mohikan

I read with dismay todays email from AIPA in relation to the latest JQ "claim" to allow foreign DEC's open slather to fly domestically in Aus.

Yet another move in the never ending war on pilots in this country.

The simple truth is however, that regardless of what Australian trained ATPL's are paid from this point onwards, airfares will not go down as a result.

Any further margin Bain & Co, BCG and Oldmeadow Consulting achieves for Qantas will not be passed on to the consumer. Instead it will end up as a component of remuneration for the QF senior executive group.

When external consultants are brought in with an 'alternate' business plan, they always present the outcomes in terms of the effect on KPI's for the existing management team. I have this direct from an acquaintance who works for Bain & Co.

Lets call a spade a spade though - whilst there are thousands of high quality contract airline pilots plying their trade worldwide, QF and JQ are targeting, through Parc Aviation, 2nd and 3rd world pilots who they can pay a minimum wage.

Given the recent events in India involving 'fake' Captains, and the generally low standards in eastern europe and the former CIS states where the QF group is currently actively recruiting, my message to the travelling public is this:

Given that your price point is not going to change, you should insist on an Australian trained and experienced ATPL at the controls of your JQ / QF jet.

Captain Dart

QF pilots allowed non-Australian trained pilots, 'invited' into the country, onto their seniority list when Australian Airlines was absorbed after 'that year'.

'It's been done'.

Captain Dart

I didn't say that they could, Mohikan, let's have a little less name-calling and a bit more proper reading. What I said was, they happily allowed them onto their seniority list after the domestic airline was absorbed by QF.

So there is no point whingeing about foreign-trained pilots in the QANTAS group.

Zapatas Blood

“..allow foreign DEC's open slather to fly domestically in Aus.”

The PARC recruitment is for pilots to be employed by a Singaporean company to fly SIN registered aircraft with SIN licenses.

Can current legislation permit foreign airlines to fly domestic operations within Australia in foreign registered aircraft?

“generally low standards in eastern Europe”

Really. Do you have any data to back up this claim?

maui

Mohikan.

Would you please explain what you mean what you use the abreviation DEC. It is my understanding that DEC has a meaning of Direct Entry Captain, and is referred to in the context of entry into a company in a manner that bypasses seniority.

Maui

mohikan

Maui.

DEC = Direct Entry Captain. See below from AIPA from a meeting on 9 June between JQ and AIPA over the employment of pilots outside the JQ EBA:

"At this meeting, AIPA sought a commitment from the Company that it would not employ these Cadets and First Officers outside of the EBA. Unfortunately, the Company did not provide any such commitment. Instead, the Company demanded “flexibilities” which included:

• the ability to integrate overseas Captains into the Jetstar seniority list where vacancies are created by existing Captains leaving;
• the ability to import pilots from overseas and roster them to work within Jetstar to address seasonal fluctuations in demands; and
• the ability to impose bond requirements on Cadets which are more onerous than those set out in the EBA."

maui

Mohikan

Thanks for that. An utter disgrace!!!

What about immigration laws. Do we have any?

Disregrding the seniority aspects, surely any such Capt. would need to have the right to work in Australia, ie be Aus born or hold an Aus passport, or suitable work visa.

Maui

ejectx3

Aside from the fact we have a surplus of hundreds of pilots in mainline all begging to work, whilst our esteemed leaders now want to import foreign labour.

ENOUGH! VOTE YES AND LET"S GET RID OF THESE ASS CLOWNS!

Al Goreng

Now now, don't be selfish. You had flown in kimchiland depriving the Korean wannabes of their rightful place on th big shiny jets; so let's be gracious and open up Big OZ to all. Casa should allow all bona fide ICAO licence holders with the right bona fide experience to fly on validified certificates. It's a global village now, otherwise big oz is gonna be a sorry piece of pancake at the arse end of the globe!

M14_P

Ahh so thats why Jetstar are a monumental bunch of amateurs, now it all makes sense.
Compared to AirNZ, they are actually utter rubbish, I am happier paying a 30% higher ticket price. Because it means:
A I get great service
B Get there on time, every time
C Did I mention great service both at the airport and during the flight?

M14_P

I feel sorry for you guys, it appears Oz is dividing itself up and raping it's own people for the foreign flavour, much as the US has done. Don't worry, it is only a matter of time before our government in NZ decide it's time to kiss some US ass some more and copy their every move to do the same....

Lord Spandex Masher

I've flown with half a dozen Aussies here in the UK, 4 of which were DEC's. Is that ok?

blueloo

Yeah....someone has to show you guys how to fly

Lord Spandex Masher

Well in that case I'm now well qualified to come and fly in Oz then

27/09

Fair call to some extent, though, correct me if I'm wrong, the DEC's in Europe are most likely because there were not enough local candidates.

Down here there is no such shortage of suitably qualified candidates. This is just a blatant effort to drive down terms and conditions particularly for the FO's. If they are looking at bring in DEC's as has been described it would seem that the FO's are not going to get the chance to upgrade. The FO's are going to be kept as bonded servants or slaves. Once one operator starts this cr*p others are likely to follow suit.

Lord Spandex Masher

Not necessarily. The DEC's, I believe, were employed on temporary contracts through an agency that were unavailable to current employees.

It was a kind of stop gap measure supposedly for a number of months, due to a short term captain shortage, but they transferred on to full time contracts at the end of the initial contract period.

There were plenty of experienced FOs ready for command but the company weren't prepare to promote them on the basis of a temporary requirement.

I was one of the FOs ready and waiting.

Not saying I agree with it or the situation down under just that it happens everywhere, always has and always will.

Stalins ugly Brother

It does happen in a lot of places. Doesn't make it right though.
DEC is a tool used by companies to save money and divide their staff, end of story.

maui

Al Goering
Perhaps it would have been better put if I had prefaced what I said with “Where there are suitably qualified local pilots available”

DEC’s are not necessarily a bad thing. In situations where there are not enough suitably qualified persons available, the import of DEC’s can facilitate a more rapid expansion of an organisation, increasing the promotional opportunities of those still coming up through the system. So that by the time they have the required qualification, background and experience, there is a position for them. Something that may not have occured had the DEC not facilitated the company's growth or survival.

Similarly DEC's can be used to release personnel from one type to facilitate the introduction of another type, and consequent expansion of an organisation, resulting in a net increase in positions for locals. Have been in that situation, where it was controlled on a month by month basis, by the local union.


DEC’s are generally not a cheaper option, and it is not unheard of that DEC terms have been used as a lever in arguments to boost local salaries.

DEC’s can be used to overcome regulatory hurdles, once again leading to expansion and increased opportunities for those to follow.

I re-iterate; DEC’s should not be allowed where there is an availability of suitably qualified personnel.


QANTAS group tactics to downgrade their local numbers by use of cheaper imports is a disgrace. If the QANTAS group feel that their cost structure is inappropriate, firstly, it is of their making, there is nothing in the various agreements that management haven’t signed off on. The time to oppose conditions deemed to be inappropriate, is at the time that they are sought. It's called negotiation. Secondly there are mechanisms for them to negotiate what they believe to be a fair and equitable reward. The problem with that is that they will have to justify their claims of untenable costs.


With respect to Australians and New Zealanders securing positions in UK; they do that by birthright. They can only do it by virtue of “RIGHT of abode”. Maybe if the poms hadn’t been so hasty in sending us in ships to the furthest ends of the earth, we wouldn’t be having that discussion.

Maui