Hungry Beast

[TeHoroto]

So to get this straight are you guys saying that the Jetconnect pilots are less competent, and therefore less safe than mainline pilots, or, that they earn 40 percent less than mainline pilots mainly because of the exchange rates of the two currencies?

[RATpin]

Relax Bro,their just lashing out due to the current environment.
Chickens,Roost Etc.

[standard]

Plane Talking

The Hungry Beast’s Jitcunnickt satirical summary of the not Qantas, fully independent, falsely labelled ‘Spirit of Australia‘ Jetconnect full service trans Tasman operation has hit some raw nerves.

This is a response from the other side of the Tasman, and it lays a few punches that are factually correct to the best of my knowledge.

I am getting totally p*ssed off with all of the bull**** and lies that are being spread by the Unions and, in particular do find the piss take that was on ABC particularly offensive. It is typical of the bullying tactics and attitudes that the Australian Unions and some Australians unfortunately have towards their Kiwi brothers, an attitude that I find very disappointing because as you know I have worked for Australian Companies most of my working life and have very, very close friends who are Australian.(ie such as you) The truth be known I would have probably chosen to live and work there after PNG had in not been for Cathy’s desire to stay in NZ. As far as Jet Connect is concerned here are a few facts which the Union is not publicising. When the Company started in September 2002, as you know it was just a domestic operation in NZ operating under the Qantas brand. The Pilots at that time approached the Australian Qantas Pilots Union and asked them to represent us because we felt that the NZALPA was basically just for the Air NZ Pilots and would not represent us properly. The reply from the Australian Union was basically they were not interested and for us to take a flying jump, end of story. Well we beavered away and gradually got enough Pilots in the Company into the Union, however unfortunately at that time the Management of the Company was pretty atrocious and things were not going too well, with Pilots leaving and morale in general down in the dumps. At that stage Qantas Australia sent 2 high powered guys over from Australia, they sacked the NZ CEO and the Flight Ops Manager and replaced them with these 2 guys. I am convinced that the brief given to these 2 was to take a close look at the operation and see whether it was worth saving or just shutting it down. Well the rest is history, they were only here for just over 2 years, the decision was made to continue on, new 737-800 NG’s were assigned for Jet Connect and when Jet Star started the domestic operation in NZ our role changed to the Tasman operation.

I hasten to add that at the time John Borghetti was still very much involved in Qantas and he in fact was in charge of the Jet Connect side of things so he saw the value of the operation, which of course he is continuing with the NZ Pacific blue operation in Virgin which is operated by NZ crews and on a worse contract than what we are on, and who are now flying most of the duties from Australian ports. (I do not see this being publicised or bitched and moaned about by the unions) With the arrival of these 2 guys we managed to negotiate a reasonable contract with the Company and I can tell you even though we are being paid less than the Australian Pilots we are on a par with the likes of Air NZ an in fact our Company is seen by young Kiwis as the Company to be employed by and a job as a Pilot with us is well sort after, so we are pretty well looked after. After a couple of years the Australian Management team went back to be replaced by a NZ Flight Ops Manager and another Australian as CEO. Since then we have not looked back, the new aircraft make up 95% of the fleet, morale is very high and you have a bunch of Kiwi’s working their arses off ensuring the Qantas brand is name is maintained to a high standard and that if possible a preferred choice when it comes to Tasman travel. The comment about the Pilots not being Qantas Pilots really does piss me off big time. You have not got a bunch of amatures flying the aircraft but a group of highly experienced Professional Pilots. We are operating the aircraft under the Qantas standard operation proceedures and our whole operation is run as Qantas operate.

Our checks in the Sim are exactly the same as any Pilot in the Qantas Group has. I for one have over 19000 hours flying experience and there are a number of our Pilots who have even more flight time than that and there would not be too many Pilots in the Qantas International Operation with that amount of flight experience. As far as the argument that we are taking Australian jobs is concerned this has got to be the biggest load of bull**** that has ever been spread.

There has not been one redundancy within the group since we arrived and it can be safely said that Qantas would most probably not have had a presence on the Tasman had in not been for us and out lower operating costs so we have not taken any jobs whatsoever. The likes of Emirates, Lan Chile, China Air etc have made the Tasman extremely competitive so it would seem to me that the Company had to get some reduction in costs in order to be able to compete. Once again another falsehood by the ABC snippet that the Company does not pass on the savings made by lower operating costs, because our fares are similar, if not better than others. We have a good load factor for the Tasman operation and all in all I know that the Group Management are very pleased with the way things are going.

Enough of the rant but there is a lot of crap being spread out there and I trust that this will in a way counter some of the half truths and lies that have been uttered. You have a group of hard working, good Kiwis operating the Qantas brand on the Tasman and they are certainly not letting the side down at all which is a lot more than can be said for some people on the other side of the ditch.

Whoever wrote this is an idiot!.. 19000 hours and prostituting yourself for your own self gratification!!... get a life!

You have taken Qantas Jobs! and you are NOT a Qantas pilot!

If you want to be a Qantas pilot apply!..., please don't self proclaim yourself as the Qantas prophecy over the Tasman!, you are merely an industrial tool!!

And if i didn't say it already... an idiot!!!!

[Anthill]

Standard,

Whilst I think that many would recognise that QF pilots are disappointed that the company has moved many jobs off shore, it would be prudent to consider the implications of your post above. Your employer has set up another company in New Zealand and offered pilots employment outside of your system. For you to then assert that these Jetconnect pilots are somehow Qantas 'wannabees' defies comprehension.

Jetconnect pilots have been instructed by their employer to wear a uniform indentical to yours and fly an aircraft painted in QF colours. This is a sham perpetuated by the company and not the staff. To assert that they have "stolen" Qantas jobs is not only divisive but is plain wrong. Jetconnect has lawfully offered employment to these poeple under local terms and, like it or not, they every moral and legal right to their jobs. They have an equal right to persue a career in their choosen profession just as you do.

Your attitude will only serve to alienate the pilots at Jetconnect. The implications of your post are that you see Jetconnect pilots as an enemy who has usurped your God-given position as some sort of Lord Of The Sky. I summise that your intention would be to have them removed from the industry so that you can have some progression. Do you think that they will support you after this? I for one am re-assessing my support for the QF pilots, if this is their prevaling attitude

[FlareArmed]

Jetconnect is part of the divide and conquer strategy: QF could have chosen to keep one pilot group with international basings, but that would mean negotiating with one union – too big a stick.

In early days, the Jetconnect pilots (mostly ex Ansett Australia) asked AIPA to represent them; they saw the writing on the wall. AIPA dismissed them with barely a thought; in fact, they stopped them wearing Qantas hats because they weren't real Qantas pilots.

Wisdom and foresight by past AIPA leaders could have staved off some unpleasant realities now.

[noip]

Could AIPA have legally represented the Jetconnect pilots? I'm not sure they could have.

N

[FlareArmed]

Could AIPA have legally represented the Jetconnect pilots?

That's a good point.

I believe the letter to AIPA proposed cooperation: perhaps represent was not the right word. Either way, the NZ based pilots got a terse reply from the AIPA President at the time.

I know it's Pandora's Box in comparison, but are the Cathay pilots at the different bases outside HK covered by the same association?

[Fruet Mich]

Either way it's incredibly stressful on both sides of the Tasman, Qantas or Jetconnect. There are some very strong emotions coming through here. The very sad thing is that it is commonly quoted that Jetconnect are taking flying off mainline. This is indeed very true, but isn't this the same with Jetstar taking mainline routes? Aren't these guys in the sane union?

Unfortunately across all industries in NZ, pay levels are all around 40% lower than that of Australia. The Mexico of the pacific. It's unfortunate that all Australian companies can see the advantage, Virgin and Jetstar NZ are indeed in this basket.

The angry chaps on this site that continually slag the likes of Jetconnect etc should be putting more time and effort into getting their union to set up a ghost seniority system to give them an opportunity to progress into a command within a "group" airline rather than trying to get rid of them.
Because this management group will not reinstate the old legacy Qantas back
onto the route but rather expand the Jetstar product with a "operated by
Jetstar" sticker on the side instead of "operated by Jetconnect"

[aussie_herb]

" The Jetconnect pilots received a terse reply from the then AIPA president " Oh really would love to see a copy . The fact of the matter was there was a perfectly good NZ pliots association and AIPA had no legal coverage of NZ pilots at all. They also would have seriously alienated the NZALPA by attempting to poach pilots from their backyard .Qantas pilots are upset because 737 pilots and 767 pilots are sitting on assigned leave and are currently being demoted to lower ranks and pay because of the establishment of Jetconnect . Mr 19000 hours ...( I only have 14000 and am an FO with 16 years service in Qantas so what would I know) hangs his hat on his experience , sadly those hours haven't gifted him much wisdom . If he joined Qantas in 2002 he would be a second officer . Mainly because he would have seen all of his career advancement farmed out to outfits like the one he is now in . The argument isnt with him it is with a short sighted qantas management who hate Australia and the industrial system we have to assure a reasonable standard of living in this country .

[rmcdonal]

If he joined Qantas in 2002 he would be a second officer

And probably earning more than he is now.

[Nuthinondaclock]

A myth

they (AIPA) stopped them wearing Qantas hats because they weren't real Qantas pilots.

This makes a a good throw away line portraying QF pilots as vain but there is no possible way that Qantas pilots could ever dictate the uniform of another Airline. Think about it for a second. It's just rubbish.

It's like one of those statements added to the end of an urban myth to 'prove' the story.

"And after the dogfood was removed she moved interstate and was never heard from again!"

[PPRuNeUser0161]

From an outsiders point of view the Jetconnect pilots, and any other second tear pilots for that matter, have every right to the jobs they have. When a new airline recruits a pilot base there is not the numbers nor the unity to bargain for QF mainline type T & C's. That would have had to have come from the QF mainline pilots at the time. Now its too late.

The jobs were there, they had bills to pay and family to support, and that's that. Its no good dumping on them. The fact is they are helping to keep the whole show somewhere near viable and therefore should be congratulated. The off-shoring of labour has been going on for years and if we stop business from doing it they'll eventually get eaten up. If you want it run by the pilots for the pilots then get together and buy it out. On the other hand you've got your job's now and you'll be OK so ride the wave. Tomorrow the surf will be lower!
SN

[noip]

SN,

Your post, though heartfelt obviously, demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the issues involved, and is erroneous in so many "facts", it bewilders me.

And no, I don't feel like going over it to correct you, since it is obvious you wouldn't believe me anyway.

N

[404 Titan]

FlareArmed

I know it's Pandora's Box in comparison, but are the Cathay pilots at the different bases outside HK covered by the same association?

CX pilots based in bases that aren’t yet on-shored are represented by HKAOA. Those based in Australia and Canada where the bases have been on-shored are represented by affiliated unions of HKAOA, i.e. AOA Australia and AOA Canada.

Onshore = wholly owned company of CX registered in the country of the based crew.

[FlareArmed]

This part of the rant is documented:

The Pilots at that time approached the Australian Qantas Pilots Union and asked them to represent us because we felt that the NZALPA was basically just for the Air NZ Pilots and would not represent us properly. The reply from the Australian Union was basically they were not interested and for us to take a flying jump, end of story.

The "hat" anecdote I mentioned, is also true (AIPA pressured Flight Department management); it shows the attitude of AIPA at the time – petty. But, AIPA of then was different from now – it had tunnel vision and a superiority complex: the blinkers are now off.

The facts in the rant are on the money; the ethical dilemma is another story. Whether engineered or stumbled on, the Jetconnect strategy divides Qantas group pilots – both are claiming the moral high-ground for different reasons. The company will try and widen the divide; only the QF (paid) pilots cooperating will narrow it.

['holic]

The "hat" anecdote I mentioned, is also true (AIPA pressured Flight Department management); it shows the attitude of AIPA at the time – petty.

How exactly did AIPA pressure your Flight Dept management .... in an outside company ..... outside a bargaining period ....... in another country ........ about hats? What was AIPA going to do if management didn't give in?

While you're at it, let us know where we can find the documents that back up your rant.

[FlareArmed]

It's not my rant: my sources were in JetConnect when the letters were written (ex-Ansett 737 blokes wanting to pay some bills). They told me about the letter, the response, and the childish "hat" attitude over a cuppla beers. Go and ask the AIPA President at the time – I'm told by QF mates, you will have little trouble believing the ranter if you do.

I don't agree with the ethics of the outsourcing/QF spin (lies) situation, but you can't blame the Kiwi ranter for wanting to balance the satire with a bit of background – albeit, probably over one too-many wines.

The point is, that AIPA did indeed fob them off in the early days; there's no point denying it. Just understand it pissed them off, and that it's relevant before you open fire. You might adjust your aim a little if you know some of the history.

['holic]

Whilst I agree that hats have always been very high on the agenda (let's face it, it's an issue that's right up there with black socks ...... those Jetconnect guys aren't wearing black socks are they? We may have to take legal action) I find it hard to believe Jetconnect management would have done anything except laugh in AIPA's face, let alone agree to their demands.

Add that to your "documented" evidence being a letter you were told about in bar and you can see why I might be a little bit sceptical.

The problem is urban myths like this get spread around and the next thing you know blokes are saying "AIPA did this back then, so that now justifies me screwing you over". You see it on here all the time. Apparently it helps them sleep at night.

Anyway, I'm not sure why any of the Jetconnect guys should be ranting. If someone was using their money and their time in a court case to get me a 40% payrise, I'd be wearing whatever the fcuk hat they wanted me to.

[FlareArmed]

I'm quite certain those things happened; it was pretty much first-hand information from those in the thick of it at the time. The blokes I knew there have left, but not before the make-over that turned it into a good mob to work for – the key was getting rid of a certain senior manager (sound familiar?)

From what I've seen, almost all the Jetconnect pilots are laying pretty low over the court action; it could go either way, and the consequences are unknown. They know the situation they are in, but they didn't bring it on themselves – they were recruited into a domestic operation; it was bigger forces that took them 100% Trans-Tasman. My point in backing up the ranter with a bit of inside knowledge from the past, is to add another piece to the puzzle so you guys in the thick of battle can make more reasoned judgements and point the guns in the right direction.

My closest friends are in Qantas, both short-haul and long-haul (that's why I follow the issues so closely); I am as aghast as anyone of the direction things are going, but there's no point making irrational allegations based on misinformation or half the information. I know (although I can't prove it to you in the way you seem to need) the ranter is not telling fibs.

[whatever6719]

Does anyone out there know when the decision in Fair Work Australia is going to be announced?? Its been going on for ages!!