Legalities of Pilot Strike Breakers
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How's this for a scenario;
- Strike goes ahead (if I'm not mistaken - on the basis of QF management refusing to acknowledge guarantee of job security).
- QF group immediately approves contingency plans to train as many Airbus-qualified pilots onto the QF group widebody aircraft.
- JQ pilots are the most Airbus-qualified pilots in the group (by Airbus hours flown).
- QF A330 management and JQ widebody management/check pilots immediately commence CCQ on A380.
- The most experienced JQ narrowbody pilots immediately commence CCQ onto the A330.
- Within weeks, all QF Airbus widebody aircraft are up and flying again.
- QF group downside is that the JQ network is adversely affected (but since - as has been accepted by most on this forum - it is low yield, it's considered acceptable collateral damage).
- QF-Group management instigate fleet retirement of entire B767 and older B744. Suitable (domestic) replacements available with (hastily) re-configured JQ A321 and A320.
- Within a relatively short time, most high-yield domestic ops resumed to near pre-strike levels.
- QF management then read the riot act to all pilots still on strike; return on JQ-type conditions, or dont return at all. As PIA in effect, QF wind up the operational entitiy/entities of QF longhaul, and start shelf company that employs pilots to crew QF longhaul.
I dont know if any or all of the above can be done - but I bet that QF management will move mountains to make something like it possible. Ever since JQ was started, the industrial writing for longhaul (and to a lesser extent, shorthaul) has been on the wall! And now that the non-QF low-cost element of Oz aviation has been reduced to just Tiger (at this point in time, no great threat), the full-service, high-yield element has to be protected at ALL costs.
You guys are playing into managements hands by going down this path: by demanding 'job security' you have given them the issue they wanted to send the pilots down the PIA road. and as shorthaul will still be merrily plying the skies, what message will this be sending the public? What harmony will this encourage among all pilots employed by QF (considering that 'old' longhaulers are now on the shorthaul award and vice versa)?
And all for such a tenuous concept as 'job security'! You will NEVER win this one, because in the modern aviation world, it doesn't exist. And there-in lies the crux of the whole schebang - this is old-world thinking and acting when the modern one has moved so very far.
I think you're mad to be undertaking this action, but I know that my two bobs-worth won't count for a cracker.
I was once told by a grey-haired, grizzled old-timer, "I can't believe you couldn't see this happening! It was so obvious to us". He was referring to the Ansett collapse.
I hope to God that I never smugly, arrogantly, and so very insensitively, find myself in the position where I have to say the same to friends at longhaul.
Think carefully.
Good luck to every individual in making the decision you ultimately make.
- Strike goes ahead (if I'm not mistaken - on the basis of QF management refusing to acknowledge guarantee of job security).
- QF group immediately approves contingency plans to train as many Airbus-qualified pilots onto the QF group widebody aircraft.
- JQ pilots are the most Airbus-qualified pilots in the group (by Airbus hours flown).
- QF A330 management and JQ widebody management/check pilots immediately commence CCQ on A380.
- The most experienced JQ narrowbody pilots immediately commence CCQ onto the A330.
- Within weeks, all QF Airbus widebody aircraft are up and flying again.
- QF group downside is that the JQ network is adversely affected (but since - as has been accepted by most on this forum - it is low yield, it's considered acceptable collateral damage).
- QF-Group management instigate fleet retirement of entire B767 and older B744. Suitable (domestic) replacements available with (hastily) re-configured JQ A321 and A320.
- Within a relatively short time, most high-yield domestic ops resumed to near pre-strike levels.
- QF management then read the riot act to all pilots still on strike; return on JQ-type conditions, or dont return at all. As PIA in effect, QF wind up the operational entitiy/entities of QF longhaul, and start shelf company that employs pilots to crew QF longhaul.
I dont know if any or all of the above can be done - but I bet that QF management will move mountains to make something like it possible. Ever since JQ was started, the industrial writing for longhaul (and to a lesser extent, shorthaul) has been on the wall! And now that the non-QF low-cost element of Oz aviation has been reduced to just Tiger (at this point in time, no great threat), the full-service, high-yield element has to be protected at ALL costs.
You guys are playing into managements hands by going down this path: by demanding 'job security' you have given them the issue they wanted to send the pilots down the PIA road. and as shorthaul will still be merrily plying the skies, what message will this be sending the public? What harmony will this encourage among all pilots employed by QF (considering that 'old' longhaulers are now on the shorthaul award and vice versa)?
And all for such a tenuous concept as 'job security'! You will NEVER win this one, because in the modern aviation world, it doesn't exist. And there-in lies the crux of the whole schebang - this is old-world thinking and acting when the modern one has moved so very far.
I think you're mad to be undertaking this action, but I know that my two bobs-worth won't count for a cracker.
I was once told by a grey-haired, grizzled old-timer, "I can't believe you couldn't see this happening! It was so obvious to us". He was referring to the Ansett collapse.
I hope to God that I never smugly, arrogantly, and so very insensitively, find myself in the position where I have to say the same to friends at longhaul.
Think carefully.
Good luck to every individual in making the decision you ultimately make.
There are so many holes in the scenario posted above that I don't know where to start.
All I will say is; if you never stand up and fight for what you want/need/deserve then you are never going to get it.
Doing nothing and trying to avoid making waves at this juncture in aviation in Australia will achieve NOTHING!
All I will say is; if you never stand up and fight for what you want/need/deserve then you are never going to get it.
Doing nothing and trying to avoid making waves at this juncture in aviation in Australia will achieve NOTHING!
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RadAltAlive- Here is a little scenario for you. Many airlines around the world have a scope clause. That means they stay relevant because it is in a contract and you can't get f%$#%^ over.
If you think that without a scope clause suddenly pilots will keep their jobs and promotions will continue to appear, then i believe you are dreaming.
Efficiencies will be given/negotiated but you don't give them away for nothing, unless you are an idiot.The negotiators are not naive to the pressures facing Qantas. They realise pilots need to offer efficiencies.Qantas pilots need to be brought along for the ride however.
A scope clause was offered in EBA8. So why not now? I'll tell you why, because they are planning to shut out mainline pilots from any future jobs/growth.
If you thought Jetstar was a threat to Qantas flying then watch what happens when Qantas Asia starts expanding with no Qantas pilots at the helm. Or jetconnect get long range aircraft and take senior flying to the USA.
If pilots do not act now they won't have a job/future career anyway. It's not rocket science.
If the company had any genuine intention to include the pilots in future growth they would spell out their plans and say this is what price we need from you in order to get scope. Newsflash! They are not interested!
Look at how efficient Jetstar pilots are compared to Southwest e.t.c and they are getting undercut by non EBA pilots in both Australia and Singapore. A big F%$#% you to the wonder workforce.
Non EBA 200 hour cadet pilots on $35,000 a year with a $200,000 debt!!!! And you are questioning the need for scope?
Qantas have a proven track record. No matter what you do, we will undercut you and offshore pilot jobs. A scope clause would stop this.
1. AIPA played nice guy after September 11 with a pay freeze.100% appropriate.
The reward, no consultation or even a chance to bid for the flying at a rate required by the company at the start up of Jetstar. Result we lost growth and promotions for junior pilots.Leave was assigned in QF when there was a pilot shortage at JQ
2.Qantas told pilots it would only fly JQ domestically with 23 aircraft and not take a Qantas route. Lie number two. Have you flown to the Gold Coast lately on Qantas Rad Alt?
3.Qantas told crews there would be no Jetstar International. Lie number 3. Jetstar did fly internationally and took Qantas routes/growth.
4.Started Jetconnect. Qantas painted 737's and flew them without 737 short haul pilots. No consultation on bidding for the flying.
5.Stated in a letter from the CEO that all Qantas F/O's and S/O's would have a promotion in 5 years. In the recent reduction in numbers many F/O's have accepted demotions to S/O.
6.Asked pilots/AIPA for 8 million in savings or else pilots would be sacked. Many pilots took half pay lines and within months Dixon was paid $12,000,000 for six months work. SHAREHOLDERS voted overwhelmingly against the pay deal but were ignored by the board as it was non binding.
7.Started to employ pilots in Singapore and Australia on non Jetstar Australia EBA terms and conditions
8.The chief pilot states that any scope clause will lead to sackings at Cobham whilst ignoring his own pilots
No pilot wants to have to take drastic action. Qantas have lost the ear of what was their most supportive long term workforce. Backed into a corner you have to fight to survive. It's put up or shut up time.
The next chapter can read we negotiated/fought for a future career in Qantas or we did nothing and watched our careers evaporate.
90 years of safety and experience slowly left to die via reduction in numbers. I believe we owe it to the Qantas pilots of the future just as those fought hard in 66 to give us what we have today. This is not about pay but about the future of Qantas Pilots and the profession.
There are risks and costs to action. But they are far less than the long range risks of comfortable inaction.
John F. Kennedy
If you think that without a scope clause suddenly pilots will keep their jobs and promotions will continue to appear, then i believe you are dreaming.
Efficiencies will be given/negotiated but you don't give them away for nothing, unless you are an idiot.The negotiators are not naive to the pressures facing Qantas. They realise pilots need to offer efficiencies.Qantas pilots need to be brought along for the ride however.
A scope clause was offered in EBA8. So why not now? I'll tell you why, because they are planning to shut out mainline pilots from any future jobs/growth.
If you thought Jetstar was a threat to Qantas flying then watch what happens when Qantas Asia starts expanding with no Qantas pilots at the helm. Or jetconnect get long range aircraft and take senior flying to the USA.
If pilots do not act now they won't have a job/future career anyway. It's not rocket science.
If the company had any genuine intention to include the pilots in future growth they would spell out their plans and say this is what price we need from you in order to get scope. Newsflash! They are not interested!
Look at how efficient Jetstar pilots are compared to Southwest e.t.c and they are getting undercut by non EBA pilots in both Australia and Singapore. A big F%$#% you to the wonder workforce.
Non EBA 200 hour cadet pilots on $35,000 a year with a $200,000 debt!!!! And you are questioning the need for scope?
Qantas have a proven track record. No matter what you do, we will undercut you and offshore pilot jobs. A scope clause would stop this.
1. AIPA played nice guy after September 11 with a pay freeze.100% appropriate.
The reward, no consultation or even a chance to bid for the flying at a rate required by the company at the start up of Jetstar. Result we lost growth and promotions for junior pilots.Leave was assigned in QF when there was a pilot shortage at JQ
2.Qantas told pilots it would only fly JQ domestically with 23 aircraft and not take a Qantas route. Lie number two. Have you flown to the Gold Coast lately on Qantas Rad Alt?
3.Qantas told crews there would be no Jetstar International. Lie number 3. Jetstar did fly internationally and took Qantas routes/growth.
4.Started Jetconnect. Qantas painted 737's and flew them without 737 short haul pilots. No consultation on bidding for the flying.
5.Stated in a letter from the CEO that all Qantas F/O's and S/O's would have a promotion in 5 years. In the recent reduction in numbers many F/O's have accepted demotions to S/O.
6.Asked pilots/AIPA for 8 million in savings or else pilots would be sacked. Many pilots took half pay lines and within months Dixon was paid $12,000,000 for six months work. SHAREHOLDERS voted overwhelmingly against the pay deal but were ignored by the board as it was non binding.
7.Started to employ pilots in Singapore and Australia on non Jetstar Australia EBA terms and conditions
8.The chief pilot states that any scope clause will lead to sackings at Cobham whilst ignoring his own pilots
No pilot wants to have to take drastic action. Qantas have lost the ear of what was their most supportive long term workforce. Backed into a corner you have to fight to survive. It's put up or shut up time.
The next chapter can read we negotiated/fought for a future career in Qantas or we did nothing and watched our careers evaporate.
90 years of safety and experience slowly left to die via reduction in numbers. I believe we owe it to the Qantas pilots of the future just as those fought hard in 66 to give us what we have today. This is not about pay but about the future of Qantas Pilots and the profession.
There are risks and costs to action. But they are far less than the long range risks of comfortable inaction.
John F. Kennedy
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"AIPA is going for less than inflation."
Dont get fooled into thinking that only one side of this confrontation is "going for" something.
QF are looking at re inventing the entire employment practice for pilots.
Do you really want to give them the opportunity?
Dont get fooled into thinking that only one side of this confrontation is "going for" something.
QF are looking at re inventing the entire employment practice for pilots.
Do you really want to give them the opportunity?
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Teresa - You keep telling Qantas pilots what they shouldn't do, but you can't offer any advice on what they should do to try and protect flying on future Qantas aircraft such as B787. Lets face that's what this is all about - Are Qantas pilots going to get to fly B787 in Qantas livery?
Your Longhaul bretherin will be taking the pain, finacially and mentally, to secure ALL futures in QF mainline.
We want to make sure that the shorthaul operations isn't the last part of qantas to be crewed by australian pilots!
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As far as paying their staff peanuts, or offshoring all jobs to foreigners, If qantas can get away with it, they will do it.
It is up to the staff now to say enough is enough.
It is up to the staff now to say enough is enough.
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How can I tell QF pilots what to do mate. How do you know which way QF is going to jump. The way I see it you blokes are caught between a rock and a hard place. Doomed if you do, and doomed if you dont. The world of aviation has changed, as you well know, you are dealing with a company who has eyes only for the shareholder, you are nothing more now than a staff number, and if I were a young pilot looking for a career now, I would suggest to them they look for a airline that is managed well, with a good CEO, and the only airline in Australia at the moment with that is Virgin. TE is a perfect example of a good airline, happy staff, well run, progressive, so it can be achieved. QF desperately needs a good boss, Borgetti should never been allowed to go, and the QF board should be shafted for that. QF has basically been destroyed by Dixon and now Joyce, and so mate, my advice is to look after nbr one, thats all you can do, and hope that QF finds it way back onto straight and level at some stage.
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my advice is to look after nbr one, thats all you can do, and hope that QF finds it way back onto straight and level at some stage.
Oh guys and btw....this is NOT a LH vs. SH and who is taking the pain more....this is about all of OUR jobs in this airline. We have got to stick together and support each other.
What a great pity that the then QF people chose NOT to support the AFAP people in 89/90. That probably was the only chance to stop/slow the Industrial rot for the airlines.
Guess it's a case now of reap what you sow ?
Guess it's a case now of reap what you sow ?
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".....do to try and protect flying on future Qantas aircraft such as B787. Lets face that's what this is all about - Are Qantas pilots going to get to fly B787 in Qantas livery?"
QF pilots have no legal entitlement to fly the 787 or even any current fleet type. If QF chose to operate the 787 under a different banner with contract crew then QF pilots have no avenue of complaint.
QF pilots have no legal entitlement to fly the 787 or even any current fleet type. If QF chose to operate the 787 under a different banner with contract crew then QF pilots have no avenue of complaint.
As said previously RAD ALT ALIVE so many holes in your argument.
Your first point.
Strike goes ahead
We are not going on strike, at least not until the very end and even then they will be stop work meetings. What will happen is work to rule, not extending etc. We will still be in the planes and flying/available to fly, we will just not be going the extra mile. I would suggest similar to the engineers not doing overtime last dispute, this will be enough to cost management a lot of $$$. Hopefully not at the disruption of too many customers, unfortunately though they are like civilians in a war (innocent casualties)-not acceptable in my opinion-but management can stop this war whenever they choose. After that there are other avenues. To suggest that all 1700 pilots are going to walk off the job so QF can lock everyone out and try on your scenario, well that would be stupid.
Stay the cause guys (and girls!), support AIPA. With unity we can and will see sanity prevail. And if somehow it doesn't I guess Emirates, Etihad and Qatar will have sorted out their short term tech crew needs.
Your first point.
Strike goes ahead
We are not going on strike, at least not until the very end and even then they will be stop work meetings. What will happen is work to rule, not extending etc. We will still be in the planes and flying/available to fly, we will just not be going the extra mile. I would suggest similar to the engineers not doing overtime last dispute, this will be enough to cost management a lot of $$$. Hopefully not at the disruption of too many customers, unfortunately though they are like civilians in a war (innocent casualties)-not acceptable in my opinion-but management can stop this war whenever they choose. After that there are other avenues. To suggest that all 1700 pilots are going to walk off the job so QF can lock everyone out and try on your scenario, well that would be stupid.
Stay the cause guys (and girls!), support AIPA. With unity we can and will see sanity prevail. And if somehow it doesn't I guess Emirates, Etihad and Qatar will have sorted out their short term tech crew needs.
Last edited by regitaekilthgiwt; 26th May 2011 at 01:50.
Angryrat and ANCDU: there is no argument between QF long haul and short haul, RAD ALT ALIVE who made the initial comment works for Jetstar (I'm fairly sure) not short haul. Let's focus our anger on the company.
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I'll have to mark that paper as a FAIL!!
QF pilots have no legal entitlement to fly the 787 or even any current fleet type
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Tempo, in a ideal world, all would unite, but human nature being what it is, there are those who won't. Be prepared for that. Saying looking after nbr 1, I mean to have a plan, plan for the possibility of escalation, and and a longer time out of the flight deck. Sure up your finances, check out the possibility of some part time work, (if you have some tradie mates, ask what they have, you will lose 5kgs and get paid for it) And you will really appreciate that seat on the flight deck when you return. Our problem was we did not have a plan, because we did not expect what happened, nor can you. Chances are the whole thing will turn into froth and bubble, with both sides giving a bit, and all returning to normal with neither side happy and it will continue to bubble on, that is probably the outcome. I wish it had been ours.
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To suggest that all 1700 pilots are going to walk off the job so QF can lock everyone out and try on your scenario, well that would be stupid.
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For what it's worth, I work for neither Jetstar, nor shorthaul (though what relevance my employer has to my post is a bit hard for me to see).
And it's quite obvious that my post has been taken out of context by at least one contributor; to say I've started a fear campaign is ridiculous. For the vast majority of the pilots concerned with this dispute to not have taken the time to think about the possible negative consequences of pursuing this course of action would be unwise to say the least.
A military campaign was never started that didn't at least consider the worst-case scenario. An industrial campaign should be no different.
But AIPA (as is their right) only give one side and one list of outcomes. The company (as is their right) give the opposite viewpoint. Why not ask AIPA what their think-tank has determined to be the 'worst-case' outcome? We know what the 'best-case' is - it's be nice to benefit from the knowledge of the other. Do the same with your Chief Pilot.
Let me spell it out - I am not employed by QF or JQ. I left my employ in the past because I realised that we (management and I) didn't see eye-to-eye on career path, employment satisfaction, respect and job security.
I could well have jumped up and down and got behind the union band-wagon. But I couldn't be bothered wasting my time. There's a whole aviation world out there - if you don't like where you're at, then start applying for positions (if you look at Parc's website, there are many great contracts, including ozzie basings available). If you do like where you're at, then make the decision to stay and work within the boundaries of the ever-changing workplace rules that management implement. But if you do fall in behind AIPA, then be very clear that one outcome is great success, but the other outcome is not worth contemplating. 1966 was not only a different time, it may as well have been a different planet as far as industrial relations laws, industrial landscape and issue-similarity are concerned. Make no mistake: (from my observations) QF management want an end to the longhaul award. From their perspective, it is tedious to deal with, and lacks efficiencies and productivity.
I have quite a few QF mates who I care alot about. I am also concerned for the wellbeing of the rest who I don't know. That is why I posted what I did; to give an objective slant on the basis of the obvious changes that have been made since 2004 within The Group. And what my personal opinion is, of what management's plans/contingencies are in the event that longhaul take PIA.
Still and all - it's clearly wasted on those who don't want to see any alternatives.
As I said - good luck to all.
And it's quite obvious that my post has been taken out of context by at least one contributor; to say I've started a fear campaign is ridiculous. For the vast majority of the pilots concerned with this dispute to not have taken the time to think about the possible negative consequences of pursuing this course of action would be unwise to say the least.
A military campaign was never started that didn't at least consider the worst-case scenario. An industrial campaign should be no different.
But AIPA (as is their right) only give one side and one list of outcomes. The company (as is their right) give the opposite viewpoint. Why not ask AIPA what their think-tank has determined to be the 'worst-case' outcome? We know what the 'best-case' is - it's be nice to benefit from the knowledge of the other. Do the same with your Chief Pilot.
Let me spell it out - I am not employed by QF or JQ. I left my employ in the past because I realised that we (management and I) didn't see eye-to-eye on career path, employment satisfaction, respect and job security.
I could well have jumped up and down and got behind the union band-wagon. But I couldn't be bothered wasting my time. There's a whole aviation world out there - if you don't like where you're at, then start applying for positions (if you look at Parc's website, there are many great contracts, including ozzie basings available). If you do like where you're at, then make the decision to stay and work within the boundaries of the ever-changing workplace rules that management implement. But if you do fall in behind AIPA, then be very clear that one outcome is great success, but the other outcome is not worth contemplating. 1966 was not only a different time, it may as well have been a different planet as far as industrial relations laws, industrial landscape and issue-similarity are concerned. Make no mistake: (from my observations) QF management want an end to the longhaul award. From their perspective, it is tedious to deal with, and lacks efficiencies and productivity.
I have quite a few QF mates who I care alot about. I am also concerned for the wellbeing of the rest who I don't know. That is why I posted what I did; to give an objective slant on the basis of the obvious changes that have been made since 2004 within The Group. And what my personal opinion is, of what management's plans/contingencies are in the event that longhaul take PIA.
Still and all - it's clearly wasted on those who don't want to see any alternatives.
As I said - good luck to all.
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Nothingondaclock,
"That's why QF want to offshore the work."
You should do a little more research my friend. QF want to offshore crew because thats how they will make a killing on labor cost savings.
They do not need to in order to operate several crew contracts on one paint scheme.
Watch how quickly they will repaint Jetstar aircraft with an orange door sticker.
"That's why QF want to offshore the work."
You should do a little more research my friend. QF want to offshore crew because thats how they will make a killing on labor cost savings.
They do not need to in order to operate several crew contracts on one paint scheme.
Watch how quickly they will repaint Jetstar aircraft with an orange door sticker.
RAD ALT ALIVE, you seem to believe that doing nothing will improve the situation. 2 years ago you stated:
Yet this was a false utopia. Things at JQ got worse, much worse recently. Even to the point where you yourself walked away. Yet you still don't feel the need to fight for what is right. Sure you voted with your feet, and good on you for that. However 1700 long haul Qantas pilots can not just up and leave, so we must stand together and fight.
The attitude you display in comments like:
will achieve nothing for the long term health of our profession in Australia.
I do not mean to sound rude and I take your point on being cognisant of the potential pitfalls in the AIPA strategy but I believe that at some point we must stand up for what we believe in.
Has it occurred to you that the contract on offer now, may not be the one you're on in the long term? The contract that was in place at JQ when I joined was nothing to rave about. But a few short years later, although still not perfect, it's alot better than it was.
Those who can see past their bulging hip pockets may well see a future where negotiation and compromise result in a improvements to pay and conditions.
Those who can see past their bulging hip pockets may well see a future where negotiation and compromise result in a improvements to pay and conditions.
The attitude you display in comments like:
I could well have jumped up and down and got behind the union band-wagon. But I couldn't be bothered wasting my time.
I do not mean to sound rude and I take your point on being cognisant of the potential pitfalls in the AIPA strategy but I believe that at some point we must stand up for what we believe in.