94.35%
Rewind 2 years-
Australian ATC to strike
94.35%
Donot drop any of your claims, including the staff travel, why would you?
Qantas management are playing a very dangerous game here. Virgin are introducing Business Class. If Qantas are out of the air for even ONE period of 48 hours it will be enough for some travel departments to move their accounts.
Go on AJ, time to put your nads on the line ole son. Time to find out who the softcocks are I say.
Go hard.
Airline warns pilots' demands threaten Jetstar | Geelong, VIC, Australia
Are they getting that desperate they need to spread lies about the claim ?
Strawman argument anyone ?
They are really very clever, much respect for their business expertise. Of course they won't be sending Qantas jobs offshore, they'll just be tripling the size of Jetstar whilst shrinking Qantas, leaving Qantas with the a380 and clapped out A330's only.
When the 787s arrive Qantas can finally get some modern, 'new' A330s, EBA, EBB etc, flogged out from years of Jetstar use to replace the 20 year old 767s, whilst Jetstar and Jetstar Indonesia, Jetstar Japan, Jetstar Vietnam, Jetstar Singapore, Jetstar Malaysia, Jetstar AirAsia, Jetstar Holdings Shelf Company Cayman Islands PTY LTD etc get 787s, but only if the pilot groups involved offer to pay for their ratings, pay for time in the right hand seat to get their 200 hours and become indentured slaves to the company.
Genius!
And of course Jetstar Everyone will be a >50% locally owned but totally funded from the unprofitable mainline back in the backwater of Australia.
Bonuses all round!
CHEAP Jetstar airfares out of Avalon Airport would be jeopardised if Qantas pilots pressed ahead with threats of industrial action, the discount carrier's parent company warned.
Qantas long-haul pilots yesterday voted to take protected industrial action against the airline for the first time in 45 years, as the company rejected union claims it was sending pilots' jobs offshore.
A Qantas spokesman said pilots' demands for more pay to operate Jetstar flights would make the discount carrier unviable, and push up fares.
Qantas long-haul pilots yesterday voted to take protected industrial action against the airline for the first time in 45 years, as the company rejected union claims it was sending pilots' jobs offshore.
A Qantas spokesman said pilots' demands for more pay to operate Jetstar flights would make the discount carrier unviable, and push up fares.
Strawman argument anyone ?
They are really very clever, much respect for their business expertise. Of course they won't be sending Qantas jobs offshore, they'll just be tripling the size of Jetstar whilst shrinking Qantas, leaving Qantas with the a380 and clapped out A330's only.
When the 787s arrive Qantas can finally get some modern, 'new' A330s, EBA, EBB etc, flogged out from years of Jetstar use to replace the 20 year old 767s, whilst Jetstar and Jetstar Indonesia, Jetstar Japan, Jetstar Vietnam, Jetstar Singapore, Jetstar Malaysia, Jetstar AirAsia, Jetstar Holdings Shelf Company Cayman Islands PTY LTD etc get 787s, but only if the pilot groups involved offer to pay for their ratings, pay for time in the right hand seat to get their 200 hours and become indentured slaves to the company.
Genius!
And of course Jetstar Everyone will be a >50% locally owned but totally funded from the unprofitable mainline back in the backwater of Australia.
Bonuses all round!
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Focus On Core Issue....Only!
How many times does it need to be said... this is not about pay and salaries... it is about ensuring Australian QANTAS pilots are part of the future at QANTAS.
If you guys don't drop every claim except the job security....you're stuffed.
Win this battle...and return to fight the other injustices (including staff travel inequities) of the war at a later time. If you don't win this impending battle there may not be a later war to fight.
PG
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quote:
"as the company rejected union claims it was sending pilots' jobs offshore."
from this statement there is now a trigger to challenge the company.
Question 1:
Given the statement above do you gaurantee that Australian pilot jobs will not be replaced by pilots employed through labour companies or other entities outside of Australia to operate Qantas aircraft?
and
Question 2:
Will you allocate any current routes operated with Australian aircraft and crew to Jetstar or any Jetstar franchise?
"as the company rejected union claims it was sending pilots' jobs offshore."
from this statement there is now a trigger to challenge the company.
Question 1:
Given the statement above do you gaurantee that Australian pilot jobs will not be replaced by pilots employed through labour companies or other entities outside of Australia to operate Qantas aircraft?
and
Question 2:
Will you allocate any current routes operated with Australian aircraft and crew to Jetstar or any Jetstar franchise?
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LOL. Do you guys really think the AIPA exec(A380 744 Captains) are about to risk their greedy little positions?
Please ask yourselves why we are in this position and who was on the AIPA COM when they sat back and allowed Jetstar to be created.
They know who they are and guess what they are still there! The only one that is not is RH but he aint going to retire cause we need his great experience.
Yep AIPA has wound you guys up but the exec will make sure they are fine.
Please ask yourselves why we are in this position and who was on the AIPA COM when they sat back and allowed Jetstar to be created.
They know who they are and guess what they are still there! The only one that is not is RH but he aint going to retire cause we need his great experience.
Yep AIPA has wound you guys up but the exec will make sure they are fine.
